talk to me all you gun folks
- Thread starter ditchdr
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In all my weapons I carry extreme shock ammo.. check it out.. Extreme Shock - The World's Most Advanced Ammunition Glock 10mm
Come on now, lets not perpetuate myths...
The ability to stay on target delivering effective follow on shots, it's low recoil, and low expense goes a long ways in favor of a 9mm... Haven't heard a guy shot with a 9mm complain yet. Besides, with ammo prices the way they are hopefully folks will shoot more 9mm (or be able to shoot more for their $$$) and be better prepared..40 isn't a miracle caliber, nor is the .45 though by god there are a lot of old farts running round that have some fantasies to share about the .45.
All that being said, I do like .45 quite a bit and I've been thinking about a new Springfield XD. They are proving to be reliable, accurate, affordable and they fit my hand much better than the overly fat Glock 45 or the old standby 1911.
Anyone in any magazine, forum, or at a gunshop that goes on and on about how a 9mm isn't any good for self defense/carry is by and large just running amok with parroted dogma, their own little agenda, pet favorites, and are likely suffering from the chronic and RAMPANT Cranial Rectal Inversion so common among shooting "enthusiasts". Mall Ninja's, Range Commando's, and Gun Counter Special Ops, are all too common and almost all as useless as Guns & Ammo when it comes to what works every day, for real world concealed carry, in real world situations.
There is no Magic Bullet, no perfect round for everyone, and EVERY HANDGUN on the planet is barely useful for home protection/self defense...
WHA? What the hell? Yeah I said it, a proper short barreled semi or pump action .12 gauge is far superior in home defense and if you really have to protect life and property that's why they invented the AR15, the M1A1, the HK91, etc... Real protection, from just about ANYTHING that might come near you, your property, your loved ones etc...
BUT, it's hard to carry any of the above concealed every day, so, we rely on compromise, and all handguns are a compromise. Sure some more than others but the only thing that matters is the person pulling the trigger and their ability and desire to hit what they are shooting at.
You figure the panicky home owner with years of stories in the Magazines about "there I was" and be "roll out ready" is far more likely to hit drywall and windows than they are to ever actually hit an intruder. Most have never fired a gun, let alone in anger, or under stress so the notion that there is "A" superior handgun caliber is kinda silly...
The absolute best handgun and caliber is the one you have with you when you need it. It's icing on the cake if you're actually prepared to use deadly force, and are actually proficient with your weapon, otherwise you may as well
lease: for all the good a concealable handgun is going to do you in a serious crisis. Hell a sharp stick might do better... 
In all my weapons I carry extreme shock ammo.. check it out.. Extreme Shock - The World's Most Advanced Ammunition Glock 10mm
Hope you're kidding...
If not, god help you should you ever actually have to use your weapon in self defense. Even in Castle Law States, ammo like what described is simply rolling out the red carpet for law suit. Nothing makes you look more like a Wannabee "enforcer" or "vigilante gun-nut" like specialty ammo, made for "extreme EFFECTS" blah blah blah...
Much better to figure out what your own local law enforcement, State troopers, etc are using and use that. Much easier to defend yourself. FWIW...
NCBusa2001
Registered
Hope you're kidding...
If not, god help you should you ever actually have to use your weapon in self defense. Even in Castle Law States, ammo like what described is simply rolling out the red carpet for law suit. Nothing makes you look more like a Wannabee "enforcer" or "vigilante gun-nut" like specialty ammo, made for "extreme EFFECTS" blah blah blah...
Much better to figure out what your own local law enforcement, State troopers, etc are using and use that. Much easier to defend yourself. FWIW...
Rev, That's just what I was thinking. Same reason you don't use handloads in your carry piece. I don't think you can go wrong with hydroshocks or gold dots, as they have been used by LEO's for years.
Chris
As the others have said Kimber is fine though you are mostly paying for a name, not that they aren't good pistols, but in the end it's still a 1911, low capacity, and extra pricey. There are other 1911s on the market that will get you just as good of performance for less $$$. Though like I said Kimber is good stuff, they just aren't gods gift to shooting though their ads will tell you otherwise.
How big are you? Are you fat? Or are you wedge shaped? If you got a good thin waist and are over about 5'9" you can carry damn near anything without it printing or being visible. If you are built like most Americans though, a full sized .45 of any manufacturer is going to be a trick to conceal comfortably and effectively. Especially comfortably, carry a full size Auto with you for a few days and see how your back, ribs, neck, and shoulders feel about it.
