very interesting thread. I wlways wanted to be a helicopter pilot, but with as much trouble as i have keeping a car license, i cant imagine the world would give me a third axis to play with.
Mr. Bogus is correct. Helicopter training raises the ante by a significant amount. The last time I checked, most helicopter pilot jobs paid between $40k and $70k. The upside at present does not bode well for return on investment.
But I don't think you can get a speeding ticket in the air... can you???? I mean... no school zones at least.
There are speed limits that vary with the type of airspace you are operating in, and for sequencing purposes, controllers will assign speeds you must maintain with very tight margins. When operating in congested airspace around New York, it is not uncommon to get a new speed assignment every five minutes or so.
Violations are treated in a number of ways...up to suspension of license...unemployment.
I'm 24. 25 in feb.
Married wife 1 kid.
I work away from home now and althoguh I like my family, job, and etc my line of work can't keep going forever. I can make a. Living doing several things but I want something more proffesional I guess would be the word. Not so working man. Not that there's anything wrong with it but I wanna try other things.
Pay, is my biggest thing. What is first year pay, and how do pilots get paid. Hourly, per flight, also do you stay overnight on the road or fly home and stay.
Do you get per diem?
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You're already familiar with what it's like to be away from home for extended periods of time. Last summer I was away from home between 300 and 330 hours per month...
for the same money I earned the summer before when I was at work a more reasonable 180-200 hours per month.
First year pay at any regional airline is going to be between $16,000 (Colgan Airlines), and at best $23,000 at one of the higher quality carriers.
First year pay at a legacy airline, i.e. Delta, Continental, United, U.S. Airways is going to range between about $33,000 and $42,000.
Airlines will spend between $10,000 and $20,000 to meet training requirements for their new pilots. This is what they use to justify the ridiculous first year pay.
Mattstang, you'll qualify for food stamps and public assistance as a pilot for a regional airline during the first year...and maybe even the second.
Second year pay is a bit more reasonable...though still not something to write home about. Most regional airlines will pay between $30k and $33k the second year. Legacy airlines pay about $60k to $70k second year.
There's no point seriously discussing legacy airlines at this point. You're not going to get a job there straight out of school for the forseeable future. Instead, you might get to work for a regional airline.
Picking a regional airline to work for is like playing russian roulette with five bullets in the magazine. One out of six is going to grow and prosper, allowing you to upgrade to the Captain position in a reasonable amount of time...which brings pay up to the $65k - $70k range at about year three...and allowing you to build the kind of experience the legacy airlines mandate. Ultimately, if you choose to remain a Captain at a regional airline, you currently should expect to be able to earn about $85k after about ten years of service, and between $95k and $110k annually once you reach the top pay scale wages after fifteen to twenty years
with the same company. If your company goes out of business or lays you off...you're starting over again at the bottom somewhere else.
There is no national seniority list. This is a huge problem in this profession that doctors and attorneys don't have. Once you leave one airline for another either by choice or because of incompetent management, your previous experience becomes all but worthless.
If you don't pull the trigger on that empty chamber, you are looking at getting laid off, or perhaps even worse, stagnating at the $35k-$50k level for a decade or longer as your airline shrinks. Such has been my fate. The opportunity to upgrade to the Captain position was available for a few years, but it required being based in New York...and as I've developed other business interests locally, and my wife is established in her profession locally it didn't make financial sense to move or commute for an extra $15k/yr. after taxes.
Pay is generally the greater of what you actually flew, 1/2 of the time you were on duty, or 1/4 of the time you were away from home...unfortunately these are calculated on a monthly basis. Each airline has a different contract. The better airlines will pay you if the flight you were scheduled to operate is cancelled...the less desirable will not in a subtle attempt to encourage you to accept higher risks than are prudent because your mortgage payment is due.
A typical day for an airline pilot can easily run fourteen hours. Here's what I did one day last summer...
0600: report at domicile (home) base to start a four day trip.
0700: depart Cincinnati for Detroit.
0800: finish postflight duties after arriving in Detroit.
0801 - 1230: wander around the terminal. Eat breakfast. Decide to wait for lunch. Search for an electrical outlet somewhere to plug the laptop into. Take some phone calls for my other business interests. Talk my wife through how to shut the water off to one of the toilets because it's leaking. Decide whether to call a plumber or defer fixing the toilet until I get home four days from now. Produce a few "gifts" for the Detroit sanitation department.
1231: report back to aircraft for a 1:00 departure to, of all places, Dayton, Ohio.
1530: back at Detroit again after successfully completing the Dayton turn. Go get lunch. Search for an electrical outlet somewhere to plug the laptop into. Take some phone calls for my other business interests. Chronic fatigue is begining to manifest itself...not from today's work, but the assinine schedules I've been operating for the last couple of months. Wonder what people would think if I laid down on the floor and took a nap? The company is too cheap to have an operations area here where I can go get some rest. Guess I'll go back to the airplane and try to sleep there for an hour or so. After all, our last flight for today isn't scheduled to depart for Greensboro, NC for another three hours.
1700: awakened on airplane by ground staff throwing cases of soda into the airplane for the Flight Attendant to stock. One can of soda ruptured on impact, and now I have sticky Mt. Dew on my shirt and face. Remove tie and shirt, and wash in lavatory sink. The water has a funny odor to it. Hang shirt over passenger seat to dry. There's still an hour and a half before we depart...it should dry.
