Afghanistan, more than a decade later.

[Blanca BusaLess]

So can anyone really say that our mission there was/is a success?
What if anything is better for the average Afghani since we invaded?
What have we really accomplished there? Is the amount of American blood and sacrifice worth it?
Ok, sure they say we got OBL. Was it worth it? Have we really prevented another 9/11 with our time there?

With the recent massacre of civilians by what seems to be a regular family man I think it's time to give that place the middle finger and say good riddance. It's what they are waiting for right?
Does anyone here think Afg will continue to be 'safe' or 'better' after we leave?
Here's a married man with two children who apparently snapped of the highest order and walked over a mile to get to the first village and then after killing 11 he walks another mile or so and kills 5 more and then after that calmly walks up to base entrance and places his weapon on the ground and surrenders.
What kind of thoughts go thru a mans mind when he kills women and children and then surrenders without a fight to his comrades? How much hate have we as a nation and his commanders placed into his mind to make him have no remorse for children? What kind of stress does that a man?

There are whether true or not many stories in news media other than ours circulating stating more than one soldier participated in this attack. No matter in the end if they are true once heard or read many will believe it. Now again continues the circle of violence where other innocent troops will be subjected to revenge. Enough is enough. What benefit do we gain from staying another day? What face will we lose by cutting and running. We already face an enemy who has zero respect for us and our morals. So will waiting till the told day of departing save or earn anymore respect? How many more sane family men's minds have we ruined?

F Afg, bring everyone home.

Rant over.

 

[Fastfrog007]

Should never have gone there to start with, not with peoples bleeding hearts. We were victorious in WW2 because we fought a nation, with a nation. Ball bearing factories filled with German non combatants? Bomb em, they help the the German army,,things like that. Not anymore, anyone not currently pointing a gun is considered innocent, that's an issue, and that why its been a quagmire. I don't wanna see innocent locals die, but I'd rather them die, than our troops. Just my possibly twisted .02.

It's just a huge mess now.

Smellphone via Forum Runner

 

[BusaBret]

He who laughs last laughs the hardest.
Reckon the "Soviets" are laughing at us? They accomplished nothing in 10 years and neither have we. At the end of their campaign they were teetering on the brink of economic collapse. Where are we???

We cannot continue the way we are but also cannot afford to pull out and be considered defeated either. What will that do to our stance with the extremists world wide?

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

So Frog I've spent the last thirty minutes googling 'atrocities committed by allies during WWII'.

I've found lots of things like this:
Page 3 of 4
Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in the Axis Countries

But I've yet to find an incident similar to this committed by an allied soldier in WWII.

Was their stress or experience the same if not worse?
Why is this different?

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

He who laughs last laughs the hardest.
Reckon the "Soviets" are laughing at us? They accomplished nothing in 10 years and neither have we. At the end of their campaign they were teetering on the brink of economic collapse. Where are we???

We cannot continue the way we are but also cannot afford to pull out and be considered defeated either. What will that do to our stance with the extremists world wide?

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

Are you saying that if we stay till the day we say we will we can call that a victory?
How much worse will it look to our enemies if we left tomorrow?
Do you think by leaving early we would lose anymore face or respect in our enemies eyes?

 

[BusaBret]

Are you saying that if we stay till the day we say we will we can call that a victory?
How much worse will it look to our enemies if we left tomorrow?
Do you think by leaving early we would lose anymore face or respect in our enemies eyes?

Nope. None. Nope.

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

So why are we still there? Just waiting to push more sane men over the edge?
Just waiting for more revenge killings?
What?

 

[BusaBret]

Was their stress or experience the same if not worse?
Why is this different?

Nope.

Cause they were winning and accomplishing a goal. Our current situation couldn't be anymore different.

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

 

[BusaBret]

So why are we still there? Just waiting to push more sane men over the edge?
Just waiting for more revenge killings?
What?

Saiid,

I agree with you on this. It serves no purpose to continue on. However someone or something will have to answer for a complete failure and who or what will that be? Surely not anyone in the political arena even though they are the reason for it. We will withdraw as soon as an acceptable scapegoat is found. What or whomever that may be.

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

 

[BusaWhipped]

So Frog I've spent the last thirty minutes googling 'atrocities committed by allies during WWII'.

I've found lots of things like this:
Page 3 of 4
Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in the Axis Countries

But I've yet to find an incident similar to this committed by an allied soldier in WWII.

Was their stress or experience the same if not worse?
Why is this different?

The media wasn't given direct access to everything the military was doing back then. The military was allowed to fight without everything being second guessed by arm chair commanders watching the action from their easy chairs.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

The media wasn't given direct access to everything the military was doing back then. The military was allowed to fight without everything being second guessed by arm chair commanders watching the action from their easy chairs.

Understood. But if you read anything in the link I provided you'd see tht even years later investigations were made and convictions handed down. I find it difficult to find anyone saying an American Gi went on a rampage and killed innocent civilians like has happened in Afg and Iraq.

