Shinko Tires

[S4L]

Tufbusa:

Note taken and good advice! Like I said before, I'm getting out of pushing my bike to the limits because what I have come to realize is you can have race slicks heated up to optimal traction temperature, and they might have all the grip in the world. But on the street, a patch of sand will be the end all be all conclusion that the street is not the place to push it. I've had close calls and been really lucky so far with my riding style. I personally love my paint just the way it is, and really love my skin the way it is. I'm really hoping with a new set of sport touring tires, I won't be as tempted to do some of the stupid things I was doing before ie: dragging knee, shoes, and pegs. Last summer we had 5 guys go down (all on seperate occasions) while riding twisties. All of which were behind me. I've had a sneaky suspicion for awhile now that it could be me next. I guess you might say "another year older, another year wiser". Don't get me wrong, I'll still flog her to death in a straight line, but I'll leave the knee dragging to the 21 year olds, while they are still invincible.

I'm with Tuf here, you never know, especially on the street, when you are going to need all of your traction. Whether it is a car coming into your lane on a bend, or a car pulling out in front of you, I want to feel confident that my tire will do more hugging then sliding. Obviously, like you stated, with certain road conditions, it won't matter how sticky your tire is - it won't bite on sand or gravel.

 

[Tufbusa]

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Here is a perfect example that supports the theory "It's better to have grip and not need it than to need grip and not have it".

This guy is on Pirelli Angels (Touring tires). The rider applied the brakes and instantly lost traction resulting in a nasty knee injury. The more grip your tire has the bigger mistakes you can get away with.

When making decisions on tires you must first convince yourself that you will never find yourself in a similar situation!

This is exactly why I never run a touring tire on the front. The lions share of bike crashes are due to loss of traction on the front. I'm very happy to spend a few more bucks for increased front end traction.

 

[soundman]

I'm with Tuf here, you never know, especially on the street, when you are going to need all of your traction. Whether it is a car coming into your lane on a bend, or a car pulling out in front of you, I want to feel confident that my tire will do more hugging then sliding. Obviously, like you stated, with certain road conditions, it won't matter how sticky your tire is - it won't bite on sand or gravel.

I agree with Tuf on some points but here is where I disagree with him.

A) At street speeds most sport tires are never up to optimal operating temp for grip so unless you've been riding hard when that car pulls out in front of you, you're not going to have as much grip as you would with a sport touring tire. On the Bridgestone website they list the 016 as a SPORT/touring tire. I agree. Once warmed up they are very nimble, feel very light, and have great feedback and tons of grip. note I said "once warmed up". They also only lasted about 1800 miles before they needed replacing. The rear was gone and the front was worn to the point that I didn't feel like it would be worth only replacing the rear. I had a friend do MASSIVE damage to his SV-650 two weeks ago on Dunlop Q2's when he pulled out of his driveway, gave it too much throttle, ,and highsided at about 10 mph. IMHO this would not have been an issue with a good sport touring tire. I have had similar experiences riding on the street with sport tires. I'm not saying that these are not good tires but if you think you're going to pull out of your driveway on an average morning and immediately be able to get your knee down or stop when that school bus pull out in front of you, then you are gravely mistaken.

B) He knows not what he says because he knows not what he is talking about. I'm not saying that he doesn't know about tires. I'm saying he doesn't know about SHINKO tires because, by his own admission, he has never ridden on them. He is going on what he thinks and what he has read and ignoring and discounting the opinions of those who have actually had experience with the product. He sites the test that talked about the Shinko rears "spinning up easily" but doesn't include the part where they say that "We were however very impressed by how much feel the rear tire offered. This made it easy to control the backend of the motorcycle under power sliding off a corner." He also mentions how the Stealth is over 7 seconds off the pace of the top placing tire but fails to mention that it was only .18 seconds off of the pace of the Pilot Power 2ct in the big track test and only .33 seconds off the Pirelli Diablo Rosso in the small track test, both very respectable tires. I actually have a bit of an issue with the test because although it was called a track/street test, the street portion was conducted at the Streets of Willow, which is very much a racetrack.

