Help With A Ferrari/busa Build?

[turbo-minivan]

hi all. im new and live in Alberta Canada. im new to this engine but not new to big power engines, turbos or custom fab work.

im wondering if this is the place to ask and get some insight from those who know a lot more than me here

im building a 1961 Ferrari 156 'sharknose' F-1 from scratch and will be powering it with a chain driven 2003 turbo busa motor. i bought a complete and well maintained 2003 hayabusa and tore it down, so i have every single piece that made it go and stop along with complete harnesses and gauges. my plan is about 6psi with a gt-25, NO MORE than 300hp, and stock internals (as much as im able anyways). the car will weigh between 950-1050 lbs and will be driven on the street/track. not launched or drag raced, and not abused with hard clutch dumps, but spiritedly driven of course... like an F1 would be on the track.

right now i am just collecting pieces while i finish up another project for my brother. i should begin on the frame within a month or 2.

my basic questions right now are....
-what do you think i should do about upgrading the clutch area? my plans were to put in tougher springs and look into a billet output shaft. thoughts? is a billet shaft a must for going turbo? (again, i dont plan to hard launch or clutch dump the car).

-what is the best reliable and user friendly route for fuel management for my turbo set up? it will be a complete custom set up with lots of fab work involved of course. whats out there for programmers? re-flashes? complete custom tunes??

-will my stock fuel system and injectors support in the range just under 300hp? how far will my stock fueling get me and how much bigger should i plan to go for that 300hp range?

-as for sprocket tooth counts, i wonder if i should go up a few teeth on the large sprocket or down a few on the smaller one to get a bit more low end torque. thoughts? i dont need or want this car to be a top speed style car. id much rather have a very nice mid range to upper mid range power band feel to come hard out of the corners, but i would never plan to do insane top speed runs with something home made in my garage. haha
if i remember right, my tires are 27" tall

i hope its ok that i have an odd ball vehicle here. from the things ive stumbled across on the net while searching, this seems to be a friendly place to ask questions.

here are a few photos of what im starting with and what im working towards.
the reason im doing this, for those interested, is there were 8 of these true ferraris made for F-1 between 1961-63 and in 1964, all 8 were crushed and destroyed. there is ONE replica in the world (as truly pure as one could get) and it is of priceless value with i believe a $4M+ build cost over a 7 year period. my goal is to build one with my own 2 hands in a home garage with tube and carbon fiber, on a budget of $14,000 in about a year and a half..... and get it registered for the street.

 

[hendrixgr]

Hi.
I don't have all the answers but you are in for a magic and expensive voyage.
Now you must wait because there are many very knowledgeable people in here.
Meanwhile i suggest to buy a turbo kit from RCC since you are already in Canada (you can assemble a turbo kit your self but i reccomend against it), to lower compression to at least 10:1 or lower (not needed for less than 7-8 psi of boost) with turbo pistons or just a thicker gasket if you want to cheap, hardened head studs is a must, a dry sump system because you are fitting the engine to a car which does not tilt (this i consider a must for a car installation or you risk hurting the rod and main bearings due to oil starvation in the corners), a hardened output shaft or one from the gen2 engine (you can skip this for later), harder clutch springs (cheaper) or boost controlled clutch, stock reflashed ecu with power commander V pti and ID 550cc injectors with 1:1 fuel regulator (stock injectors will not reach 300hp) or used honda s2000 injectors with an FMU as a cheaper option, absolutely water injection and an intercooler if possible.
Also invest in instrumentation like a logger, an AFR (air to fuel ratio) failsafe meter, a boost controller (AEM makes an AFR meter with failsafe and boost controller in a single instrument), an oil pressure gauge, an oil temperature gauge, etc.
The list can go on and on but those i consider basic mods.
Wait for the more experienced ones to answer your questions also.
Chris

 

[OZBooster]

I have been involved in a couple of busa powered Westfield builds , main thing i see with car fitment is case half fretting , use main studs and be particular with mains bore after fitting, you may need to oversize the bolt holes if the cases dont just drop home to fully mated , and check for ovality and size when tensioned
Other thing with car fitment , if you ever spin out clutch it immediately, rolling backwards in gear can engage the starter clutch and overspeed it big time,
I also think you should talk to Richard at RCC , for turbo kit
engine management , think about a standalone, retrofit gen 2 ecu and harness works good with good ign and boost based fueling and boost control but the technology has been bypassed with flashing as mainstream has gone more into NA stuff
its still available, but i can see one day the editor program needed will not be hosted or flash control boxes no longer available

 

[turbo-minivan]

thanks for the reply hendrixgr. ill build the turbo kit from scratch. thats not an issue. i have experience there. i have a genuine internally gated garret gt25 for a quick spool, intercooler, AFPR, EGT gauge, wideband A/F gauge, BOV, large oil cooler, oil pressure and temp gauges, 3 core rad, and on and on. ill fab up my exhaust manifold and intake. i plan to stay under 8psi for sure. at 1000lbs, this thing will move out super hard even with 220hp, so whatever power i can get in the 6-8psi range while keeping things safe on stock internals ill be ok with. ive done the huge power thing and its just impractical. (just sold a 3000lb rat rod with a 850hp/1505tq diesel that i built from scratch. fun but near un-driveable. not interested in doing that again)
its more the drive line on these im not sure about, as for what they can handle in the heavier car, as well as what upgrades ill need to support that light boost.