Best bet would be to find a good local gunshop, (Knowing that they are going to try and SELL you whatever they can) but find a good shop with a good range that rents some guns. Shoot what you are thinking about buying, it's the only way to know if it's going to work for you. I always thought a 1911 would be my perfect sidearm, turns out I hate damn near everything about them, from their low capacity, ergonomics from a prior century to their archaic single actions... I was stunned, luckily I got to shoot before I bought, would have been really irritated had I taken a brand new Kimber home only to learn that I do not 1911s. The Glock 23 was too fat in my hand and clunky, the HK USP .40 was the same, so yeah, good to be able to try a bunch first, what works for one may not work for another.
As for everyday carry? The best is the one you will actually carry everyday. I'm looking at a SIG P-230, or maybe the new Ruger LCP. I haven't shot the Ruger yet but the P230 is a superb shooter, accurate, easy to conceal, and stone reliable. This is what I think will be a great everyday carry weapon... If you think you need more, then perhaps you should consider a move to a better area?
Kidding kidding, seriously though, find what feels best to you and buy it. Don't worry so much about caliber, or fancy macho names that will impress your friends. You'll be much better off finding one that works perfect for you...OH and FWIW, there is nothing wrong with either the Glock or a Kimber, not one thing, both would be reliable and long lasting, but for everyday carry I'd pick a glock every time. It's already ugly so carry wear and tear won't make you sad, it's inexpensive so if you do have to use it it's not going to sting so much when the police take it away for 6-months to a few years, and there are a ton of variants out there in just about any caliber or configuration you would want so finding the perfect Glock should be a cinch.
Though I'd look into the new Springfield XD line first, they are a newer generation of European ugly black pistols and they are incorporating some lessons learned by Glock.
There are lots of good points and info on this thread. In the end, it comes down to what do YOU have the most confidence with from an accuracy and reliablility standpoint. I had a Glock and it malfunctioned during my CHL test (bad magazine) but it ruined my on the Glock because I lost confidence in the gun. I have a Sig P239/40 and a Springfield 1911 but at the end of the day I always go back to my revolvers. I know that when I pull the trigger the gun will discharge and if for some reason it doesn't, I pull the trigger again and it will.
As the others have said Kimber is fine though you are mostly paying for a name, not that they aren't good pistols, but in the end it's still a 1911, low capacity, and extra pricey. There are other 1911s on the market that will get you just as good of performance for less $$$. Though like I said Kimber is good stuff, they just aren't gods gift to shooting though their ads will tell you otherwise.
How big are you? Are you fat? Or are you wedge shaped? If you got a good thin waist and are over about 5'9" you can carry damn near anything without it printing or being visible. If you are built like most Americans though, a full sized .45 of any manufacturer is going to be a trick to conceal comfortably and effectively. Especially comfortably, carry a full size Auto with you for a few days and see how your back, ribs, neck, and shoulders feel about it.
Best bet would be to find a good local gunshop, (Knowing that they are going to try and SELL you whatever they can) but find a good shop with a good range that rents some guns. Shoot what you are thinking about buying, it's the only way to know if it's going to work for you. I always thought a 1911 would be my perfect sidearm, turns out I hate damn near everything about them, from their low capacity, ergonomics from a prior century to their archaic single actions... I was stunned, luckily I got to shoot before I bought, would have been really irritated had I taken a brand new Kimber home only to learn that I do not 1911s. The Glock 23 was too fat in my hand and clunky, the HK USP .40 was the same, so yeah, good to be able to try a bunch first, what works for one may not work for another.
As for everyday carry? The best is the one you will actually carry everyday. I'm looking at a SIG P-230, or maybe the new Ruger LCP. I haven't shot the Ruger yet but the P230 is a superb shooter, accurate, easy to conceal, and stone reliable. This is what I think will be a great everyday carry weapon... If you think you need more, then perhaps you should consider a move to a better area?
OH and FWIW, there is nothing wrong with either the Glock or a Kimber, not one thing, both would be reliable and long lasting, but for everyday carry I'd pick a glock every time. It's already ugly so carry wear and tear won't make you sad, it's inexpensive so if you do have to use it it's not going to sting so much when the police take it away for 6-months to a few years, and there are a ton of variants out there in just about any caliber or configuration you would want so finding the perfect Glock should be a cinch.
