Calling gun guys (or gals?)

[exabits]

To each his own. Though I don't agree with the chamber empty either. You should carry however and whenever that makes you comfortable. Also for the sake of kids or anybody else for that matter, don't ever leave your dangerous tool just sitting around unsupervised. That's a mistake that nobody should make, that is part of the being qualified if you ask me. If mine is not on my person or in a safe, it NEVER leaves my sight.

Edit: I don't have a safe so. Don't piss me off jokes...

 

[StromBusa]

I used to carry with an empty chamber, nowdays I have mostly double single actions, I have developed the habit of carrying with a full pipe and the hammer down and skip the safety. This approach "keeps it simple", I have the option to **** the hammer.
or pull double action. However, it messes with me when I switch to the 1911... I would suggest the wife get something that see can shoot allot, and get comforable with a natural reaction. Women have the benefit of not buying too many guns and variations

 

[brpo]

"Most"? Any sources to back that up? I think "Some" is the more correct word. New York PD is one major department which is why the two heavy triggers are called New York triggers. But I'd bet far less than half of all duty weapons are heavy versions. There also has been some controversy that the heavy trigger is causing deaths because of the loss off accuracy due to these triggers in officer involved shootings.

You're right - I was kinda speaking off the cuff and I showing my age a bit. Because I'm sort of going back memory wise to when Glocks started to really catch on and then suffered some real set backs because of some of the trigger issues, negligent shooting litigation and liability insurance issues for those municipalities that didn't self insure. I'm sure Glocks represent a large portion of service weapons, but I do believe the later generation pistols have the heavy trigger pulls.

 

[wiesjon]

Keep it simple. With a revolver you can't go wrong. Just pull the trigger. No safety, no thinking, just pull the trigger. And at around 7 yards anyone can hit a torso size target with 0 practice. A small, light, 38 special will do all the damage that needs to be done. A Smith and Wesson Airweight sounds ideal. I'm thinking about getting my wife one. Small, light weight, not too much recoil, and simple.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

OK - I'm being dragged into defending my choice - which I will in painful detail. And yet it will probably fall on deaf ears and be responded to with yeah but the expert says... First - I never, ever made any recommendations about what condition one should carry a weapon. It's a personal choice - I simple said it's the way I choose to carry. And, I'm completely comfortable with that choice. Also - some of y'all are mixing apples and oranges with respect to defensive concealed carry, self-defense in general, offensive carry and police work. The latter of the two have nothing to do with my discussion. In addition if you were following the earlier discussion I clearly referenced the fact that I have kids around my house now and that I use to carry a standard loaded weapon for decades before that. Let's make this as clear as possible - the reason I don't carry with a cartridge in the barrel is not because I can't operate the weapon, but because it provides just one extra measure of safety if I "f" up and leave a weapon in the car, in my motorcycle jacket, on the washer machine etc... It coincidently has at least two other advantages 1) it can’t be used immediately against you in close arms situation like when a cops weapon is stolen in a scuffle and used against them and there is no, zero, zilch chance of a negligent discharge. I am hyper-sensitive to this now and I've still put down a weapon and forgot it for a moment. And trust me - a wave of fear has come over me the couple of times I've done this in the past. Get it? This is the reason I don’t carry as often anymore as well. The logistics of un-securing the weapon, donning the pistol, and then re-securing the weapon is a big headache just to run and pick up the kids at baseball. Any chance of me leaving a weapon unsecured scares me.

Israeli method or condition 3

“if you honestly think you're going to remember to rack the slide on your pistol in a life and death situation I politely say you're wrongâ€

Why would remembering to rack a slide be any harder than flipping the safety on the cocked and locked 1911 we’re all so found of… That’s how I practice, un-holster, rack and shoot. If I practice with my para-ordinance in condition 1 – I un-holster, flick the safety off and shoot. You might not rack the slide because you carry loaded. Supports my first point - if I’m at one foot and someone disarms me I’ve got a chance.

Also, here’s my option C3 (The Israeli methodology) The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY, or why carrying chamber empty isn?t so bad. Nobody does it?!?

So with respect to the videos…

First I’m not a cop and wouldn’t be “offensively†approaching some guy on the street. It doesn’t apply to my defensive concealed carry world. This is what is referred to as a straw man argument. However, the second part of the video does put in perspective exactly what I’m saying. One foot you’re stabbed. Loaded or unloaded you won’t have time to un-holster and present a weapon. Like I said, I’m in a wrestling match for life up to about 15 feet. 21 feet the criminal is on the ground. Still want to bet your life I couldn’t pull, rack and shoot? So… from a total defensive concealed carry world and self-defense perspective – not a police perspective – I’m not going to stand and fight with someone if I don’t have to. I’m going to naturally create distance from the person but, from a self-defense perspective… I’m going to the best of my ability avoid dangerous areas and people.

