I'm celebrating the longer days that are coming! Cant wait for warmer riding ...
Christmas is For Christ? NOT!
- Thread starter Revlis
- Start date
(Aughtsix @ Dec. 22 2006,21:56)Rev - I truly don't want to appear to be 'analyzing' your post cuz it's all in good fun, but frankly, it's a mess of logical fallacies
For instance, "Dicto Simpliciter", or Sweeping Generalization. This is the fallacy of making a statement expecting it to be true, or classic stereotyping.
Umm....NO, it's NOT stereotyping it's a statement of belief based on experience. I specified "vast majority" not all Bro.
Following, "Argumentum ad Numerum", or an Appeal to Numbers. This is the fallacy of attempting to prove something by showing how many people believe that it's true.
[/Quote]
Um No, This doesn't apply either. While indeed I am just pulling my argument outta my A$$, I am in no way trying to say that everyone believes it so it must be true... NO, I am saying almost the exact opposite. I am stating a belief that the Vast majority ALREADY believe something False.
Example: Stating that the "a VAST majority of Christians do NOT realize that the 25th is NOT Christs Birthday".
Also, "Argumentum ad Logicam", or Argument to Logic. This is the fallacy of assuming that something is false in its entirety simply because some part of it fails a logical test or is assumed to be invalid.[/Quote]
Fair enough, I do get carried away with Idols and Symbols speak. However I am not sure what it is that I am assuming is false, other than the general intellect of the Christian community as whole.
Following, "Non Sequitur", meaning "It does not follow". This is the fallacy of stating a conclusion that does not follow from the premise.
Example: Stating that the "dates and Holiday itself, is nothing more than pagan tradition with window dressing and Fairy tale". [/Quote]
Given that my premise and what you call my conclusion are seemingly unrelated I fail to see any connection. Doesn't mean it's wrong though...
Lastly, "Petitio Principii", or"Begging the Question. This is the fallacy of assuming the validity or 'rightness' of what you are trying to prove based simply on your belief that it's true.
I realize you're doing this to pull strings and have fun, so Merry Christmas!![/Quote]
Um, pretty much said "Belief" from the beginning.
cx cx
Glad to have you here bro. Would like to see more of you around, would also like to see more about where it is these logical errors occur in my above posts...
You are assuming that I am using logic, no no, Much like faith, and "Most Christians" there is little logic in use.
Seriously Bro, Have a Great Christmas, hope you are doing well.
Rev.
From a fox new poll:
"Fully 92 percent of Americans say they believe in God"
Fox News Poll reference
Harris Interactive poll:
"While Most U.S. Adults Believe in God, Only 58 Percent are "Absolutely Certain" "
Harris interactive poll
My point is, if a majority of Americans, of all different races, from different parts of the world believe in God, and polls indicate 58% are "absolutely certain"
I think that would give an indication to someone who didn’t believe that maybe.. just maybe they might want to take a deeper look.
As the saying goes, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all of the people all of the time.
Religion, the beliefs in Gods or a God has been around from the beginning of time. If there were no God, or Gods then this “fad†would have went to the wayside a long time ago.
The reason that the majority of people believe is because most who believe have had a personal experience that revealed God to them.
I am not talking about something happening that there was not explanation for so they just used the God card.
I am talking about a personal event that revealed God in such a way that it wasn’t the only explainable reason, in their heart they just KNEW it was the reason. And until you have experience that of which I speak, it will not make any sense and sound like nonsense, but to those of you that DO know of which I speak you have an ear to hear..
See, the funny thing is, most people who do not believe in God feel the people who DO believe in God (the majority by the way) are not as intelligent as the “enlightened†people who “know there is no God†(notice that was in quotes, not my words
) which to me would seem to indicate a certain amount of close mindedness.
I also seem to notice that the majority of people who do not believe in God just don’t.. they either inherited that from their upbringing, or some traumatic event in their life made their heart so hardened as to either not believe a God could exist that allow certain things to happen, or they are so pissed off at God that they don’t WANT to acknowledge God exists because they would have to face the anger they have towards an entity they cant beat up or scream at.
Most don’t try to pursue an understanding with an open mind to the possible existence of God.