Ok so we bombed German and Japanese cities. These killed much more than any one man could do but I still find it difficult to find a instance of a single man doing similar.

 

[Fastfrog007]

So Frog I've spent the last thirty minutes googling 'atrocities committed by allies during WWII'.

I've found lots of things like this:
Page 3 of 4
Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in the Axis Countries

But I've yet to find an incident similar to this committed by an allied soldier in WWII.

Was their stress or experience the same if not worse?
Why is this different?

My point was the level of commitment then vs. now. The greatest generation went 100% into something and did it. Now,,we toss a bit here, a lil bit there and it doesn't really get a whole.lot done. Nobody really saw the war being fought, the terrible things that are done to be victorious in war. Now, 30secs after it happens, its put out for the world to see, judge and rally against.
It's started in Veitnam, and has only gotten worse. Cameras are everywhere and nothing.is missed. I don't wanna see any innocent people hurt, but the definition of innocent might need to be rethought. Again, my views are a lil unique. I just don't want anymore of OUR soldiers to die or be hurt.

Smellphone via Forum Runner

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

So Frog do you think during WWII American Gis may have massacred civilians in same fashion and simply due to area involved and lack of press on scene it didn't get reported or found out?

Maybe possibly instead of it now being a civilian massacre it was just collateral damage?
When you say the defintion of innocent needs to be looked at what does that mean?
Unarmed civilians are just that no matter the time or war, and innocent right?

 

[GNBRETT]

the people there are so brain washed and indoctrinated that they do not want the US military there and never have. were shoveling chit against the tide over there. we could leave today or a 100 years from now and the Taliban will STILL be there. they LIVE there, we dont.....

America needs to stop fighting other countries civil wars. especially countries half way around the world.

 

[skydivr]

It comes down to this hard truth: I'd rather be killing the enemy in his back yard instead of mine....

 

[zukracer]

I have said this time and time again when these types of things come up. I'll say it again here for anyone that has missed it

If we had to fight WWII the way we have to fight battles these days we would have lost and we would be speaking German or Japanese (more likely). Period.

Are there things that happen in war that are horrible, most certainly. Are there things that are done in the name of war that would never be allowed any other way? definitely. Are innocents lost? yup, daily, hourly or faster. That being said, screw em. If the Taliban was capable of flying bombers here do you think for one second they wouldnt drop millions of pounds of bombs on anything they could? They behead our warriors AND innocents that they kidnap. They are protected by people either because of fear or loyalty but either way in some ways we are just pissin up the rope in our attempts to squash them....and why? Because we are too sensitive to fight a war the way a war should be. We have to be seen not as the aggressor/ dominator but as an allie to the ones we are fighting for, which means we cant kill them or somehow offend them. We will never "win" a war, be it against terror or traditional us vs them national combat when we continue to show up at a gun fight and don't even draw our knives much less our guns (metaphorically speaking). Take the media out of it, let the military fight the battles and not the politicians and stop funding the very people we are fighting with our own guns/money/tactics and maybe just maybe we won't have 10yr engagements that solve nothing, cost valuable lives and ruin our economy. Please do not confuse this with defending the latest round of stupidity from Afgan. I'm not advocating killing innocents ever, any good soldier would avoid that at all costs. We just need to either let our military do what they are trained to do and keep the political crap out of it OR we need to stop engaging in things that we'll never win.

over

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Zuk and to others, how or what would you do differently in Afg or Iraq?
We are not facing a uniformed enemy. This is where the problem is.
There are no battlefields. No clear drawn front lines.

Let the military do what?

 

[GNBRETT]

It comes down to this hard truth: I'd rather be killing the enemy in his back yard instead of mine....

sounds good in theory but the reality is those that will take part in any furture terroist attacks here will have been a member of our own society for years and speak perfect english and probably educated from a western college as well.

to think sending our troops over there to engage local Taliban soldiers in warfare is going to some how make our country a safer place is rediculous.

 

[skydivr]

Blanca, the ROE's are very very limited, due to fear of collateral damage (rightfully so, when you cowardly hide/sleep behind women/children). There are a LOT of things we could be doing, but not politically acceptable to the media-driven non-fighting public.

Everybody in WWII knew we were "in it to win it" or "lose it"; there was no draw. Because the Taliban can never take over the US by military force, the US public fights with kid gloves. War IS Hell. Better to fight it and get over with than languish with a 'police action' like Vietnam - which, by the way, we won EVERY major engagement, but still lost - mostly because the Viets didn't want to win - kinda like now.

 

[skydivr]

sounds good in theory but the reality is those that will take part in any furture terroist attacks here will have been a member of our own society for years and speak perfect english and probably educated from a western college as well.

to think sending our troops over there to engage local Taliban soldiers in warfare is going to some how make our country a safer place is rediculous.

How can you say 'ridiculous' when there have been no major attacks on the US proper since 9/11? Would you care to guess what might have happened otherwise? We have kept them busy in their own country, which keeps them out of ours. May not last forever, but it's been an effective strategy so far.