Here is a picture of my used tire stack. This is actually about half of the tires I've gone through in the past 4 years since I started changing my own tires.

It includes tires from every manufacturer from Avon to Tomahawk. Ask me about a tire I've ridden on and I'll tell you about it. Ask me about something I haven't ridden on and I'll tell you to google it because I have no experience with it.

Tuf is probably a much better rider than I am seeing as how he is a track coach and all and I would be very inclined to listen to him if he were saying "I've ridden on the Shinko product on the street and feel that it is not only inferior but unsafe." The problem is he is saying these things having never tried the product.

I will say that I don't really consider the Shinko's to be track tires. In my opinion the 005's are a touring tire and the 003's are a good street/sport tire. The New Verge 011's are IMHO, a little above the 003's as far as feel and grip. I have yet to try the 010's but you can be confident that I will once it's time for new tires on my 919.

Tuf seems like a really good guy who wants the best for his fellow riders. I'm just saying that before he low rates the shinko tires further he should get a set of the 010's and give them a good objective try on the street, the environment that they are intended for. Either that or politely pass on commenting.

 

[soundman]

Examining the video I find a perfect example of panic braking. There is no way to be sure that a pure sport tire would have behaved any diffently in this situation. The massive, extremely fast dive of the front end shows that dude just plain old fashioned panicked. This scenario is exactly why EVERY time I go for a ride I practice a few panic stops, just to calibrate my brain in case the real thing happens. IMHO braking practice would have done this guy much more justice than a more expensive set of tires.

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Here is a perfect example that supports the theory "It's better to have grip and not need it than to need grip and not have it".

This guy is on Pirelli Angels (Touring tires). The rider applied the brakes and instantly lost traction resulting in a nasty knee injury. The more grip your tire has the bigger mistakes you can get away with.

When making decisions on tires you must first convince yourself that you will never find yourself in a similar situation!

This is exactly why I never run a touring tire on the front. The lions share of bike crashes are due to loss of traction on the front. I'm very happy to spend a few more bucks for increased front end traction.

 

[soundman]

This guy is also the poster child for proper protective gear.

Examining the video I find a perfect example of panic braking. There is no way to be sure that a pure sport tire would have behaved any diffently in this situation. The massive, extremely fast dive of the front end shows that dude just plain old fashioned panicked. This scenario is exactly why EVERY time I go for a ride I practice a few panic stops, just to calibrate my brain in case the real thing happens. IMHO braking practice would have done this guy much more justice than a more expensive set of tires.

 

[Tufbusa]

Examining the video I find a perfect example of panic braking. There is no way to be sure that a pure sport tire would have behaved any diffently in this situation. The massive, extremely fast dive of the front end shows that dude just plain old fashioned panicked. This scenario is exactly why EVERY time I go for a ride I practice a few panic stops, just to calibrate my brain in case the real thing happens. IMHO braking practice would have done this guy much more justice than a more expensive set of tires.

Good point. Lack of skill was the common denominator for the crash. My point is, the rider had no chance of avoiding the crash on a touring tire. He may very well have avoided the crash on a performance tire.

Touring tires are slower to heat up due to their heavy stiff carcass. Simply has more mass to heat and less flex to create heat. At no point will a touring tire give more grip than a street performance tire.

Here is a simple way to compare a touring tire with a performance tire. Apply the brakes until the rear tire lifts off the pavement or it locks. You'll instantly know the difference.

This is my point! No tire is going to save you from crashing in every situation. Elevated skills and common sense is your best asset for avoiding a crash. However, since most single bike crashes are due to loss of traction I can say with certainty that one is much more apt to loose grip and fall down on touring tires over perfomance tires.

