Where is the Giant Leap in Technology?

[OB_BRM]

Let me explain. In '83 I bought a GS1100 Suzuki, the "superbike" of its day. It had a top speed of about 140 although I never got it over 115-120 because it wobbled so badly. It turned the quarter in about 11.20 @ 119 mph as tested by the mags. Its handling and brakes were atrocious by todays standards with that little skinny frame, skinny, wheels and tires, and the small brake discs. The controls, including the shifter, were stiff, not at all smooth.

Eight years later, I got a '91 ZX11. What a huge difference. Top speed about 36mph faster and quarter mile a full second faster as tested by the mags. It had a huge aluminum perimeter frame, big wheels and tires, and much better brakes. It was rock steady, at least for me, to 170 indicated. With all of this, it weighed about the same as the GS1100. The controls, including the shifter, were buttery smooth. I know Kawasaki has a bad reputation for fit and finish, but that '91 was damn good.

Nine years later I got a 2000 Busa. No doubt there are advances over the ZX11, but they are not as pronounced. Top speed about 15mph more, quarter mile, according to the mags, a couple or three tenths at best. Everything else, frame, wheels, etc. about the same but slightly improved. Fit and finish is definitely better but not by a lot. The controls are exactly the same, including the shifter. I see no improvement at all here. And actually the engine in my Busa is a little buzzier than my ZX11 was. Due to its stiffer suspension the Busa's ride is not as plush but the trade off is better handling.
And, even with everthing bigger it weigh about 25lbs. less.

My point is there were huge improvements in the 80's but now they seem to be in small increments. Go from the GS1100 to the ZX11 and you think you moved ahead 30 years. From the ZX11 to the Busa the difference is much more subtle.

There are lots of examples of this. For instance, an '831100F Honda vs. a '93 RR900 vs. a 2000 929RR.

Has the saturation point in technology for bikes at a reasonable price been reached, or is some big leap just down the road.

 

[Johnnycheese]

first of all your busa handles at least twice as good as your 11 did I know that for a fact (got rid of 90 zx11).Now we are in a time of small gains due to $$$ and lawyers.
If you think back Motocross bikes blew your minds away in the early 80's till about mid 90 now it is small changes everything reaches a limit and right now you cannot even ride your busa to 75% of what it is able to do, make it more whatever would be a waste at this point.

 

[OB_VegasDude]

Where have you been 15 mph and .3 is huge...............................!!!and its more like 20 mph......my 1998 zx11 would only do a true 170 and that was it..........................

 

[OB_zx9rmal]

25 pounds less? you are a bit "under the influence". The last Motorcyclist test I saw had the ZX11 weighing 601 pounds, wet, or about 51 pounds heavier.

Mal

 

[OB_BRM]

Mal: That 601 lbs was for a D Model. Mine was a C, @ about 575 wet, 25 lbs less than a D., 25lbs more than a Busa.

Vegas Dude: I won't split hairs over performance, but look at it this way. If you took someone who knew nothing about bikes, and let him look at, say, a new model of even a '69 750 Honda, a new '83 GS1100, a new '90ZX11, and a new Busa. Lets assume, then he could ride them. Even though they're 14 years apart, I bet he couldn't identify the '69 Honda and '83 GS1100 as being that much different. Likewise, in looks and ride I'm sure he would think the '90 ZX11 and 2000 Busa were a lot alike. And, I'm also sure he would think the '69 Honda and '83 GS1100 were light years older than the the ZX11 and Busa. I,m just saying there was a big leap in technology from the early 80's to the early 90's but the change since then has been a lot more subtle.

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

I bought a new GS1100E in 1983 (an 82 model), and still have it. It has always handled and stopped quite well, the only qualification being that I have never had it on a track to really push it to its limits. But for someone who knows how to throw it around, it handles okay. It's definitely a different era from the Busa, but it's hard to tap a lot of the Busa's potential on the road, too.

I have gotten all of the GS1100 on top end, and mine was always rock-stable...still is, although with 80,000+ hard miles on the motor, with nothing done to it, it has definitely lost a step or two. But back in the day it topped out about 200 rpm short of redline in 5th, or right around 140, and was stable. Yours may have had something wrong with it.

Comparing the Busa to the ZX-11, however, I got to run my copper one against a 99 ZX-11 at Carlsbad Raceway a few weeks ago. I was amazed how totally my Busa dominated. The other rider outweighed me by about 20 lbs., but I'm a novice at the drag strip, and I was running 10.4's and he was running 10.8's. I had about 10 mph on him on top, and it amazed me how big a gap that was. I totally blew a couple of starts, and by the end of second gear I had caught him and smoked past him. It really wasn't competitive.

[This message has been edited by Mr Bear (edited 08 May 2000).]

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

Also, my GS1100 when it was fresh topped out right about at 140, 200 rpm or so below redline in 5th, straight stock. The bike ran in the 11.2 to 11.3 range in most of the magazine tests, whereas the early Honda CB750's ran low 13's, with handling and braking considerably more primitive than the GS1100.