Though I'd look into the new Springfield XD line first, they are a newer generation of European ugly black pistols and they are incorporating some lessons learned by Glock.
Pipe carries the LCP.
Nice gun Rev.
Have only jammed once and that was when the wifey was shooting it, but she used a limp wrist.
Like you said a .380 isn't a .40 or .45; but if used effectively; then other side of barrel won't be complaining.
Small, lightweight and easy to conceal.
All I am going to say is GO with the imber 100X better gun
Prof/Rev
Well said....
Now Pipe is on track for the perfect carry conceal! I would also recommend the Ruger LCP or Kal-tec .380 VERY EASY to conceal and packs enough punch to keep the bad guys at bay. Less then $300 too IF you can locate one! HIGH demand gun for the CC crowd. I love mine..
Well said....
Now Pipe is on track for the perfect carry conceal! I would also recommend the Ruger LCP or Kal-tec .380 VERY EASY to conceal and packs enough punch to keep the bad guys at bay. Less then $300 too IF you can locate one! HIGH demand gun for the CC crowd. I love mine..
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The_CaneCorso
Registered
If you like guns do not vote for obama
Its been said before-
"Kimbers you show your friends, Glocks you show your enemies"
I have a G23 .40 caliber which is the "compact" or midsize of the three. I have a medium size hand and my pinky doesn't hang off. It is a great conceal gun and a standard hollow point round will leave a wound channel typically 10-12" deep in test gelatin and about 2" wide after entry. Muzzle energy in a SD round I just looked up is 497 ft/lbs, only about 50 less than a .357 magnum, and beats a .45 at 386. It holds 13 rounds in the mag. It is also the single most carried caliber and brand of gun for law enforcement in the US including Federal such as F.B.I.
Any questions? ???
They are also almost indestructible. In a book about Glocks, they devised torture tests with the intent of testing it to the point of failure-it never failed. They drowned it, froze it, soaked it in motor oil, removed all lubricants, put it through a cement mixer full of sand and gravel, dragged it behind a truck on a chain, and even shot it with a .22 rifle. Oh, and fired 100 rounds through it after each test...
I just bought mine in May, and am now a major fan-it's so much fun to shoot, I started reloading my own to save money and have put about 2000 rounds through it. The .40 is NOT hard to shoot, it has a "snappy" recoil vs. a big jumping recoil like my .357 S&W, so with practice you get the muscle memory to feel it return to the point of aim after firing such as for a double-tap. I can put a double-tap in a plate sized target at self-defense range (20-25 feet) all day long. I don't care if it's wearing body armor, it's going down if you do that with this caliber. If they still want to get up you'll be able to take your time to make a head shot at that point.
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Oh, and this is what 1000 rounds of ammo look like waiting to be loaded-
"Kimbers you show your friends, Glocks you show your enemies"
I have a G23 .40 caliber which is the "compact" or midsize of the three. I have a medium size hand and my pinky doesn't hang off. It is a great conceal gun and a standard hollow point round will leave a wound channel typically 10-12" deep in test gelatin and about 2" wide after entry. Muzzle energy in a SD round I just looked up is 497 ft/lbs, only about 50 less than a .357 magnum, and beats a .45 at 386. It holds 13 rounds in the mag. It is also the single most carried caliber and brand of gun for law enforcement in the US including Federal such as F.B.I.
Any questions? ???
They are also almost indestructible. In a book about Glocks, they devised torture tests with the intent of testing it to the point of failure-it never failed. They drowned it, froze it, soaked it in motor oil, removed all lubricants, put it through a cement mixer full of sand and gravel, dragged it behind a truck on a chain, and even shot it with a .22 rifle. Oh, and fired 100 rounds through it after each test...
I just bought mine in May, and am now a major fan-it's so much fun to shoot, I started reloading my own to save money and have put about 2000 rounds through it. The .40 is NOT hard to shoot, it has a "snappy" recoil vs. a big jumping recoil like my .357 S&W, so with practice you get the muscle memory to feel it return to the point of aim after firing such as for a double-tap. I can put a double-tap in a plate sized target at self-defense range (20-25 feet) all day long. I don't care if it's wearing body armor, it's going down if you do that with this caliber. If they still want to get up you'll be able to take your time to make a head shot at that point.