To those that have been brought up in a bad environment that left a bitter taste in their mouths about religion, that is understandable, it is sad, and regretful, but understandable
To those that have had traumatic experiences in their life’s that have caused them to lose faith.. to question the existence of God that is understandable, it is sad, and regretful, but understandable.
But to those that have neither, and profess there is no God for no other reason than that is what you have been told. I challenge you to go to church for a year. Try to find a non-denominational church that teaches and not preaches, if you need help finding one let me know and I will help you.
If you don’t really feel that there is a God, then they would be no harm in checking out a Church for 2 hours once a week. Not like a person cant spare that time.
Most people wont even attempt it, they don’t know why, they just get really angry when anyone even mentions trying church, automatically defensive.. funny thing is that if there was nothing spiritual about Church, and if God didn’t exists, people would not get so defensive about it.
There are all kinds of reasons why a person gets defensive, too numerous to go into, but at a very basic level one would have to wonder why so much emotion, sometimes aggression, sometimes apprehension is expressed from a non believer when they are invited to church. The reason is that because ALL of us, living, at some level acknowledges there is either a God, or at least a strong possibility there is a God, in your soul, in your heart you know this to be true, it is the lies you have been given, or your excuse for the misery in this world that convinces you there is no God.
If you have never been to church and don’t believe in God, take my challenge, let me find a church for you in your area.
If you have been to church and was turned off by it, tell me what turned you off and let me try to find a church in your area.
My reasoning for making this challenge?
God cannot be explained, God cannot be debated, God can only be felt, and the only place you will feel God is where God is. And you need some time to Let God have a chance of speaking to you….
For those that have been to Church and were turned off, my answer to you is we are all different, as such there are different churches with different styles that God has put in place to meet the different needs of different people. If you let me know what the problem you had with Church, I “might†be able to find a church that might meet your needs for you to try…
If anyone is interested PM me and I will see what I can do to help..
Have a Merry Christmas everyone….
"Fully 92 percent of Americans say they believe in God"
Fox News Poll reference
Harris Interactive poll:
"While Most U.S. Adults Believe in God, Only 58 Percent are "Absolutely Certain" "
Harris interactive poll
My point is, if a majority of Americans, of all different races, from different parts of the world believe in God, and polls indicate 58% are "absolutely certain"
I think that would give an indication to someone who didn’t believe that maybe.. just maybe they might want to take a deeper look.
As the saying goes, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all of the people all of the time.
Religion, the beliefs in Gods or a God has been around from the beginning of time. If there were no God, or Gods then this “fad†would have went to the wayside a long time ago.
The reason that the majority of people believe is because most who believe have had a personal experience that revealed God to them.
I am not talking about something happening that there was not explanation for so they just used the God card.
I am talking about a personal event that revealed God in such a way that it wasn’t the only explainable reason, in their heart they just KNEW it was the reason. And until you have experience that of which I speak, it will not make any sense and sound like nonsense, but to those of you that DO know of which I speak you have an ear to hear..
See, the funny thing is, most people who do not believe in God feel the people who DO believe in God (the majority by the way) are not as intelligent as the “enlightened†people who “know there is no God†(notice that was in quotes, not my words
I also seem to notice that the majority of people who do not believe in God just don’t.. they either inherited that from their upbringing, or some traumatic event in their life made their heart so hardened as to either not believe a God could exist that allow certain things to happen, or they are so pissed off at God that they don’t WANT to acknowledge God exists because they would have to face the anger they have towards an entity they cant beat up or scream at.
Most don’t try to pursue an understanding with an open mind to the possible existence of God.
To those that have been brought up in a bad environment that left a bitter taste in their mouths about religion, that is understandable, it is sad, and regretful, but understandable
To those that have had traumatic experiences in their life’s that have caused them to lose faith.. to question the existence of God that is understandable, it is sad, and regretful, but understandable.
But to those that have neither, and profess there is no God for no other reason than that is what you have been told. I challenge you to go to church for a year. Try to find a non-denominational church that teaches and not preaches, if you need help finding one let me know and I will help you.
If you don’t really feel that there is a God, then they would be no harm in checking out a Church for 2 hours once a week. Not like a person cant spare that time.
Most people wont even attempt it, they don’t know why, they just get really angry when anyone even mentions trying church, automatically defensive.. funny thing is that if there was nothing spiritual about Church, and if God didn’t exists, people would not get so defensive about it.
