End the agrument of TRE

[diablotoona]

As a fairly new member of this forum I have seen numerous arguments for and against the TRE mod.
I seems to me as no one really knows if there is timing pulled in the lower gears.
I work in the automotive calibration industry and i would figure that there is some sort of scan tool for the FI bikes for diagnostics. Using a tool like this and logging the timing with a TRE and without one would prove what the PCM logic does and end the arguments for good.
I have personally not put one on myself yet as i do not feel comfortable of the notion of running the same timing tables for all gears when the manufacturer designed individual ones per gear, it was done for a reason and since load is quite different from 1st to 5th gear i would think that the 5th gear map would have less timing in it than a 1st or 2nd gear map and you would actually loose performance and mileage.
If anyone knows of a scan tool for these bikes let me know i am game to test this issue.

 

[Haelo]

Every dealership has a scantool.

Timing is retarded in lower gears to soften the throttle response artificially, Suzuki has admitted this themselves. The TRE removes this.
The timing retardation is only off closed throttle and not at WOT or anywhere close.

The argument is whether or not the fifth gear map and the first/second/third gear maps are different enough to change how the bike performs at higher throttle positions.

 

[Wag]

You've just convinced me I don't need or want one.

Thanks!

--Wag--

Finally, after all these years!

 

[Professor]

First off, I’m going to put everyone on notice on this post. He is asking a good question. Let’s try to make this a constructive thread and not pile it up with BS, one liners, and popcorn. If you try to post ho this one, flame, or turn it into the smack shack, I plan on taking action to keep it clean. Theory, opinions, and real world testing can be valuable.  Let see where this one goes and maybe we can pin it.  

I'll move on the same topic to the performance section as well.

Professor



<span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>On edit Fixed link after moving thread</span>

 

[diablotoona]

I have yet to see that on a tre post that it was confirmed that timing is removed.
I can see why they would retard the timing in the lower rpm/%tp range for smoothness in power delivery.

I would like to argue in favor of using the gear based timing tables vs only one gears.
If it was of no importance the manufacturer would of kept with one timing table if at all possible rather than mapping one of per gear.
Does anyone know where i could get a pcm for one of these guys, I could remove the chip that contains the engine calibration and see if i could locate the timing maps for comparison.

 

[Haelo]

It has been proven, and if you install a (good) TRE you can feel the difference and an understanding of electronic ignition will tell you that it's most likely a timing advance.

The magic of a dealership with a dyno and a scantool lets you see that it's definitely a real timing advance from about 0-15% throttle.

Most of Suzuki's EFI sportbikes have this low throttle, low gear, low rpm timing retard.

The best way to decide if you want one is to buy one, put it on, drive around, and then take it off if you dont' like it. Sell it to a board member

 

[Professor]

I’ll throw out this:
I don’t have the equipment to test it or the experience to prove one way or the other. I have been following TRE threads much longer than I’ve owned a busa.

My opinion comes from weighing who the information came from. You have obviously seen JCs posts. Look for a TRE on Brocks site, in Carpenters packages. I seem to remember a few other top tuners opinions but I’ll refrain as I don’t remember the details.

I think it is going to depend on your goals:

1) If you are trying to eliminate the top speed limiter on a correctly tuned busa, do the GPS mod.

2) If you are worried about 1st and 2nd on the street (still correctly tuned here), it won’t matter. Even if it does add horsepower, traction, and wheelie control will be your limitation.

3) If you are worried about 1st and 2nd on the strip where traction is available (still correctly tuned here), I don’t think it will matter unless you have a longer arm, sticky tire, and a wheelie bar. I have seen a few threads where back to back testing in the ¼ has resulted in a drop in performance with the TRE.

4) If you have a stock bike or one that has not be tuned correctly, who knows?… make yourself happy and try it if you feel better about it. If you are lean, in theory it might help when it fattens up the lower gears with the 5th gear map. Seat of the pants dyno feel is not always the best indicator of performance gains. A split second drop in power can sometimes make an engine feel like it is pulling harder when it recovers.

 

[diablotoona]

I have seen that post before that quarter mile time suffer from the addition of a TRE, this would indicate to me that the timing map for 5th gear is less agressive than the proper ones, at least for WOT operation.