Rule 1 – Before any gun stuff – if you don’t feel safe, trust that instinct and leave, roll the window up, lock the doors, go back to the store find an escort, walk in groups, yell fire instead of help and/or prepare to defend yourself. Rack one in the pipe!

“Find me ONE case where an empty chamber carrier used that method to defend himself and came out alive.â€

First – Every encounter where a victim just shows a gun and de-escalates the situation is the functional equivalent. Second, probably many of home defenses start with an empty chamber or a locked gun. And, how many new organizations report on what condition a weapon was in before it was fired? I can turn that question around and ask you to find me articles that state when the weapon was loaded before the incident. This is know as a gratutitis question. I don't accept that any pistols were loaded before the incident - find me one case where the article states at what point the gun was loaded. Or in other words - find me a case where an empty chamber gun carrier was killed.

I’ll continue later – if necessary…

That's a good post and fair reasons. I'm only trying to convince you it may cost you your life one day.
And yes you with an empty chamber and me 21ft or less I'll take that bet and you'll lose. You watched the Inosanto video right? Trained police officers could barely get one shot off from a loaded gun at that distance. You simply will not be able to draw and rack the slide then get on target in time.
The simple fact every cop in the country carries one in the chamber should prove that it is believed to be the best. After all they are always on the ready and may need to defend themselves.
Drawing a 1911 and flicking safety off is a totally natural movement which has been done for over a century.
Empty chamber is completely different. You can still draw and flick safety off with one hand can't you?
Can you draw and rack the slide one handed? I can but it takes either squeezing it between your knees or using rear sight as a catch on a hard surface and jamming pistol downward. As said above in the video. Your weak hand may be preoccupied with other tasks that do not allow you use it to charge the weapon.
I can understand having it around kids. But that's what a mini Gunvault is for. I cannot understand leaving a gun laying around or forgetting it, NOPE!
And the times you mention where a simple displayed pistol scared off a bad guy does happen. But are you gonna bet YOUR life that of that doesn't work the BG ain't gonna cross the few feet between you and kill you? Your gun is drawn yet empty chamber and you point it at a BG. He choses to not respect your wishes or commands and charges. Whoops 'time out' I gotta rack the slide first.
If your not comfy carrying one on the pipe fine. Practice some more until you are. In the end it's your decision and as Colin says in just carrying your better off than most.

 

[skydivr]

Keep it simple. With a revolver you can't go wrong. Just pull the trigger. No safety, no thinking, just pull the trigger. And at around 7 yards anyone can hit a torso size target with 0 practice. A small, light, 38 special will do all the damage that needs to be done. A Smith and Wesson Airweight sounds ideal. I'm thinking about getting my wife one. Small, light weight, not too much recoil, and simple.

You are correct, simple, almost foolproof. Which is why I won't have one around in my home, as all it takes is for someone to get their hands on it and pull the trigger - as in child.

PS: Exabits: In your SIGHT isn't even good enough - in your POSSESSION is what counts (i'm sure you now this and it's not a slight at your post)...in POSSESSION is sometimes complicated and rigorous, but that's why some don't feel comfortable in condition one.

FOR ME: when my daughter was younger, I did not fear leaving a pistol around with a mag in but no round, and I was sure she did not have the strength nor dexterity (let alone desire) to actually charge it. As she's gotten bigger, I've had to rethink that some...

 

[brpo]

That's a good post and fair reasons. I'm only trying to convince you it may cost you your life one day.
And yes you with an empty chamber and me 21ft or less I'll take that bet and you'll lose. You watched the Inosanto video right? Trained police officers could barely get one shot off from a loaded gun at that distance. You simply will not be able to draw and rack the slide then get on target in time.
The simple fact every cop in the country carries one in the chamber should prove that it is believed to be the best. After all they are always on the ready and may need to defend themselves.
Drawing a 1911 and flicking safety off is a totally natural movement which has been done for over a century.
Empty chamber is completely different. You can still draw and flick safety off with one hand can't you?
Can you draw and rack the slide one handed? I can but it takes either squeezing it between your knees or using rear sight as a catch on a hard surface and jamming pistol downward. As said above in the video. Your weak hand may be preoccupied with other tasks that do not allow you use it to charge the weapon.
I can understand having it around kids. But that's what a mini Gunvault is for. I cannot understand leaving a gun laying around or forgetting it, NOPE!
And the times you mention where a simple displayed pistol scared off a bad guy does happen. But are you gonna bet YOUR life that of that doesn't work the BG ain't gonna cross the few feet between you and kill you? Your gun is drawn yet empty chamber and you point it at a BG. He choses to not respect your wishes or commands and charges. Whoops 'time out' I gotta rack the slide first.
If your not comfy carrying one on the pipe fine. Practice some more until you are. In the end it's your decision and as Colin says in just carrying your better off than most.