There are all kinds of reasons why a person gets defensive, too numerous to go into, but at a very basic level one would have to wonder why so much emotion, sometimes aggression, sometimes apprehension is expressed from a non believer when they are invited to church. The reason is that because ALL of us, living, at some level acknowledges there is either a God, or at least a strong possibility there is a God, in your soul, in your heart you know this to be true, it is the lies you have been given, or your excuse for the misery in this world that convinces you there is no God.
If you have never been to church and don’t believe in God, take my challenge, let me find a church for you in your area.
If you have been to church and was turned off by it, tell me what turned you off and let me try to find a church in your area.
My reasoning for making this challenge?
God cannot be explained, God cannot be debated, God can only be felt, and the only place you will feel God is where God is. And you need some time to Let God have a chance of speaking to you….
For those that have been to Church and were turned off, my answer to you is we are all different, as such there are different churches with different styles that God has put in place to meet the different needs of different people. If you let me know what the problem you had with Church, I “might†be able to find a church that might meet your needs for you to try…
If anyone is interested PM me and I will see what I can do to help..
Have a Merry Christmas everyone….
wow. some get so caught up in the definitions, details, history, verbage, the science or lack of, that they totally overlook the entire point Jesus was making. He didn't say kill non-christians crusader style, or rule the world under a funny white hat... he said LOVE your enemie, turn the other cheek, and find salvation doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the world tells you is good and successful.
How do you get saved? And from what? Well.... have you ever looked around and noticed what a crappy world it is and all the bad decisions people make for themselves and others? You can be saved from that by understanding the bigger picture, and the worth of each person in God's eyes - as it should be in yours too. You are saved from living inside the world's structure that keeps you from feeling alive, whole, and fulfilled with all it's empty pacifiers.... you are shown the TRUTH of the world around you, how to live IN it and still be a happy person - and, NO, not some vegitative "Give it all up to God" person refusing to take responsibility for their own actions... a LIVING BEING happy to be given this tiny spec of life to live out with color, emotion, and love - and you can learn how love fulfills EVEN MORE when you understand how easy and fun it is to give it away without even expecting ANY in return.... and how that can be SO fulfilling. Again, the exact opposite of what our "Me, Now" world teaches.
THAT is what it is all about. Being 'saved' from true stupidity - the stupidity of this world. It's not a tree or a date or a history lesson or some humans bad decision 1000 years ago or stupid humans today - it's about a spiritual path - something science by its own definition will never be able to put in a pill or a spreadsheet and truly capture it. It's not of this earth... but it's free, for those willing to throw out the programmed tapes in their heads that hold them prisoner. Saved from drowning inside one's false preceptions.
yeah.
How do you get saved? And from what? Well.... have you ever looked around and noticed what a crappy world it is and all the bad decisions people make for themselves and others? You can be saved from that by understanding the bigger picture, and the worth of each person in God's eyes - as it should be in yours too. You are saved from living inside the world's structure that keeps you from feeling alive, whole, and fulfilled with all it's empty pacifiers.... you are shown the TRUTH of the world around you, how to live IN it and still be a happy person - and, NO, not some vegitative "Give it all up to God" person refusing to take responsibility for their own actions... a LIVING BEING happy to be given this tiny spec of life to live out with color, emotion, and love - and you can learn how love fulfills EVEN MORE when you understand how easy and fun it is to give it away without even expecting ANY in return.... and how that can be SO fulfilling. Again, the exact opposite of what our "Me, Now" world teaches.
THAT is what it is all about. Being 'saved' from true stupidity - the stupidity of this world. It's not a tree or a date or a history lesson or some humans bad decision 1000 years ago or stupid humans today - it's about a spiritual path - something science by its own definition will never be able to put in a pill or a spreadsheet and truly capture it. It's not of this earth... but it's free, for those willing to throw out the programmed tapes in their heads that hold them prisoner. Saved from drowning inside one's false preceptions.
yeah.
good thoughts there , thrasher!
I suspect a lot of people dont want to acknoledge God because, to THEM, he sounds like such a NO guy! Thou shalt not: sleep around, get drunk, hurt people.... no no no! No fun at all. Funny, but I stay within the moral guidlines [most of the time, I am NOT perfect] and have a BLAST in life. I don't miss the heart ache or STDs or addictions or violence that he wants us to avoid anyway. Who in their right mind WOULD miss that stuff? Look at all the support groups. Sad.