The reason i am curious about this is because i calibrate vehicles for a living and i am not in favor on any inline device to produce power, i like to edit the actual engine cal the pcm uses, to me this is the only proper way of dialing any vehicle in. The PC is an inline device which just interprets the signals and adds/subtracts to it to produce desired effect.
I am going to try to get my hands on a pcm (i do not want to disable my busa so)and take it apart to read the chip that contains the engine cal and see if there is something to see, then depending on its structure maybe try to edit it.

 

[Professor]

(diablotoona @ Dec. 01 2006,11:57) I have seen that post before that quarter mile time suffer from the addition of a TRE, this would indicate to me that the timing map for 5th gear is less agressive than the proper ones, at least for WOT operation.

I tend to agree with the ones saying it is from the extra fuel added in the 5/6 gear maps.

 

[diablotoona]

Well less timing yields richer a/f in most cases, and since i have not heard that the fuel tables run per gear like timing, i would think it is timing,but that is a possibility as well.

 

[Professor]

(diablotoona @ Dec. 01 2006,13:11) Well less timing yields richer a/f in most cases, and since i have not heard that the fuel tables run per gear like timing, i would think it is timing,but that is a possibility as well.

I've heard it a few times, but don’t remember any documentation of it. But now that you mention it, I have seen documentation of the gear position sensor altering the ignition timing. Hmmmm.. ….

 

[heavybusa]

Since I cant post ho I'll add something...

I added the G-Pak to mine and the gas mileage was reduced and the bike seemed to have more pep.

I am basing this solely off of my perception, I have not grounded this with instrumentation.

 

[dadofthree]

I don't mind the low speed lope of the bike and I love getting 50 MPG. I think it was developed and is used primarily to bypass the sixth gear limit. Professor could you give me more info on the GPS fix for this. And in most cars they reprogram the chips to gain performance and by pass limits. I'm not sure, but the Busa's PCM should be available for reprogramming. If so, after seven years why hasn't it been down.

 

[diablotoona]

Does anyone know a part number or a name of the scan tool used at the dealer and where I can get one?
Also if anyone knows a good place to maybe get a pcm out of a wrecked bike or a refurbished one please let me know.

 

[Professor]

(dadofthree @ Dec. 01 2006,15:37) Professor could you give me more info on the GPS fix for this.

The gear position sensor is modded so both 5th and 6th indicate it is 5th gear to the ECU. This effectively raises the rev limiter from 10,200 to 10,600 in 6th gear. Changing it is a bit more difficult than plugging in a device as the switch is behind the clutch basket. I’ll be pulling mine in the next couple of months but for different reasons!

 

[ranman]

i`ve had one on for a couple thousand miles then i removed it for a bunch more miles.[ around town and x-way] then i put it back on. and i perfer it. i do not race of try to hit top speed, but i do like the extre pep that i feel in the low gears and the smoothness that i feel..
everyone is diffrent, try one or dont thats your choice . as for me i like it. no mater what the experts say it works for me.
some people like coke and some pepsi and some eaven say diet coke taste better. thats the beauty of choice.
it cost 50$ we all have wasted that much on beer and food and you only keep that for 1 day or so. at least the tre you keep as long as you like.
so some could say thet the tre has more value than food?
you can always sell the used tre but you can never sell used food

 

[diablotoona]

I hear you ranman.
I always want to know how things work and why, and from experience i am against inline devices, had plenty of bad experiences with cars and inline devices i have tested, granted a cars computer system is more complex than a bikes(ex. if you made a new Corvette think it was in fifth gear all the time you would not even get it out of your diveway) but the principle is the same and i know by using an inline device you are cutting something short somewhere as that signal is used or dependent on other inputs as well.

 

[dadofthree]

(Professor @ Dec. 01 2006,13:54)

(dadofthree @ Dec. 01 2006,15:37) Professor could you give me more info on the GPS fix for this.

The gear position sensor is modded so both 5th and 6th indicate it is 5th gear to the ECU. This effectively raises the rev limiter from 10,200 to 10,600 in 6th gear. Changing it is a bit more difficult than plugging in a device as the switch is behind the clutch basket. I’ll be pulling mine in the next couple of months but for different reasons!

Be looking forward to step by step instructions : How to fool your Busa for Idiots. Thanks.

 

[Professor]

(dadofthree @ Dec. 01 2006,16:48) Be looking forward to step by step instructions : How to fool your Busa for Idiots. Thanks.  

Well, it has already been done by Brendanp. It is pinned to the top now

 

[Big Red]

Your saying that Brendanp has already remapped a Busa PCM that removes the rev limit in the top gears?