Difference in weights for synthetic oils

(gsxr1100 @ July 21 2005 said:
(Cuffee @ July 20 2005 said:
Thanks for all the information! I am still kind of clueless.
Click to expand...
on what? I have been testing oils since about 1996. Been asked many questions. There is no dumb one.

Basically the motor eats up the VI (viscosity index). It is kind of a balancing game. You want loads of Ca (calcium-Detergents, dispersants, acid neutralizer.) for the oil and you want Zinc (Antioxidant, corrosion inhibitor, anti-wear additive, detergent,) and Phos (Antirust agent, spark plug & combustion chamber deposit reducer.) This is ZDDP. Now a high TBN helps but that is not integral to a good oil or an oil lasting a long time. Also these help prevent oxd from forming.

Also oils are tested with HTHS High Temperature & High Shear. The higher the number the less the number will shear or thin out. I would stick to oils above 3.5 to 4.0 cP. The good oils are 4.0 to 5.0.

Moly in the oil is a catch 22. It can help but can kill the oil in the long run.
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I guess Mobil 1 is pretty good after all. Thanks for breaking it down to me! I wish I could have seen some information on Amsoil...So what is your opinion of Mobil 1 vs Amsoil? Do you know what the HTHS for both of the oils mentioned above. Also, does oil play a role in causing you bike to heat up?
Thanks,
D-
 
Amsoil’s oil have:

20w-50 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW): HTHS =6.02
TBN=11.0
VI=153
Noack Volatility=3.89% (great number)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=20.1 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=151 cSt
CCS=5609
Pour point=-38 F
Flash Point=464 F
ZDDP 1031 & 946
Ca 3852

10w-40 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW)
HTHS= 4.52
VI= 152
TBN 11.0
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=13.9 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=93 cSt
CCS=6794
Pour point=-51 F
Flash Point=453 F
ZDDP 1358 & 1245 (about 300ppm more then there old bike oil)
Ca 3094 ppm

-----------------
But now Amsoil's Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil
passed JASO MB and VTW!

JASO MA oils MUST have a low ash content in them. MA is relatively higher friction oil and MB is MB is lower friction oil.



<!--EDIT|gsxr1100
Reason for Edit: None given...|1122005322 -->
 
(gsxr1100 @ July 21 2005 said:
Amsoil’s oil have:

20w-50 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW): HTHS =6.02
TBN=11.0
VI=153
Noack Volatility=3.89% (great number)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=20.1 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=151 cSt
CCS=5609
Pour point=-38 F
Flash Point=464 F
ZDDP 1031 & 946
Ca 3852

10w-40 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW)
HTHS= 4.52
VI= 152
TBN 11.0
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=13.9 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=93 cSt
CCS=6794
Pour point=-51 F
Flash Point=453 F
ZDDP 1358 & 1245 (about 300ppm more then there old bike oil)
Ca 3094 ppm

-----------------
But now Amsoil's Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil
passed JASO MB and VTW!

JASO MA oils MUST have a low ash content in them. MA is relatively higher friction oil and MB is MB is lower friction oil.
Click to expand...
Does 10w-40 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW) = Mobil 1 MX4T?
 
No, all the above tests (posted at July 21 2005,16:44) are Amsoil new bike oil.



<!--EDIT|gsxr1100
Reason for Edit: None given...|1122016292 -->
 
It is a trade off. I like the higher HTHS since a higher HTHS is related to less wear. (SAE paper #980702, 'Properties of Engine Bearings Lubricated with Low HTHS Viscosity Oil' ) .

I like the higher Ca and ZAAP. Moly in the oil is good short term but not long.

Maybe I am one-sided, but I dislike Mobil since there Customer Service people are rude and need some techincal data help. I did use this oils at one time but I had enough.  Also they used to have long drains opn Mobil 1 back in the 1970's; then they stopped. Now they are back for round 2.

I only hope Mobil does not have ash like there oil products do. Even there Ep oil have Sulfated Ash in them; which I dislike.

But I would run both and then test the oil. Then see which on works better for you application.

Or go by price first. They are both good but you would need to see a test ojn both to see which on wins for you.

But some far Amsoil is working great in my gsxr, my Kubota BX22 tractor and my Lexus. Also worked just fine in my old diesel truck and my 5.0 mustang.