I suspect a lot of people dont want to acknoledge God because, to THEM, he sounds like such a NO guy! Thou shalt not: sleep around, get drunk, hurt people.... no no no! No fun at all. Funny, but I stay within the moral guidlines [most of the time, I am NOT perfect] and have a BLAST in life. I don't miss the heart ache or STDs or addictions or violence that he wants us to avoid anyway. Who in their right mind WOULD miss that stuff? Look at all the support groups. Sad.
Thank you sir.. however this was one of those moments where I just typed what was flowing from me without really knowing what the heck I was saying lol.. if you know what I mean..
I think it was more spirit lead than anything which if that is the case this was meant for someone out there...
just pray about it...
Where two or more are gathered God is there... Mat 18:20
It never ceases to amaze me how the majority can sit by silently and allow the vocal manority to take things away.
All that evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing.
I couldn't agree more... It's this that sorta spurred this particular thread into existence.
In a country populated by 92% supposed Christians, a Freaking Rabi Bitching about a Symbol that doesn't even fuggin belong to the Christians, can get it removed.
It's Bull crap and it's wrong.
Merry Christmas Everyone.
Merry Christmas!!!
I find it truly appealing that we as potential opposition can discuss religion without getting flaming mad at each other and remaining friends at the other end of such discussion. At least, I hope that's the case. I have a great deal of respect for you, Ron, and for others here who have been so patient and collected during these discussions of their beliefs.
I recall at about age 7 or 8 I was first taught about the flood and Noah's miraculous escape. That is my first memory of doubting religion. (I was only given a Mormon perspective of it but for that particular story, it was a fair and comparable version to that which is told by Judeo-Christian religions and sects everywhere.) I just couldn't see it. The world is a big place. How did ALL of the pairs of animals get on the ark? Was it really THAT big? Then, I read it a little closer and discovered that only the unclean animals were in pairs. The clean animals were sent seven pairs each! Talk about making the problem worse!
My boat of belief was really foundering. I asked my parents who said, "Have faith and in time, god will reveal the secret of that mystery to you." To me, though, faith meant searching for the answer and showing one's seriousness and devotion by doing so. I continued to ask around. One of my teachers at church suggested that the flood was regional and didn't encompass the entire earth, just the local area. That made a little sense but didn't quite jive with the written word as I understood it. I filed the idea away as a possibility for later reference.
I went back to my parents a couple of times. They didn't know the answers to my questions but wouldn't say so. After only a couple of rounds, they finally got frustrated (read that, "angry") with me and told me to keep my peace. I learned to keep my mouth shut and have a care when asking questions or challenging certain religious teachings of which I had doubt. There were several: The virgin birth (the Mormon answer to THAT is wild!!), the adventures of Moses, the miracles of Jesus and Paul, etc.
As I grew up and left home, I continued to wonder and ask questions here and there but the habit of my childhood was to accept everything on faith and to not challenge the teachings of my childhood. I really wanted to believe. I wanted to believe that god was ever present in my life. Indeed, Mormonism taught that you can actually KNOW by god's influence that he is there in our lives.
That, then, was always the critical test: Pray and know. Throughout my entire life for as long as I could remember, I had been doing exactly that: Praying to know. No answer had been forthcoming by the time I was 34 or so years old. Again, parents and teachers kept telling me that in god's due time, I would get my answers from the spirit of god. All around me though, friends and family were getting THEIR answers, where was mine?
I think any belief I might have had began to die a slow death as people suggested that perhaps I was too sinful and needed to repent. Suggestions began to come forth from people indicating that perhaps I was not reading the scriptures enough or not praying and fasting enough or that I had too many contentious relationships with people which were unresolved or that I wasn't paying my tithing diligently or . . . .
The list was pretty long but it boiled down to the idea that I was not righteous enough to get a testimony of the truth from god. I wanted it, though, and I struggled ever more and more all the time to get that answer.
Finally, at one point, a book I read cut it loose for me: It was NOT me that was the problem. God was there for the sinner, not the righteous and that if anyone deserved his spiritual testament it was me but not because of anything I was doing or not doing. Simply because I was one of his children. That book made it clear that Jesus was not waiting for me to do anything in particular except for one thing: To have faith.