You're still mixing apples and oranges. Police work versus self-defense (personal safety). I'm generally not going into dangerous areas, I don't seek out bad guys, I'm not trying to stop people from breaking the law, I'm not trying to catch the bad guy, I'm not pulling over cars, I'm not serving arrest warrants, I’m not interrogating people I don’t know (Terry Stop), I'm not responding to robberies in progress, disturbed persons, domestic disputes, drug dealing, I don't represent a threat to criminals of incarceration, I'm not wearing a uniform that says I'm the law and criminals don't know that I'm armed. These are two vastly different set of circumstances. Police work is generally an offensive activity. They are generally moving to the trouble. This is why police carry with one in the chamber - it’s simple logic and risk assessment. Self-defense is about mitigating risks, evading and avoiding trouble when possible. Self-defense is about weighing all risks. Generally in my day to day life I feel safe and I’m not at high risk of being a victim and that is partially born out by the fact I have never had to shoot a weapon in self-defense or been the victim of a crime in my area. I’ve worked hard to create this lifestyle and I live in a very low crime, low risk area.

Also, your examples always assume a knife. BTW - I also carry knife - I love knives. What about changing that scenario to a gun? The only safe distance in that case is the effective shooting range of the criminal. Loaded or unloaded doesn’t really matter, there’s good chance you’re dead or incapacitated. What about a man armed with a rock or unarmed?

“Drawing a 1911 and flicking safety off is a totally natural movement which has been done for over a century.â€

This isn’t what you said… You said I wouldn’t remember to rack the slide. Plus – I don’t know what is so unnatural about racking a slide. You do it every time you initially load a magazine in the weapon. I’ve never heard an experienced marksman say “God loading this weapon is so cumbersome and unnatural.†In fact, it is one of the most satisfying parts of shooting for me. And people love, love, love to rack shot guns. BTW pump shot guns are pretty good defensive weapons and you have to rack them every shot. In addition, if you read the little article you would see that condition 3 was the preferred recommended way of carrying semi-autos at their inception. This has changed with Jeff Cooper dogma.

“I cannot understand leaving a gun laying around or forgetting it, NOPE!â€

Neither can I - yet it happens. It’s happened to me. In fact – a lot of folks don’t secure their weapons at all. As I said, this is why I don’t carry as much anymore, many times its more hassle than the risks warrant. This goes back to the “nobody is perfect thing and people make mistakes†But, if you’re perfect then no worries on your part.

“If your not comfy carrying one on the pipe fine. Practice some more until you are.â€

Respectfully -Did you read my response? Did you click the link and read the article? My response below:

“The reason I don't carry with a cartridge in the barrel is not because I can't operate the weapon, but because it provides just one extra measure of safety if I "f" up and leave a weapon in the car, in my motorcycle jacket, on the washer machine etc... It coincidently has at least two other advantages 1) it can’t be used immediately against you in close arms situation like when a cops weapon is stolen in a scuffle and used against them and 2) there is no, zero, zilch chance of a negligent discharge. I am hyper-sensitive to this now and I've still put down a weapon and forgot it for a moment. And trust me - a wave of fear has come over me the couple of times I've done this in the past.â€

Finally – OK this may be a bit tedious but hang in there – For the sake of argument I stipulate that you could overwhelm me at 21 feet, meaning I could not un-holster, rack, present and shoot you. What about 24 feet or 27 feet? At some distance over 21 feet – I would be able to successfully defend myself with an unloaded weapon. Let’s say 30 feet, because, despite the skepticism, it doesn’t take that long to rack a gun. The point I’m trying to make is this – at let’s say fifteen feet – a loaded or unloaded weapon does not matter because you are dead. I think we agree on this based on your video. At 21 feet you have a pretty good chance of defending with a loaded gun and pretty sketchy chance between 15 feet and 21 feet with a loaded gun. So under these assumptions carrying unloaded is only a real drawback between 21 feet and let’s use the 30 foot measurement for argument sake. So in your video example the difference between an unloaded gun being effective and ineffective is 9 feet. The next thing we are assuming in your example is a real life, fit, knife wielding homicidal maniac who wants to kill you for no known reason - not your garden variety criminal. This is important because most criminals are not completely unaffected by the sight of a weapon and don’t want to be killed. Also, they don’t want a potential murder case. Most folks will hesitate at the sight of a weapon. This is proven out by statistics that show thousands of crimes avoided by the mere presence of a gun.