 

[turbo-minivan]

so your saying to be sure the engine is tightly tensioned into the frame similar to how it is mounted in the bike frame when i do it? i assume you are meaning that that tension within the frame give the case a good amount of extra strength? did i read that right? not sure if im following OZBooster

 

[turbo-minivan]

i hear what your saying about the spinning out or rolling backwards. makes sense.
side note (speaking of ending up in 'reverse' haha)... my reverse gear will be set up with a small starter motor and ring gear on the axle. like many other builds or huge bikes.

is anyone still doing fueling the old school way with a RRR? (rising rate regulator)
on a budget and keeping with mild boost, would this be worth looking into?
i remember it being a big thing when i was young and poor, building boosted cars in high-school.

also, are there different grades of clutch spring kits? some brands better than others? or are they all the same as "heavy duty" clutch springs?

sorry for all the random questions all over the place, but your helping build a Ferrari, so that should make you feel cool

 

[hendrixgr]

is anyone still doing fueling the old school way with a RRR? (rising rate regulator)

I think it is called FMU in here.
Basically it is a 6:1 (approximately) fuel regulator.
Chris

 

[OZBooster]

However you mount it in the frame, the case halves move on each other just a little , enough to polish and in some cases transfer a very small amount of aluminium at the load points near main bolts , the higher tension of the aftermarket main studs helps , but as noted above and i cant stress this enough you have to check the main bearing bore after dummy case assembly & tensioning
there are various clutch springs available , the ones you want are extra long and have top hat end washers with allen head bolts securing
Internal gated GT25 will boost creep without some porting on housing outlet , and turbo is pretty small for a busa , look for the bigger AR exhaust housing
i personally would trade all the gauges for a logger when your fully occupied with driving is when you most need to know whats going on , camera can turn the gauges into a logger if you need
FMU based systems are still available, updates have been done on the FMU that makes them more reliable , no more shims to crease

 

[turbo-minivan]

^thanks.
so your saying to go with ARP case/main studs and check my main bearing to crank clearance before final assembly... because the factory bolts allow the case halves to slightly wear on each other, making the main bores slightly tighter?? (just repeating it back as understand it, to be sure im clear on the concept)

is a billet output shaft a must? im thinking i will go that route anyways if its even slightly recommended. i dont want to risk a cracked case if i break the factory one.
as for the clutch i was thinking of going with a fresh set of APE's "trac king" clutches and their "super heavy duty clutch springs" (like what you described above) as well as a clutch cover support.
http://www.hayabusazone.com/clutch.html
i was also thinking about a power-commander 5, and S2000 injectors ?? (i can get a set for $100). i assume commander-V would do everything i need as far as a remap for 6psi boost on larger injectors with a standard adjustable fuel pressure regulator? or do i use a stock AFR for this? forgive me, im new to ECU flashing and tuning and such. im old school and have always done tuning by hand.

can someone tell me a bit about power-commanders 'quick shift' sensor? from what it looks like, it seems to be similar to a brake light switch in that as soon as it see pressure of the gear lever, it opens a circuit and cuts the ignition for a split second as you shift. ??
would this be a bad idea in a car application? or a must have?

lately i have been working on my hubs and steering for the car and researching the right parts i need to go with, before i build the frame, so the motor stuff has taken a back seat.
all your guys's though advise is very appreciated!!

i haven't opened this motor or any bike motor before so thats why im slower to follow some of the stuff being shared. harder to understand before getting hands on.

 

[hendrixgr]

You are correct a stronger output shaft and undercutting the gear teeth are very good if not necessary modifications, you can fit the gen2 geabox but you will need the covers also, see here http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=191667
or here https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/gen2-trans-on-gen1-outputshaft.186932/
I would also use the ARP or APE case and head studs.
Beware that if you use stronger clutch springs you MUST install a clutch slave cylinder support block otherwise the slave clutch cylinder cover will crack.
Like this http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5337943218&icep_item=170192323657
I consider the pc5 pti a must for tuning and if you use a rising rate fuel regulator the S2000 injectors are good up to 300-320hp.
With a 1:1 regulator the limit of the S2000 is about 270hp
Thats all i know so far.