If I had felt I ever had faith before, I was mistaken. At that moment, belief coupled with faith swelled in my heart and soul to the point that I believed with all my soul that I was going to be given my answers by god and Jesus right then and I immediately hit my knees in prayer, fully expecting to get the answer I had sought throughout my life.
Nothing.
I continued to pray. Still nothing. For an entire day, I was on my knees, praying to know, praying for greater faith and belief. It was not about Mormonism any more, it was about Jesus and about god. Still nothing. At the end of that day, I arose with a belief that there was no god. I hadn't expected god to speak to me with thunder and lightning. Indeed, I had no expectations on how he would answer my prayer. But I believed with all my heart that if god answered me, there would be no doubt remaining in my heart and soul about what god and Jesus were all about and what their intentions are for me.
This next part is the most important part of my story:
I stood up from those prayers with greater doubt than I had ever had before. For a brief moment, I was angry. Angry at my life, my parents, my religion, my religious teachers, the rest of my family; pretty much everyone I had trusted throughout my life.
That anger lasted for the blink of an eye. In the next blink of an eye, I became an atheist and all of my anger dissappeared. Why be angry at a god who isn't there? The feeling of peace that washed over me was the spiritual experience I had been seeking all of my life. The description of it matched what I had always had taught would happen to me by true believers, both within my childhood religion of Mormonism and by those who had taught me from a true Christian faith. (Yes, I do know the difference!
THAT was the spiritual experience I had sought for so very long. All of my anger, my guilt and my fears were gone and ever have been since that time about 8 years ago. The feeling is barely describable and at that time was when I realized that I had been chasing someone else's dream.
I went on a crusade. There was a short time there when I went on the attack and was truly militant toward religions of all types but especially Mormonism and Christianity. I said quite a few hurtful things to people though fortunately, it was possible to work to repair that damage. My tirade lasted for about three months or so.
One day I was reading a book by Carl Sagan and getting heated up about a lot of things he was saying. Two thirds of the way through it, I realized all at once that I was becoming again what I thought I had left behind. I realized I was becoming dogmatic and chauvenistic about my atheism more than I had been about religion!!!
I consider myself very fortunate that I was able to stop and realize that the most important thing in life is our loved ones. Our friends and our families are our highest priority and other people come very close to that priority as well, just because they are all human beings. (No, it doesn't mean we become indisciriminately open to people without thought and with only emotiion but that's a subject for another time.)
In other words, what life is all about is the people around us. How we treat people in this life is the most important aspect of what we will ever do. Indeed, that belief is also taught by many religions.
I also realized at that point that open-mindedness is a critical factor. I resolved to stay open-minded about the things people try to teach me. (Again, that does not mean that we have to indiscriminately take in everything and incorporate it. It could drive a man crazy.) It did mean, however, that any well-conceived teaching was well-worth consideration. Not the ramblings of mindless idiots, don't get me wrong. I don't believe that all Christians are fools at all. I do run into Christian fools from time to time but I run into just as many atheist fools, Buddhist fools, Wiccan fools, etc. etc.
By the same token, there are just as many intelligent people within all of these beliefs to whom it is well worth the time it takes to listen.
I spent about two years taking in various teachings from a lot of different people, many who are preachers and teachers within their religions. They are devoted followers or practitioners and deserving of the respect of any of us. They have yet to be convincing to me, however. As we talk, they have yet to move me.
Still, I keep my eyes open. I no longer spend time looking under the rocks and in the holes. I no longer go out into the field seeking answers. But I watch. I listen and I carefully consider the possibility that there COULD be a god and there COULD be a sacrifice that was made for me by Jesus.
There have been many comments made here on this board and elsewhere which serve to keep my mind open on the subject of the existence of god. I still read to see where they go and how they approach. To see if there is the possibility that I'm wrong and they are right. Thus far, as I said, I'm still unconvinced but rest assured, I'm not switched off to the possibilities! There is still a chance, at least in my mind, that perhaps some day someone will say something that changes my mind.
Until that day comes, however, I remain an atheist. However, I am still devoted to the idea that people are the most important aspect of our lives and that all peope deserve a fair shot. Of course, I go off from time to time but not as much as I used to and I surely work to keep that from happening as much as I possibly can.