Only YOU can decide how much traction you need and make your own choice accordingly.

Tires are by far the most important aspect of riding you will ever purchase! Choose wisely!

 

[soundman]

Another seemingly reputable review I found. Seems to confirm what has been said before.

Shinko Tires - Test/Review - The Sportbikes Website

 

[soundman]

I've been trying to find it all day and can't but Superbike magazine did a tire test at the Nurburgring a couple of years ago with the latest sticky sport tires. Once they were done they took a set of one manufacturers Sport touring tires (I seem to recall that it was Michelin) and did a lap and was within a minute or so of the best time from their Sport tire. That's over a 17 mile lap. Their conclusion was that you could never ride this fast on a public road so the sport touring tire provided even advanced street riders with all of the traction that they would ever need. The main difference was that the sport tires showed significant wear the sport touring tires showed almost none.
Tuf, I can't say that I agree with you about the grip of Sport Touring vs. Sport tires. Indeed a sport touring tire is stiffer and heavier than a comparable sport tire but the chemical composition of a ST tire is such that it give maximum grip at a lower temperature so ST tires are ready to give you at least acceptable levels of grip right out of your driveway whereas a sport tire's chemical composition is designed for higher temps but don't give as much initial grip. Sport tires do give better grip once up to temperature but most of a rider's time is spent piddling around at speeds that don't allow a sport tire to get anywhere near optimum temperature.

 

[AJAY]

Tuf, I can't say that I agree with you about the grip of Sport Touring vs. Sport tires.

Soundman, you've made some great points and I agree with you that Shinko makes very good street tires that are also extremely good value. But in defense of Tufbusa (who is perfectly capable of defending himself!!), I believe he is currently running a Bridgestone BT-023 SPORT TOURING tire on the rear.

And as I've written before, just about any new tire is better than riding on a set of old, hard, worn out tires with distorted profiles and no tread. If the low cost of Shinkos enables you to get on a new set of tires, that's a good thing.

 

[soundman]

"At no point will a touring tire give more grip than a street performance tire."
It's overly broad, innacurate statements like this that I have an issue with the most. Sport touring typically offer better grip under normal street riding conditions than a comparable Sport tire. It's when pace and temperature go up that the Sport tire passes the sport touring tire, but most people don't reach this level on a regular basis when riding on the street. This is why sport touring tires get greasy when ridden hard and race slicks offer almost no grip when ridden on the street.

Actually I've enjoyed sparring back and forth with Tuf and enjoy his enthusiasm and passion.

 

[fastblackblur]

"At no point will a touring tire give more grip than a street performance tire."
It's overly broad, innacurate statements like this that I have an issue with the most. Sport touring typically offer better grip under normal street riding conditions than a comparable Sport tire. It's when pace and temperature go up that the Sport tire passes the sport touring tire, but most people don't reach this level on a regular basis when riding on the street. This is why sport touring tires get greasy when ridden hard and race slicks offer almost no grip when ridden on the street.

Actually I've enjoyed sparring back and forth with Tuf and enjoy his enthusiasm and passion.

Going to have to side with Steven on this one. With pressures set appropriately a touring tire is not going to keep up hypersport tire performance wise in any situation. Same goes for racing tires, there is no point at which the tire has less performance. I never realized how much my Q2's were sliding around until I tried a set of 211 NTECs. Biggest thing about not running race tires on the street is they cost between $350-500 a set and last less than 500 miles in most cases.

Not to say sport touring tires are not without their merits. I'd use them if I took my bike on regular road trips but I rarely go further than 200miles round trip, occasionaly 300.

 

[hotrod_rick1]

..

 

[Tufbusa]

Soundman, you bring up some good points but you are a wee bit misguided in the tire performance department.

All things being equal, no touring tire can equal the grip of a performance tire. One of the aspects of touring tires that extends their life is the stiff carcass as it creates less heat and a cooler tire will last longer than a hot tire. The compound has little to do with creating heat, it's the flex in the carcass. Although contact friction is a contributing factor.

