1298cc vs. 1199cc...more hp?

OB_busagringo

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I've only been a rider for 5 years and I realize my lack of knowledge in the world of engine mechanics. To me, a stock Hayabusa's 1298cc engine, being a bigger bored engine, should produce more hp (crank or rear wheel,whichever) than a stock ZX12R's 1199cc powerhouse and yet, from what I have read so far, it is the other way around. Why is that?
 
i ain't exactly an expert too but it could be becoz of the difference in weight btw the Busa and the zx-12 ... lots of titanium parts on the zx-12 but none on the Busa. Stock ZX-12 has a 4-2-1 exhaust system which is about 20 pounds lighter than the Busa's 4-2 exhaust system. Logic is ... if i had u carrying a bag full of bricks and run 100m u'd be slower than if i had u carry a bag full of cottonwool and run 100m...
anyway don't worry, The Busa has been proven so far to be faster than the ZX-12
 
According to measured wet weights it looks like the Busa weighs less than the 12. This is with a heavier exhaust and bigger fuel tank too. Simply put: Kawasaki jacked up the motor of the 12 to compete with the lightly tuned 13. Apparently they jacked up the motors on the 12's used by some magazines a little too much and they went BANG!
 
Johnnycheese knows his stuff in this area. The short answer is that the Kaw motor is in a higher state of tune, from the factory. The Busa is more mildly tuned, which means a couple of things;

First, the Busa motor should have more potential to respond well to aftermarket performance mods than the Kaw motor. The Kaw motor is already pretty built for its size.

Second, think about price. The Kaw has a msrp that is $1,300 more than the Busa. They most likely spent a lot of that money tweaking the smaller engine. Those fancy parts from Yoshimura, Muzzi, etc. you want to buy for your Busa? You already paid for them, if you buy a ZX-12.
 
Mr Bear I am impressed with what you said.
yes the Kaw is maxed out and the Busa has room to spare.
example: FRZ600 was a maxed out FZR400
 
Look at the area under the power curves and that tells you all you need to know, the Busa murders the 12 through the midrange, the 12 pips it top end power, I know what I'd rather start out with if I were tuning a motor.


I can't see why ZX12 engines are going bang, they aren't particularly tuned (BHP per litre wise) looks like Kawasaki have cocked up big time somewhere.
 
Did anyone notice this while reading the above referenced motorcycle.com article? :


"I have talked with two different shops in the USA that have made dyno runs on the ZX-12 and both confirmed that the bike only made 152 and 155 rear wheel H.P."

[I think this puts the nonsense (excuse) about limiters to rest]

Adding a pipe on the 12 also removes the cats which is sure to help. Looks like they picked up 11 ps. Wonder what that is in SAE hp?


[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 30 March 2000).]
 
Busagringo, this can get pretty deep, but there is a valid and simple way to look at it.
An engine is basically an air pump. Obviously there must be a fuel system to mix fuel with the air, but it is the amount of air moving through an engine that has the greatest effect on power.

You can get the same desired amount of air moved by having a large displacement engine running at low revs, or a smaller engine running faster. Theoretically, you could get the same air movement and the same power from a 400cc engine running at 15000rpm as a 1200cc engine running at 5000rpm.

In the real world it aint that easy. Losses to friction go up sharply with increased rpm, and it gets more difficult to get the air in and out of the engine and supply spark and fuel precisely as rpm increases.

An air and fuel system designed to operate efficiently at the 15000rpm of the 400cc engine would be far less efficient at the 5000rpm peak of the 1200cc engine. the smaller engine would feel "peaky" and would feel gutless at lower speeds despite making the same maximum power. The 1200cc engine would have good power right off idle and throughout the range but would start to falter beyond its 5000rpm peak.

Those examples are extreme cases, but they illustrate the differences in powerbands.

Kawasaki has decided to get more power from the ZX12 by designing the engine to operate at higher rpm. Suzuki on the other hand designed the Busa with a lower, broader powerband.The end result is that the zx12 may make more peak power than a stock Busa simply by running at higher rpm. That increased power will come at the expense of low end and mid-range power, though, where the Busa will rule. High rpm from a smaller engine with less weight generally works best on the track, while a larger, heavier, slower turning engine often makes a better, easier to ride street engine. There's no free lunch.
 
The efficiency of the cyl head has a lot to do with it also. If you spin a motor to 15,000 rpm but the head doesn't flow good or the cams are too small than you don't take advantage of the additional air/fuel charge that the higher rpm can bring. Oh, and Dangermouse, when you mentioned the superior low rpm power of the busa that is cc's talking, not to mention a high velocity cyl head. The Busa is a great platform to make big BIG power!!!

[This message has been edited by GSXRTURBO1 (edited 30 March 2000).]
 
Terence, I had to chuckle when I read your post. Do you usually stay on top of all the facts like that?
 
Jesus,

The short answer is that more displacement is not necessarily more HP. Cams, intake/exhaust valve size, compression ratio all play a big part in making HP.

Don't know cam size or valve specs, but the 12 has 12.2:1 CR while the busa has 11 or so.
This is one reason it makes more HP.

If the engines were built with the same components but one was bored out more by 100cc's then the bigger engine would make more HP.
 
When grasshopper ZX12 comes to take the pebble from the hand of Master Busa's, the 2001 GSXR1?00 WILL kick sand in its face as well.

2001 GSXR1?00 REPORTEDLY TURNS BUSA 1/4 MILE TIMES - PRIEST KANE......
 
Heck, if the R1 is doing 10.4's, why not?

The GSXR-1000/1100 is going to be a Bad Mutha. But back to Gixxerfreak's point...if you have an engine with 11:1 compression, and another engine of equal displacement with 12.2:1 compression making more power, the more powerful engine will also have more heat and stress on it. The pistons, rods, and everything else have to be able to deal with the added heat and stress. That's not a problem, they just have to be made of stronger, lighter, more heat-tolerant alloys. That means the motor costs more.

ZX-12 = 1200cc, Busa = 1300cc

Equal horsepower

ZX-12 = $11,999, Busa = $10,799

Sounds about right to me.
 
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