Beyond this point, my story will become a ramble so I sign off from writing this now. There is more, of course, and there are always more questions from religious adherents and I'm always open to answering those beliefs in the full expectation that open-mindedness is something that is needful for all of us.
My best,
--Wag--
Merry Christmas Rev.
Thanks Lou for sharing. in my mind I want to say that was an awesome story!! lol..
Not awesome as far as what has transpired in your life, but awesome in the way that you shared it with us.
I can see why you would be where you are at in your life.
You and Nan have a Merry Christmas!!!
btw, you two have snow there?
Not awesome as far as what has transpired in your life, but awesome in the way that you shared it with us.
I can see why you would be where you are at in your life.
You and Nan have a Merry Christmas!!!
btw, you two have snow there?
I've told that story before but I don't think it was here. Also, the last few times I've told it, it was more focused on the Mormonism aspect of it because of my audience but the element of Christianity was definitely a part of it.
I'm an open book and I wear my heart on my sleeve. But that's how I usually am among friends and you are definitely a friend as are most people on this board!
Snowed here last week. We got about 8 or 9 inches but some in the surrounding area got about a foot, some less than a couple inches.
I think our drought is over!
Tell the wiff and kids we said hello! We miss you guys.
--Wag--
I'm an open book and I wear my heart on my sleeve. But that's how I usually am among friends and you are definitely a friend as are most people on this board!
Snowed here last week. We got about 8 or 9 inches but some in the surrounding area got about a foot, some less than a couple inches.
I think our drought is over!
Tell the wiff and kids we said hello! We miss you guys.
--Wag--
Rev - Let me start out by saying that I was just goofing with you -- I didn't mean it as a serious analysis of your post.
That having been said... Originally posted by Revlis Umm....NO, it's NOT stereotyping it's a statement of belief based on experience. I specified "vast majority" not all Bro.[/Quote]
Actually, a sweeping generalization doesn't need to imply 'all' - just enough to be considered a categorization of a group. For instance, the statement "Busa owners disregard speed limits" is a sweeping generalization whether or not it includes 'all' Busa owners.
Originally posted by Revlis Um No, This doesn't apply either. While indeed I am just pulling my argument outta my A$$, I am in no way trying to say that everyone believes it so it must be true... NO, I am saying almost the exact opposite. I am stating a belief that the Vast majority ALREADY believe something False.[/Quote]
But you're conclusion is resting on the validity of your assertion that "a VAST majority of Christians do NOT realize that the 25th is NOT Christs Birthday". Not a classic Appeal to Numbers, granted, but your argument does rely on your assertion the vast majority of Christians believe 25 December is Christ's Birthday.
Originally posted by Revlis Fair enough, I do get carried away with Idols and Symbols speak. However I am not sure what it is that I am assuming is false, other than the general intellect of the Christian community as whole.[/Quote]
Simply that since "a VAST majority of Christians do NOT realize that the 25th is NOT Christs Birthday" it must mean that "I'm pretty sure for the most part there is a group denial in action", that "A cult like group think that has washed over it's followers", that "the Church has [a grip] on the minds of the followers" and that "the symbols and idols in their lives, and indeed the dates and Holiday itself, is nothing more than pagan tradition with window dressing and Fairy tale".
Essentially that Christianity is a farce.
Originally posted by Revlis Given that my premise and what you call my conclusion are seemingly unrelated I fail to see any connection. Doesn't mean it's wrong though...
The same response to Argumentum ad Logicam applies to this as well.
In a nutshell, the assertion is that the vast majority of Christians don't realize 25 December isn't Christ's Birthday so the conclusion is that Christianity must be a farce.
Originally posted by Revlis Um, pretty much said "Belief" from the beginning.[/Quote]
And, like I said, I realize you're just doing this in fun.
Merry Christmas! It is Christ's Birthday, doncha know...
Merry Christmas everyone. I've always heard around 4 B.C. I've always celebrated His birth on December 25th.
Merry Christmas everyone
Merry Christmas everyone
RedBull
Registered
I often wonder if someone
a thousand years from now
will be laughing at our tax laws .
#BabyItsColdOutside ~ #ChristmasForChrist ~~ #DeathAndTax ~ #THEoRg *
Baby it's cold outside * | Videos
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