1730: Call from company. Change of plans. It seems due to thunderstorms, another crew here doesn't have an aircraft for a flight to New York. Dispatch, in their infinite wisdom, has decided that crew should take the airplane we're in. Pack up my 35lbs worth of manuals. Put on cold, wet shirt. Wonder if any passengers are going to notice my nipples are hard while I walk through the terminal.
1800: Call Dispatch. "Just curious where our new aircraft is, as we're scheduled to depart now?" "What's that?" "Our new aircraft hasn't left New York yet?" Debate whether I should vent frustration by yelling the f-bomb inside the terminal. Decide against and allow my blood pressure to rise instead.
1805: Leave the gate area. I learned long ago not to hang around with my passengers...particularly since I'm not getting paid right now...yet somehow I could still get fired for choking one of them after they decide to vent their frustrations on me. I'll find a strategic position elsewhere in the terminal where I can watch for the arrival of our aircraft instead.
2030: Depart Detroit for Greensboro with a full load of pissed off passengers who can't understand how weather can delay their flight when there's not a cloud in the sky over Detroit. Shirt has dried now, but I'll need to wash it again at the hotel in clean water tonight to get rid of the odor. I've been at work over twelve hours now.
2200: Arrive at Greensboro. Wait thirty minutes for the Marriot shuttle to pick us up. Debate walking to the hotel, but not sure how to get there...it's not far. The company found they could save $3/night by putting us in a hotel located at the airport vs. one in a place where there are restaurants and perhaps more importantly, not turbojet aircraft blasting over the hotel all night.
2300: Open door to hotel room. Wash shirt. Iron another shirt that was packed for tomorrow. Try to identify whether that was a General Electric produced turbofan that just caused the glasses on the table to rattle, or if it was a Rolls Royce. Have to get up tomorrow at 0545 to start work at 0600. Better try to get some sleep. Don't start thinking about the fifteen hour workday for five hours of pay...that'll cut another two hours off available sleep time. Wonder if I yell the f-bomb in my hotel room how many rooms will hear it. I can hear the person in the room next to me talking on the telephone as I close my eyes.
2345: Bunch of screaming kids and their equally inconsiderate parents just passed the door to my room. This is going to be a long night.
Per Diem is about $1.50/hr. It used to be $1.65, but the company decided it was more important they buy box seats at the Cincinnati Bengals games, so they got that reduced during bankruptcy.
How old are you?
28
You are still young enough you can pursue this career. Be advised that the older you are, the less likely it is it will make financial sense to pursue a job at a legacy airline.
Do you have a family?
No wife, no kids, parents live in another state
That helps tremendously. We have a different understanding of A.I.D.S. in our industry - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome. I've been fortunate, but the divorce rate for pilots I suspect is about double the national average.
Do you enjoy spending time with your family? (that's a serious question...some people don't)
Yes, but I only see them about once a month if that.
That's good.
Do you enjoy spending holidays with your family and/or friends?
Yes
You're going to need a few years before you can reasonably expect to get weekends and holidays off. Once you upgrade, you'll be looking at even more weekends and holidays away from loved ones as you'll likely be among the most junior Captains. Funny thing...people like to travel during holidays and weekends.
How would you feel about being employed in a position where no matter how "good" you are, or how productive you are, it will have no impact on your career progression?
I feel like im in that position now. But flying is something I have always wanted to do but just never pursued it.
Very well, we're at a null here. Be aware that you may find yourself "trapped" at a significantly lower earning level than you're capable of for many years. Don't pursue a career as a professional pilot because the money seems good.
Again, don't let me discourage you if you really want it. My role here, as I wrote before, is to share what the job truly is...not the glamorous vision many have.
I advise people to train for and enter a different profession that provides a greater return on investment...then get their pilot's license and fly for fun. You get to pick what days you fly. If the weather is crappy, you can just stay home. You can choose who you allow to ride with you. You can go where you want, and return when you want. If you want to do a chandelle, lazy eight, or full power stall you can. Flying professionally allows none of these, and it can kill the love of flying. I haven't been in a general aviation aircraft since I started flying for the airlines...that's the last thing I want to do when I get off work now.
Are you aware that the compensation and quality of life has been in decline for airline pilots for almost thirty years now?
No, I was not aware.
Jobs at the legacy airlines that used to pay $300k-$400k today pay $200k-$300k...and chance plays a far greater role than skill, experience, ambition, and qualifications in deciding who gets those jobs. It is far more likely a pilot entering the profession today is going to spend five to ten years as a First Officer at a regional airline earning $40k-$50k, then the rest of their career earning not more than $100k as a Captain. Today there are more regional airline pilots than there are major airline pilots.
Are you aware that once you become an airline pilot and survive the abysmal first year pay if the management of your airline is not successful and you find yourself unemployed you'll be looking at starting over again at first year pay...even if you have twenty years' experience?
Did not know this either. Why is that?
I touched on this during my discussion of the lack of a national seniority list. A new hire pilot with ten years of experience with airline "a" will be junior to a pilot with only six months experience at the new airline.
Again, it isn't all negative...but flight schools aren't going to share reality with you candidly.
I'll answer a couple more questions I didn't get to in the next post, then take a break for a bit.
Ever see the skydiving video where they stalled a CASA about 15 years ago?