Longivity and grip have a very close relationship with each other. Generally speaking, the longer the tire lasts the less grip it has. Typical example is the michelin PP2ct & Pilot Road or the Bridgestone BT016 & BT023. One has grip and one has mileage but neither can have both!

You can't have it both ways. You can't have tons of grip and high mileage, it's one or the other or maybe somewhere in between. It's up to you to decide what requirements meet your needs. You've heard that old cliche' "How fast can you afford to go"? Well, that's also true for tires "How much grip can you afford to buy"?

 

[soundman]

Going to have to side with Steven on this one. With pressures set appropriately a touring tire is not going to keep up hypersport tire performance wise in any situation. Same goes for racing tires, there is no point at which the tire has less performance. I never realized how much my Q2's were sliding around until I tried a set of 211 NTECs. Biggest thing about not running race tires on the street is they cost between $350-500 a set and last less than 500 miles in most cases.

Not to say sport touring tires are not without their merits. I'd use them if I took my bike on regular road trips but I rarely go further than 200miles round trip, occasionaly 300.

How bout we let real experts have their say

.: Motorcycle Tire Tips | Canyon Chasers Motorcycle Sport Touring :.

"The street rider who uses race compound tires is simply wasting their money and taking unnecessary risks. Even the fastest street rider is probably not (and should not) be able to get the tire up to its optimum temperature to reap the benefits of the added traction. Street riders are forced to stop for stoplights, police officers and traffic in general. They are also a full-on idiot if they ride at 100-percent ability, as fast as they can, in a street environment. However, the race tire is still outgassing at the same rate it would if it were being used on the racetrack even though the tire will never reach operating temperature, and never achieve optimum levels of cohesion."

"Street riders will, however, get a greater level of traction and more life out of a street tire that is designed to withstand hundreds of heat cycles and operate at a lower temperature. And in fact, most modern "sport-touring" tires will provide a better level of grip for 90% of all street riders than sportier counterparts. Only an elite few, and they are probably not reading this anyway, can use the full potential of a Michelin Pilot Power or Dunlop Qualifier. In fact, its quite amazing what skilled riders can do on modern sport-touring tires like the Michelin Pilot Road or Continetal Road Attacks - skilled riders can still drag knees around corners with these supposedly "hard" tires."

Or how bout this?

Understand Motorcycle Tires @ MotorCycleAnchor.COM

"Running a pure-sports tire, such as a Pirelli Diablo Corsa or Metzeler M3 or M1, without the constant on-brakes & change of direction input it needs in order to be kept in it's ideal operating temp range will means a seriously loss of traction compared to running a sports-touring tire that doesn't need that kind of input... In the same sense, running a sports-touring tire if you use the bike solely for track day sessions or are constantly knee-down canyon-carving is insanity. The right tire for the right task makes a huge difference in everything from stopping distances to outright grip-on-demand."

How to choose the right motorcycle tires. Street Tires vs Race Tires - Sport Rider

"Race tires are specifically meant to do one thing: Stick like glue, for one heat cycle. To that end, they are designed with an entirely different philosophy from street tires, and those differences make them unsuitable for street use."

There's probably more out there but I'm tired and have to be awake at 5:30 am.

 

[Tufbusa]

I'm sorry my man, I never mentioned race tires! I think you missed the entire point!

I've never heard of Motorcycleanchor.com but whomever wrote that article should put the bong down!

 

[soundman]

Actually part of that post was addressing the post by fastblackblur which said

"Going to have to side with Steven on this one. With pressures set appropriately a touring tire is not going to keep up hypersport tire performance wise in any situation. Same goes for racing tires, there is no point at which the tire has less performance. I never realized how much my Q2's were sliding around until I tried a set of 211 NTECs. Biggest thing about not running race tires on the street is they cost between $350-500 a set and last less than 500 miles in most cases."