So let’s recap, If a real knife wielding homicidal maniac comes running out of nowhere in the middle of the day and attacks for no known reason - everyone is dead at 21 feet and under. I’m dead at 30 feet and under. This also assumes I’m not running away, that I’m going to stand and fight which is not going to happen until I’ve tried to evade – maybe for a car, trash can anything to get behind. It also assumes that the perpetrator isn’t lucid enough to have you walk right in to his kill zone. In this example no one does particularly well, because the guy is a homicidal maniac with a knife with no other apparent motive.

This brings me to my last point. The video and facts you are showing are the very same that anti-gun folks use to say that you can’t successfully defend yourself. And we know this isn’t true. The line goes “if a trained police officer can’t defend himself how are you going to…†The reason is because not withstanding a homicidal knife wielding assailant bent on your destruction for no reason, most true life situations escalate and there is predatory behavior, and predatory geography criminals operate in, and clues that are going to alert you (a civilian) to potential trouble. As a concealed carrier you also have the advantage of surprise in many cases. You may not be the hapless victim the criminal thought you to be. So, if you find yourself in an increasingly unsecure area or situation and you’re carrying condition 3 you need to heighten your readiness state and prepare to defend yourself. Put one in the pipe, maybe ready a knife or mace to deploy or a mini air horn if you don’t carry. Guns are not a solution unto themselves unloaded or loaded. The most important part of self-defense is not having to defend yourself and being aware of your environment and those in it.

Sincerely, I appreciate your advice, but you didn’t even come close to changing my mind, because I’ve made all the calculations you discussed and in my risk assessment, at this point in my life, I choose Condition 3.

I can still go on - if necessary...

 

[RedBusarider]

The most important part of self-defense is not having to defend yourself and being aware of your environment and those in it.

Agreed 100%. ^^^

However there are going to be cases where that is not always possible.

Using a restroom at a Rest Stop could be an area where you can't control who comes in and if you are
re-leaving yourself you can't just walk away.

Lets face it if you knew you were going to have to use your gun today - you wouldn't leave your house.
If you knew you were going to crash on your bike - you would ride your bike today.

Point is we DON'T know. It only take a second for things to change. Isn't that why we wear protective gear?

 

[TheAtomicAss]

StrtRac3r - Has your wife handled the G19 yet? The reason I ask is because many women don't have the hand strength to manipulate a modern semi-auto. Or they just aren't comfortable with it. My sister can barely rack the slide on any of my Glocks - not something I'd want her struggling to do in a B&E situation. But she handles my wheelguns very well. Revolvers are more simple, less intimidating to the inexperienced shooter, and easier to manipulate. Just a thought. If you wife struggles with the Glock, have her try a snubnose .38. Something like a Smith & wesson model 637.

I would probably agree that a revolver is a decent choice, especially if it's a double-action with a hammer.

However, difficulty racking a slide, assuming one is not a recent survivor of cancer in the just barely category, comes down to improper technique, nothing more. Exactly what majestic12 said, actually.

And a semi-auto without a round in the chamber is the most useless thing imagineable in a B&E. You WILL forget it's unloaded, or you won't have time to load it when you find someone IN YOUR BEDROOM ALREADY.

 

[StrtRac3r]

Thanks for all the posts. Thought it may be helpful to post, until about 3 pages ago. Enjoy your hijacked thread. And thank you to the 3 or 4 helpful posts, luckily you other guys are here to educate everyone that has no clue what you know. And all of your opinions must be the most important (directed at 75% of replying posts) you will all save lives, and that's what you need to hear, everyone is out to get you, keep your fingers on the trigger, and completely ignore the first post in this thread. (Which may have or may not have been towards the thought of a sight, not the opinion of one in the chamber, a threat close, buying a revolver after already buying a glock, if the glock trigger pull was too light, or any other damn thing)


If you are still reading this, please let it die, this thread has never been on topic except one or two posts.