Why do you guys use street tires on the track ?

[Tufbusa]

We have to make sure we are both on the same page Cap. I never suggest anyone ride as hard as they can "100%" on the streets. You won't keep that up long before you end up in intensive care. The track is the only place to safely explore your abilities.

I agree with you 100% that most crashes occur when the rider is or has reached his limits. No matter who you are, when you've reached your individual limit little mistakes all of a sudden become serious.

Each rider has his own limits and on any given track day there is a WIDE range of limits among riders. You can follow a guy and know when he has reached his limits by his body language. I have done this so much that I can acutally pick out the guys that are most likely to crash before days end.

What I encourage riders to do if they want to improve is to push their limits a little by taking baby steps until they feel uncomfortable. Pick one thing at a time to work on. Don't just twist the throttle and wait for the crash but pick one thing such as braking (Something very few street riders are good at). Try going ten feet deeper into the corner every session until they begin to feel discomfort. If they do this on a regular basis, pretty soon they have increased their confidence as well as their ability to properly manage the brakes for best results. It's best to do this around mid-day after they have warmed up and before they become tired in the afternoon.

By never reaching that discomfort zone one really does become stuck at a certain level and that's where they remain for long periods of time. Macon is a prime example. He went from not dragging his knee to blazing fast in a very short time. He crashed a few times but he pushed his limits constantly. The desire to do his very best out weighed his fear. Macon is the exception and I don't incourage anyone to follow his foot steps. What Macon is now learning is the faster he becomes the harder it is to become faster. However, using macon as an example on how to flatten the learning curve makes one realize how steep and long that learning curve becomes if one never exceeds their comfort zone.

I always ask a rider what they expect to get from their track experience. I take a different approach depending on their answer. If they just want to enjoy the ride and have fun I will not suggest they push any limits, that's left for the ones who want to improve and learn to get around the track quicker. When you find a rider who really has interest in learning, the more he learns the more he wants to learn. It actually comes down to customer satisfaction. If they leave happy they tend to be a repeat customer!

[raydog]

This 100% thing is really worth talking about. For me, it used to be that I'd actually get a little upset when someone passed me on the track, like "he's going too fast" or "what the heck is the matter with me?" When I was able to shed that childish attitude and focus on myself, my equipment and the track.....my world changed. Not only did I become safer, I became faster AND had SO MUCH more fun being a "bird in flight" instead of "automatic weapons fire". 100% ?? In terms of deep focus and self analyzation, 100% all the time! (yes, the function of our mind drops to 90% and lower but ongoing refocus during the ride should lasso you back to max focus ALL THE TIME, especially on the track). Doyle

[afterhours]

I understnd and agree with what both of you are saying, I just do not believe that the "dis-comfort zone" starts at 100%. I think that at about 90% you start to get uncomfortable, and pushing past that is important.

However I think that most people crash because they decide to push it, then due to simple error, or maybe even fatigue and blow right past it to 105% and end up on thier head.

If you look at a race weekend, you will see guys running hard and pushing it on Sat. practice.....but the difference between Sat. practice and a Sunday race is noticable.

I think we are all talking about the same thing.....maybe I was not clear in what i meant, so I will try again.

In my opinion a trackday is for fun. Push your bike and yourself, expand your limits. However it is not racing. I have no problm with some spirited riding, but I do not want to be banging bars and fighting over position with every street legend that wants to be the next Rossi. If you want to race, go race....you have all the gear already.

like I said, just an opinion. I am not trying to start a war with this stuff.

[Tufbusa]

I understnd and agree with what both of you are saying, I just do not believe that the "dis-comfort zone" starts at 100%. I think that at about 90% you start to get uncomfortable, and pushing past that is important.

However I think that most people crash because they decide to push it, then due to simple error, or maybe even fatigue and blow right past it to 105% and end up on thier head.

If you look at a race weekend, you will see guys running hard and pushing it on Sat. practice.....but the difference between Sat. practice and a Sunday race is noticable.

I think we are all talking about the same thing.....maybe I was not clear in what i meant, so I will try again.

In my opinion a trackday is for fun. Push your bike and yourself, expand your limits. However it is not racing. I have no problm with some spirited riding, but I do not want to be banging bars and fighting over position with every street legend that wants to be the next Rossi. If you want to race, go race....you have all the gear already.

like I said, just an opinion. I am not trying to start a war with this stuff.

That's exactly why I mentioned "Pick and choose where and when to test your limits". In a crowd is a time to be cautious. If you have track time under your belt you will know there is little if ever any of this banging bars business in the novis and intermediate groups and very rarely in the advanced group. The track marshalls in the brightly colored vest will quickly subdue any Rossi wantabe's. It's their job to maintain civility and safety. In the advanced group the riders themselves will have a chat with any out of control riders.

God gave you good judgment and common sense for a reason. Use it!