<!--EDIT|gsxr1100
Reason for Edit: None given...|1122029091 -->
 
(gsxr1100 @ July 21 2005 said:
It is a trade off. I like the higher HTHS since a higher HTHS is related to less wear. (SAE paper #980702, 'Properties of Engine Bearings Lubricated with Low HTHS Viscosity Oil' ) .

I like the higher Ca and ZAAP. Moly in the oil is good short term but not long.

Maybe I am one-sided, but I dislike Mobil since there Customer Service people are rude and need some techincal data help. I did use this oils at one time but I had enough.  Also they used to have long drains opn Mobil 1 back in the 1970's; then they stopped. Now they are back for round 2.

I only hope Mobil does not have ash like there oil products do. Even there Ep oil have Sulfated Ash in them; which I dislike.

But I would run both and then test the oil. Then see which on works better for you application.

Or go by price first. They are both good but you would need to see a test ojn both to see which on wins for you.

But some far Amsoil is working great in my gsxr, my Kubota BX22 tractor and my Lexus. Also worked just fine in my old diesel truck and my 5.0 mustang.
Click to expand...
I like Amsoil because of the price and availability. I really have a hard time finding Mobil 1. When I do find it the price is crazy! A quart will run you about $12.99. Amsoil is cheaper and all I have to do is call the company and they will ship it out to me with no problem. So I guess I am leaning back to Amsoil....
 
$12.99 per qt for Mobil 1
rock.gif
? WOW that is high..Amsoil best oil is not that much.
 
I can tell you what dealers pay for Amsoil, but there is another pricing if they buy in case lots. this is cheaper.
 
I believe the biggest danger with bike oils is viscosity shear. Transmission and clutch add to the problem.

That is why I'm leary of 5/40 and 10/40 weights. These weights are safer in synthetics of course.

The less spread in viscosity the less shear is likely. 15/40, 20/40, and 20/50 should be more durable.

Straight 30, 40, and 50 weight oils should breakdown the least but offer little cold start protection.

Ash content is a catch 22 situation. Less ash means less detergent = shorter drain intervals and lesser ability to clean engine.

More ash = more detergents(and other additives) and longer drain intervals with cleaner engine. Ash is said to cushion valve face to valve seat extending valve life. On the downside ash can result in more combustion chamber carbon.

We should avoid oils with more than 1.5 percent ash. Most deisel oils have high ash. Some as high as 1.6 but 1.4 to 1.5 seems to be the standard.

Ultimately, depending on your weather temperatures, a 15/40, 20/40, or 20/50 with 1.2 percent ash or lower should be ideal oils. With shorter drain intervals apparent.

Yamaha pushes and recommends their 20/40 with solid reasoning behind the recommendation.
 
I agree and that is why group 1 to group 3 oils are poor in bikes. There VI and HTHS are way to low.

As you stated Ash is a catch 22; BUT you can have a good and great oil WITHOUT ASH. I am doing over 12K drain in my Lexus and there is no ash in the oil to start. You have other adds in oil like TBN, Ca, ZDDP, Mg, Moly (short term) etc that will help.

In my eyes you do not need Ash in the oil since it will over time cause your OXD and Nix to go up. Also not all diesel oils have ash. Yes most are 1.2 to 1.4 and some/many car oils do too but ash also does harm too (emission wise).

But for me, the less ash the better since ash is a result of the burning process.

Ash tends to form hard deposits in combustion chambers, ring grooves and can cause mis-firings in spark plugs. These are not want on bikes since the temps are higher.

Anything thing is that if any oil passes MB sheet 229.31 (low ash" Oils They are called LA "low ash" oils, low on sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulphur to limit particle filter pollution. Oils high in e.g. ZDDP additive can not qualify.) and they state extended drain, that is a great oil in my eyes. Plus airplane oils do not have ash. If you have a turbo I would not want ash.

Anything thing is if you oil has ash in it (any level) and your oil has a high Noack Volatility, you ash levels will go up since the ash does not burn off.
 
I noticed that. Before you go into the topic (up 1 level from the topic itself) the names when last posted ARE messed up (slow in time). But once you open the topic, they are fine......
 
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