 

[turbo-minivan]

thank you. great info. ive been trolling APEs site and have made myself a list of the things i think i need.
so far the list is.....
-power commander 5-PTI (from other retailer)
-track king clutches
-HD clutch springs
-clutch slave support
-head studs and nuts
-counter shaft case stud
-main studs and nuts
-tool steel shift rods
-billet output shaft with sprocket and nut
-head gasket

now as far as head gaskets go, im planning a mild 5-6psi of boost and under 300hp (250-280hp), but i assume i will be removing the head in order to do head studs? or not...??
either way im sure a head gasket is a good idea. is there a slightly thicker head gasket out there to drop compression a touch? or should i just use a standard head gasket?
also, what about a base gasket? should i change this or will i need to? obviously id like to not delve into anything i dont HAVE to.

im also still wondering about the PC "quick shift" sensor. from reading, it seems they are only good for clutchless UP-SHIFTS, but down-shifts still require the use of the clutch lever??
being as im building a car, id like to also be able to downshift in this same way. i may just design a clutch/shift lever that incorporates both systems acting in unison, so they act at the same time by the pull of one lever and can be dialed in. or heck, worst case i just put the clutch on the floor like a typical car.... but that Formula-1 instant shift sound though!!!

 

[hendrixgr]

If you remove the head you have to use a new gasket.
Now for 6psi i would use the stock gasket and not the Cometic but that is my opinion, everybody else change the stock head gasket with a Cometic.
I suggest to search/ask more people about what head gasket to use.
You will have to ask someone else about the shifter because i never used it, why don't you send an email
to Dynojet directly?
I have seen an electric shifter here http://www.pingelonline.com/prodcat/electric-speed-shifters.asp
but as i said i know nothing about shifters.
Chris

 

[turbo-minivan]

awesome... but expensive! :0 haha. i suppose i have allot of time to look into the final idea for shifting if i go that way. i need to build a car around this motor much before then
yes i was thinging a regular head gasket would do it, just wondering if there are thicker ones to be found to drop compression by a touch.

 

[hendrixgr]

What i (and all the others i suppose) have done is to use the stock head gasket thickness and add a 0.080'' thick base gasket
(between the piston block and the case).
https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/spacer-for-lowering-compression-s.57541/
I hope i helped you a bit.
Chris

 

[turbo-minivan]

alright, after much contemplation, i think i better off to stay N/A on this project car. im not looking for an all out speed machine and i dont want to have to feather the throttle everywhere i go, and it would be nice to save a few bucks and keep it a bit more reliable too so i think N/A is the way to stay.
this being the case, i can obviously get away without head studs and a shim, but i was thinking to still do the shift shafts, billet output shaft, main studs, clutches, and springs.

is spending some cash on cams and head work worth the cost vs. turbo? what hp do you think i could realistically get with some head work or added cams?
if staying NA, anything else i should consider or not worry about in a 1000lb car?

 

[Mathewrussell52]

Turbo or no turbo it will still be sick. When we are doing a turbo mod it's a lot and we are not building a custom made one of a kind car. Either way keep a post going want to see this thing.

 

[hendrixgr]

is spending some cash on cams and head work worth the cost vs. turbo? what hp do you think i could realistically get with some head work or added cams?
if staying NA, anything else i should consider or not worry about in a 1000lb car?

I think that it is better to go NA for now and save some capital with a provision for turbo later on.
Cost wise the turbo is the most economic choice when above 200 hp is the goal.
For a NA engine i would do some not expensive head work, increase compression to the gen2 engine level, change the exhaust manifold included, install a second intake cam to the exhaust side, and give it a good tune, that should put you close to the 200 hp mark but because i haven't done it my self you should ask other people in here about what mods are the best.
There is also the option of replacing the gen1 crank and con rods with a gen2 crank and con rods in order to gain 40cc and more power.
Have a look here https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/how-do-you-mod-your-busa-engine-for-performance.189009/
and here
https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/exhaust-cam-swap-w-intake-cam.91258/

 

[turbo-minivan]

^ thanks. Ive been busy on other areas of the car but i did make a good size order of some things from APE. For now i will see what the base power will give me in the car and ill upgrade from there as i go once its on the road.
I bought a billet output shaft, smaller drive sprocket, bottom end studs, monster clutches and springs, slave support, gasket kit and a few other things to keep the engine together.
Lately ive been finishing the chassis and doing all my math for control arm geometry and roll centers and such. It should handle just like the real thong if not even better.
Ill post some pictures soon

 

[OZBooster]

Check the bottom end studs for clearance in the lower case holes, you may have to oversize the holes to get a contact free fit , if they perch the cases across even a little bit when tensioned you will eventually damage the bearings and crank

 

[turbo-minivan]

^ thanks! i will check that for sure once im starting back up that road.

i finally have my parts and i think im ready to open the motor.
i have never opened a bike engines bottom end before. i have looked across youtube but i cant seem to find a good tear down vid of the bottom end.
i assume its as simple as taking anything apart and just going slow, but id like a video to follow or a write up on getting down enough to install my Billet output shaft and steel shift shafts and so on if one exists out there. anything is better than going in blind.

also, i remember reading or hearing about these engines having balance shafts? is that correct? do guys leave them in or take them out? back in my youth with turbo dodge cars, we always took out the balance shafts to reduce weight and unnecessary rotating mass. whats the story for these engines??