As for the motorcycleanchor.com article did you actually read the article? Incredibly informative and full of technical detail. I don't see how you can say that they should put the bong down.

"Now, let's go back to those two major chemical additives (carbon black and silica). By varying the percentages of these two chemicals in the formation of the tire's compounds, manufacturers can vary the hardness or softness of the tire, as well as the tackiness or grippiness of the tire. Replacing most the carbon black with silica reduces the hardness of the tire but promotes strength between the rubber molecules at the same time (and silica runs cooler than carbon black). But, removing most of the carbon black also reduces the lifespan of the tire, and may prompt the tire manufacturer to make a thicker tire to offset the removal of carbon black. Track tires are traditionally high in silica and low in carbon black compared to street tires, because grip is of paramount importance in track environments (and lifespan isn't, since most races are limited to 80 to 150 miles in length).
"

Yep crazy talk of a drug addled mind alright.

I completely understand your point. Your point is that sport tires are the best for every rider in the world, no matter skill level or conditions.

My point is that sport touring tires provide as much performance as 95% of riders will ever need, are ready to go pretty much out of the driveway, and are actually safer for many riders who will never get a true sport tire up to optimum temperature for optimal traction.

I also base my opinions on thousands and thousands of miles ridden on everything from Tomahawk Sport Touring tires to Pirelli race slicks (see picture in previous post.) I have had MANY more close calls and scary incidences on cold sport tires than I ever have on sport touring tires.

 

[afterhours]

I still love my Shinko's....They do what they are designed to do. get me from A to B, not set lap records or win races.

 

[Tufbusa]

Soundman:

You and I are on two seperate ends of the spectrum when it comes to research as well as tires. It's okay to agree to disagree.

The first two sources you quoted has no author. It's simply text on a website that who knows where it came from or it's credibility. Personally, I never use quotes unless I can verify the source. Until you brought them to the forefront I had never heard of either.

As far as the bong smokers on Motorcycleanchor.com, I stand by my analysis. Anyone who would even insinuate a touring tire would out perform a performance tire at any point has serious credibility problems. You are welcome to believe this imiginary author if you like? It could very well be the parts counter employee who has a night job as the greeter at the local all night Wally World? If I believed everything I read on the net I'd get my daily news from the Huffington Post. Believe but verify

You and Dehning both seem to base at least some of your tire knowledge on a forum figure who calls himself "MityMouse" who spends more time on convincing you how fast he can ride the back roads than he does boasting about his shinkos. MityMouse is a local up here in my neck of the woods and I don't think many folks would agree with you on his ability to test tires.

Andrew Trevitt (Sport Rider Mag) is a credible source. I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for Andrew. I had the privilege of riding with Andrew at a Pridmore Race School before his accident. Great guy with a masterful understanding of motorcycles, especially when it comes to suspension. What you quoted from Andrew was a comparison between Race and Street tires. Completely irrevelant to this conversation.

I think this thread has ran it's course so I'm off to do some google research on Mother Goose, Peter Pan, Santa Clause and The Tooth Fairy!

 

[fastblackblur]

The race tire refference was just a supporting statement, basicly hypersports are to sport touring as racing tires are to hypersport. At no time did I state running race tires on the street was a good idea and if it was construed as such I apologize.

Can't get to your references at the moment(work filter) but I will say that tire tech changes pretty quickly and it doesn't take long for articles like that to be out of date.

will read in few when i get home...

 

[mvanlone]

Listen, if you don't mind spending hundreds of dollars each year for more than one set of back tires (considering that you do ride the bike alot), I would never get that model number of tire. Those should really be for track or drag. The back tires will eat up quickly. I run shink tires ONLY and the ones you want is the 009 RAVEN RADIAL. The 009 Tire has the best tire compound that will last the longest than the ones that you are looking at. TRUST ME !!!!