Progress has gradually levelled off, but it is still substandial. The difference in quarter mile times between the early CB750 and the GS1100E was about 2 seconds. The difference between the GS1100E and the ZX-11 was around 0.7 or 0.8 seconds (magazines usually got around 10.5 for the ZX-11). The difference between reasonable magazine ET's of the ZX-11 and the Busa is around 0.6 to 0.7 seconds, calling the ZX-11 10.5 and the Busa between 9.8 and 9.9.

Since I am a 180 lb. novice, my Busa is totally stock, original, and I got a 10.4 on it my first time at the strip with it, under somewhat slow air conditions (high humidity), on only my third pass, I think 9.8 to 9.9 is reasonable for the Busa, for a professional magazine tester.

I have also made a pass on a ZX-12 now. The one thing I have not ever done is to ride a early ZX-11. But based on these latest two offerings, the ZX-12 and Busa, I would say there is still some good new stuff going on in the industry.


[This message has been edited by Mr Bear (edited 11 May 2000).]

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

The unfairness of the above comparison, of course, is that it compares a 738cc 750 to a 1074cc 1100; then the 1,074cc 1100 to a 1052cc 1100; then compares a 1052cc 1100 to a 1298cc 1300. So it is not really fair to the early-90's bike, or in particular to the ZX-11 of that era. We should probably compare a 750 from 1970, to a 750 from the early 80's, to a 750 from the early 90's, to a current 750, to really get a fair picture of the progress.

But the biggest bikes are a measure of progress for the eras, since there were no 1,000cc or larger sportbikes available in the early 70's, and no 1300cc sportbikes available until the Busa came along.

Displacement is good!

 

[OB_BRM]

Mr Bear: I still have my '83 GS1100 also. (A red one]. It still looks brand new. I tried every thing to get that wobble out, actually more of a weave. Different tire combinations, tightening the steering bearings, lining up the wheels with a straight edge. Nothing worked. It started around 115. The dealer said to ride thru it and it would stop around 125. No thanks to that. I read several articles back in the 80's saying a lot of GS's were plagued with that poblem.It really pulled hard though. One tooth lower on the front, Vance and Hines exhaust and clutch, cams degreed, rejetted. It would easily wheely on the throttle in first. I haven't rode it much in the last few years. Its setting in my family room.

But anyway, I'm sure you can see,performance aside, technology wise, its closer to a '69 Honda than an early 90's sportbike.

 

[OB_JohnC]

In addition to the performance, there has also been a significant reduction in emissions. Compare the 80's brakes to 90's brakes. And, I think handling has improved very significantly. Comparing my 93' CBR1000f to my Busa.(similar purpose machines).

You’re right, the changes are more subtle these days, but what are you expecting. Today’s street bikes perform like GP bikes, 10-15 years ago. If you want to feel good about motorcycle advances, just compare them to the auto industry.

 

[OB_Hyper]

Technology will only go so far, otherwise our streetbikes should run into the hight 8's twenty years from now, which they might!

In late 1979 you could obtain a 80 model GS1100 and drop one tooth on the front, add a yosh pipe, and open the main jets up, and you now had a bike capable of high 10's in the quarter mile. My 81 model beat so many bikes so easily. I have a 83 model that I am rebuilding to a 1166 with head work by Nigel Patrick and cams, etc. Should turn out to be a real street sleeper and a fun vintage racebike.

The Hayabusa is not leaps and bounds better than a ZX11, but is certainly a new benchmark for other manufacturers to set their sights on. I bought my busa on the premise that it could possibly be a 10 year keeper, who knows I may have to add a turbo by then. The next level of performance will be achieved in the weight department, the hayabusa could lose some weight.

Bottom line is we are living in a great time of bike performance, go ride and enjoy.

 

[Guest]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the difficulty in going faster/quicker once higher speeds are reached. In other words - it takes a lot more hp to reduce times from 10.0 to 9.5 and 180 to 190 than it does at lower speeds like 11.0 to 10.5 and 140 to 150. It's not linear and becomes much more difficult as faster speeds are reached. Take an older 80's 1100 and add enough mods to equal a Busa in all areas and you will most likely spend much more than you could buy a new Busa for.

 

[DaveO]

I agree with Todd. Like most areas of performance, the early gains are easy, the last couple of % are the hardest. As he states, it becomes nonlinear, almost expontential.

For example, the GS11's could gain tremendously from pipe, carbs, ignition mods. Back in the early 80's most bikes could gain at least 10hp by pipe and individual filters. Early 1100 "R"'s were 95hp out of the box. Add pipe, stage 3 jet kit, degree cams and get 125+ hp. An increase of OVER 25% for those simple mods. Just imagine if the Busa was like that. A pipe, remap, airbox mod, degreed cams would give you about 200hp if the gains were the same. That would be sweet!!