[afterhours]

That's exactly why I mentioned "Pick and choose where and when to test your limits". In a crowd is a time to be cautious. If you have track time under your belt you will know there is little if ever any of this banging bars business in the novis and intermediate groups and very rarely in the advanced group. The track marshalls in the brightly colored vest will quickly subdue any Rossi wantabe's. It's their job to maintain civility and safety. In the advanced group the riders themselves will have a chat with any out of control riders.

God gave you good judgment and common sense for a reason. Use it!

I actually stopped doing "track days" because the organizations around here did a poor job of policing. I instead just renewed my race license and would run a Sat. practice with the racers.

[macon454]

We have to make sure we are both on the same page Cap. I never suggest anyone ride as hard as they can "100%" on the streets. You won't keep that up long before you end up in intensive care. The track is the only place to safely explore your abilities.

I agree with you 100% that most crashes occur when the rider is or has reached his limits. No matter who you are, when you've reached your individual limit little mistakes all of a sudden become serious.

Each rider has his own limits and on any given track day there is a WIDE range of limits among riders. You can follow a guy and know when he has reached his limits by his body language. I have done this so much that I can acutally pick out the guys that are most likely to crash before days end.

What I encourage riders to do if they want to improve is to push their limits a little by taking baby steps until they feel uncomfortable. Pick one thing at a time to work on. Don't just twist the throttle and wait for the crash but pick one thing such as braking (Something very few street riders are good at). Try going ten feet deeper into the corner every session until they begin to feel discomfort. If they do this on a regular basis, pretty soon they have increased their confidence as well as their ability to properly manage the brakes for best results. It's best to do this around mid-day after they have warmed up and before they become tired in the afternoon.

By never reaching that discomfort zone one really does become stuck at a certain level and that's where they remain for long periods of time. Macon is a prime example. He went from not dragging his knee to blazing fast in a very short time. He crashed a few times but he pushed his limits constantly. The desire to do his very best out weighed his fear. Macon is the exception and I don't incourage anyone to follow his foot steps. What Macon is now learning is the faster he becomes the harder it is to become faster. However, using macon as an example on how to flatten the learning curve makes one realize how steep and long that learning curve becomes if one never exceeds their comfort zone.

I always ask a rider what they expect to get from their track experience. I take a different approach depending on their answer. If they just want to enjoy the ride and have fun I will not suggest they push any limits, that's left for the ones who want to improve and learn to get around the track quicker. When you find a rider who really has interest in learning, the more he learns the more he wants to learn. It actually comes down to customer satisfaction. If they leave happy they tend to be a repeat customer!

, Yes I did learn alot from going down a couple of times I for sure learned how to slow down a little and smooth out and go faster, But I will still push my limits because I now know where they are if that makes any since. I want to learn how to go faster and faster and be smooth doing it, I will never stop learning, I love it. And I will never stop trying to go just a little faster (in safe conditions without any other riders around) Because for me the faster I can go the more fun I am having, I am not sure I can have that much fun without pushing it just a little. All my life I have raced something started out with BMX for about 6 years and then Motorcross for 8 years and then drag racing and street racing for a couple of years and now on to street bikes and I have always had to practice the way I raced which is usually ALL OUT, I just like to ride hard when on any kind of track because that is the way my dad pushed me to be. Just my 2 cents which isnt worth much

[skydivr]

Saiid, to answer your question (and, btw, I am NOT THE resident track junkie, just one of the newbies):

1. Q2's can be bought just about anywhere at between 200 and 220 a set; Race tires are tightly controlled and at least double the price.

2. MUST have warmers for Slicks; optional for street tires as long as you are careful the first few laps.

3. I ride both street and track. I want comparable traction so I know the limits. You do NOT ride slicks on the street.

4. MOST IMPORTANT: I am NOT GOOD ENOUGH to waste $$ on slicks. Until you hit the A group, a really good street tire will do you just fine. I know a few people who ARE good enough and make the most out of a slick, but I am not even close to one of them. OR, you are so good (Tufbusa) that you don't need slicks and can still hold your own in Advanced

[Tufbusa]

I actually stopped doing "track days" because the organizations around here did a poor job of policing. I instead just renewed my race license and would run a Sat. practice with the racers.

Well dang, if you can run race pace you should have no concerns about anyone riding over their head and slapping bars with you cause no one in the street groups can catch you!

And, if you have a race license you are use to playing bumper cars anyway! Contrats, I had no idea you were a race quality rider! Damn, those Shinko touring tires work a lot better than I gave them credit for!

[fastblackblur]

Well dang, if you can run race pace you should have no concerns about anyone riding over their head and slapping bars with you cause no one in the street groups can catch you!

And, if you have a race license you are use to playing bumper cars anyway! Contrats, I had no idea you were a race quality rider! Damn, those Shinko touring tires work a lot better than I gave them credit for!

oh Steven....


Lots of good points today.

Don't try to be Rossi your first day on the track.
Explore your limits at your own pace.