The performance records are no different. If it takes 100hp (hypothetically speaking) to go 150 mph. Then would a 150hp bike go 50% faster..i.e. 225mph? Of course NOT. Every additional MPH above 180mph requires either a good amount more HP, or less aero drag. Same for 1/4 mile ET's. Once you get below the 10's, it gets harder to shave those tenths. A 60 shot of juice might drop you from 11.5 to 10.5, but it isn't going to drop you from 9.5 to 8.5 seconds.

The GS1100 high speed wobble, we used to drill a hole in the frame and inject Marine Tech, a fiberglass resin type compound into the tubes to increase rigidity. This fixed the "wobble".

Dave

 

[OB_ECS33]

Well surely I can tell a difference in ten years.My first bike was a suzuki 90cc at 13 years of age.My last bike was a 91 gsxr 750, had to sell her when i got married.Still miss her.Ex left so I bought the BUSA.Forgot the fun that I was missing...

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

I totally agree with Todd.

BRM, you are right about the advances also, unless you look at it a different way. Counting up the technology advances between the CB750 and the GS1100, there was air cooling for both engines, steel tube frames, no bodywork, and twin-shock rear suspensions, for both bikes.

The CB750 had an 8-valve, single-cam motor, single front disk/drum rear brake, and steel swingarm; where the GS was a 16-valve twin-cam mill, triple disks, and aluminum box-section swingarm.

Those advances are pretty modest, technically, compared to the full bodywork, liquid-cooling, alloy perimeter frame, and single-shock rear suspension featured on the ZX-11 (it doesn't have an inverted fork, does it?).

BUT, the Honda CB750 was the biggest, most sophistocated Japanese road bike available when it came out. The increases in displacement of the Japanese four-strokes, through the 70's, were huge advances all by themselves. Those companies had never built bikes with the power of the Z-1 (903cc), KZ1000 (1015cc), XS-Eleven (?cc), Honda CBX, or KZ1300 before, along with the added power and weight of those bikes. So they were in uncharted territory with each step up in size.

Because they were really just figuring out what they were doing in the 60's and 70's, technically, it seems like they were able to get big gains in performance while sticking with pretty basic technologies. In the 80's they got their gains by going to much more sophistocated technology.

But they might be running out of places to look for big advances now. As JohnC said, look at the auto industry. It is pretty stagnant. Sport bikes are probably headed that way. It's unfortunate, but it is a natural progression.

[This message has been edited by Mr Bear (edited 10 May 2000).]

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

BRM, one thing that did make my GS1100 wobble at high speed was the Shoei bar-mount sport fairing I have had on it for years (it's off at the moment). It is nice to have on the freeway at 75 mph, but at 110 or 115 mph it introduces that slow oscillation....tank-slappers.

Another thing that can cause the slow wobble is anything that changes the steering geometry....non-stock size tires or worn tires, fork tubes mis-located in the triple-clamps (the rubber boots should stick up, so that you can get a wrench on the caps; the top of the downtubes should be flush with the top of the upper triple clamp). Since you looked pretty hard to try to fix it, you probably got those things right. But mine is a rock. I go 130 straight on it, and take turns at 115, it's stable.

 

[OB_Mr Bear]

Hyper, I want to do the same thing with my GS1100 that you are talking about. It's pretty tired right now. If I can find a big-bore kit to get it to about 1150cc, cams and carbs so that I can still ride it on the street, I want to do it. I want it to run mid-tens, and handle well enough that I can do track days on it at Willow Springs without endangering my life (more than usual) or getting laughed at.

I'll have to do my track days on the Busa for the time being, though. It's fresh and ready to go, which is more than I can say for my wallet at the moment.

 

[OB_BRM]

Mr Bear: My GS1100, when it was new with the mods I mentioned {but with a wheelie bar} and someone else riding it, turned a 10.67 at the local drag strip. I've never had any type fairing on it, it just begins to wobble everytime between 115 and 120. I never rode it much over the years because I just didn't like its handling and I always had another bike to ride. I love that motor though.

As far as technology is concerned I guess the ideal bike for me would be probably a V-twin, with about 100 ft.lbs. of torque, 130 h.p., ultra smooth and reliable, all wraped up in a sportbike package that is comfortable and weighs about 350-375 lbs wet and cost $12000 tops. I have a Buell but it's way short of that. The Busa is close to ideal for me except for the weight.

 

[OB_BRM]

Mr Bear: I'm not much of a gearhead, but the mechanic who did the mods to this bike 17 years ago, said one of the most important things to do to a GS1100 engine is to degree the cams correctly. He said they are really sensitive to this.

BTW, you may already know this, but there is a web site for these bikes, www.gsresources.com

 

[OB_Hyper]

Mr. Bear,
Wiseco has the 1166 kit, which allows use of stock cams, cases, carbs, etc. If more money is thrown at it the 1166 is a good foundation for larger cams, carbs, etc.