Macon I think we have some similar viewpoints on track riding. When I go to the track I keep pushing and pushing till something happens. Either I go faster or something silly happens. Luckily for me all that has incurred is a couple of lowsides and some sweet(minor) sportbike offroading advetures. I wouldn't catagorize myself as wreckless but I'm definetly out there to see what I can learn. I do try my best to respect the other riders and their equipment. I would hate to be that guy that ruins someone elses track day or worse...

[afterhours]

Well dang, if you can run race pace you should have no concerns about anyone riding over their head and slapping bars with you cause no one in the street groups can catch you!

And, if you have a race license you are use to playing bumper cars anyway! Contrats, I had no idea you were a race quality rider! Damn, those Shinko touring tires work a lot better than I gave them credit for!

you know...I have been trying to give you some space, but you just want to be a jerk. Its not my fault you were shown to be a hypocrit.

perhaps you need to step off your "high horse" about the Shinko's, I understand that too some you may be the "all knowing track guru". But all I see is a dude running his mouth about some tires(Shinko's) he has never used, and insulting people that choose to use them as being too stupid or too cheap.

while doing the same thing.....and them posting about it.

[Tufbusa]

you know...I have been trying to give you some space, but you just want to be a jerk. Its not my fault you were shown to be a hypocrit.

perhaps you need to step off your "high horse" about the Shinko's, I understand that too some you may be the "all knowing track guru". But all I see is a dude running his mouth about some tires(Shinko's) he has never used, and insulting people that choose to use them as being too stupid or too cheap.

while doing the same thing.....and them posting about it.

Dang dude, I disagree with you on your praise of the cheapest tire on planet earth and you whimper, "I'm insulted".

Then I compliment you on your racing credentials and your ability to spank the a$$ off these tires and you are still insulted. :wtf:

As far as I know you've never mentioned having a background in road racing. If you'd post up a copy of your Race License I would humbly apologize for ever doubting your credibility and never say another derogatory word about your Shinkos.

[Acehole]

Enough with the pissing contest boyz. Next one to post up crap about another rider gets a time out ban. Stay on topic or another good thread is going to be closed.

[Tufbusa]

Enough with the pissing contest boyz. Next one to post up crap about another rider gets a time out ban. Stay on topic or another good thread is going to be closed.

No worries, I'll take a time out on my own!

[Gpmo]

So say you take your bike to the track and want to run it like you would on the street. If you wreck would standard insurance cover it or do you need different insurance?

Thanks for all the great posts about this btw. I am still on the fence but knowing about all these details helps track virgins make decisions.

[sixpack577]

No worries, I'll take a time out on my own!

Beat it old man, you don't know what you're talkin bout anyway!

[skydivr]

So say you take your bike to the track and want to run it like you would on the street. If you wreck would standard insurance cover it or do you need different insurance?

Thanks for all the great posts about this btw. I am still on the fence but knowing about all these details helps track virgins make decisions.

As long as you are doing a trackday, that counts as "school/instruction" (just like the MSF) and most insurance covers you. Contact your own insurance company to check. As long as you are not racing (and a trackday is instruction not racing) then you should be good.

If you are going to a good provider, a trackday comes higly recommended. You will learn more about your bike in one day on a track than you should in a year on the street - which helps you prepare for, and learn how to get out of, those 'oh crap' moments on the street that we have all experienced at one time or another. btw, it's highly addictive

[Blanca BusaLess]

Skydivr since you are on a 'racetrack' wouldnt your ins consider it to be racing no matter the circumstance ?
I'd be scared to call and ask because they may make notes
I crash at a track day the damage will most assuredly have come from the ride home on public streets

As long as you are doing a trackday, that counts as "school/instruction" (just like the MSF) and most insurance covers you. Contact your own insurance company to check. As long as you are not racing (and a trackday is instruction not racing) then you should be good.

If you are going to a good provider, a trackday comes higly recommended. You will learn more about your bike in one day on a track than you should in a year on the street - which helps you prepare for, and learn how to get out of, those 'oh crap' moments on the street that we have all experienced at one time or another. btw, it's highly addictive

[skydivr]

Skydivr since you are on a 'racetrack' wouldnt your ins consider it to be racing no matter the circumstance ?
I'd be scared to call and ask because they may make notes
I crash at a track day the damage will most assuredly have come from the ride home on public streets

No. Trackday's are considered "INSTRUCTION", just like the MSF. All you can do it call them and ask (or read the fine print in your policy to see if it strickly forbids it). While I have yet to hear about anyone's insurance denying payment because it happened at a trackday, I have heard plenty of people who crashed tell me they DID get paid.

[Blanca BusaLess]

Ok good to know.
I don't think I can afford a permission slip from the Cuban Dragon anyway.

[afterhours]

I owned a shop several years ago, and we repiared 3 bikes that were crashed at a trackday. All 3 were covered by insurance, and considered a safety/instructional class. This was a while back and you should check for yourself on your specific policy.