Oh, and this is what 1000 rounds of ammo look like waiting to be loaded-
That's why every gun show, I pick up some winchester ranger SXTs (Law enforcement only - new black talons)
Kimber makes some nice pistols, but I prefer a Glock
Y'know BA, you're O.K. for a Cali guy...
j/k, actually I have two siblings who live there, but my sister-in-law?? Forget it, fruit and nuts ALL the way...
Just a complete 60's poster child...
You can't beat the Glock model 27. However with that said; for concealment you might look at a 380. While the 27 is small it's still wide and not as easily concealed as the 380's.
Like another said Glocks are point and kill. Awesome weapons.
Like another said Glocks are point and kill. Awesome weapons.
i usta do a 'lil IPSC Tactical competition shooting a few years back...in several classes...and went through many pistols/calibers...
i started out in mens unlimited open class on the cheap with a Glock 24C ported longslide w/ a Tasco PDP4 (Beer Can) Red-Dot sight...then decided that all that wasn't really practical at all and began competing in the limited (iron sights only/no compensator/porting) class...you know...real world don't hafta worry about a dead battery or "turn-on your eletronic sight before you draw" kinda sidearm...and for that i used a straight glock 24 longslide...without a hitch..for a couple years..and took many trophies with it...and then?..i got what i thought was serious and built up a Para Ordnance P-14...long and short of it?...i've shot all caliber/size/model glocks and customized 1911's in 9mm, .38Super, 40S&W, .45 and even .357Sig (which btw had rediculouse muzzle flip for fast defensive tactical work) and after alls said and done?...i love a glock M19 9mm...nowhere's near as high maint., finicky and apt to go out of tune as a 1911 format...maybe not quite as accurate as a super tuned 1911 but the glocks are like the 4 wheel drive of pistols...they rarely if ever fail and they don't break...and this is coming from a guy who usta practice & compete to the tune of about 1,000 - 1,500 rounds per week....and against about 50 other shooters on the average weekend match...for more than several years...i quit IPSC competitons...i had peaked my skills and hardware...but?...
of the above?...I kept the glock G19...as a matter of fact?...just a few months back i freshened up her 10 year old tritium night sights with a new set of TRU-GLOWS TFO (combo tritium/fiber-optic) Technology night sights (which are awesome btw)...and just to mull over some facts?...
Fact 1: The vernerable .38special has terminated enough bodies over the years to cover the face of the moon about 10 times...while some of your upper end 9mm loadings can put out close to twice the energy as a .38special...and neither is underpowered but all to often times they are undermanned.
Fact 2: Due to it's "Tapper Wall Brass"?...the 9mm is a more reliable round when it comes to feeding and extraction as compared to the "Straight Wall Brass" of both the 40S&W and the .45acp...which often times require that a pistols chambered be throated, polished and ramp tuned before utter reliability is attained.
needless to say...i'm a 9mm fan...it's just got too much going for it...
more reliable...
faster handling...
less expensive...(which equals more practice)....and?..
it's my firm belief that if we ever do encounter a SHTF day?...i think there'll be a whole lot more 9mm laying around than .40S&W and even .45acp.
BTW...my TFO nightsight equipped G19 is about the size of a sig P230...but totes 15 rds of 9mm...
Hope that helps and?...L8R, Bill
i started out in mens unlimited open class on the cheap with a Glock 24C ported longslide w/ a Tasco PDP4 (Beer Can) Red-Dot sight...then decided that all that wasn't really practical at all and began competing in the limited (iron sights only/no compensator/porting) class...you know...real world don't hafta worry about a dead battery or "turn-on your eletronic sight before you draw" kinda sidearm...and for that i used a straight glock 24 longslide...without a hitch..for a couple years..and took many trophies with it...and then?..i got what i thought was serious and built up a Para Ordnance P-14...long and short of it?...i've shot all caliber/size/model glocks and customized 1911's in 9mm, .38Super, 40S&W, .45 and even .357Sig (which btw had rediculouse muzzle flip for fast defensive tactical work) and after alls said and done?...i love a glock M19 9mm...nowhere's near as high maint., finicky and apt to go out of tune as a 1911 format...maybe not quite as accurate as a super tuned 1911 but the glocks are like the 4 wheel drive of pistols...they rarely if ever fail and they don't break...and this is coming from a guy who usta practice & compete to the tune of about 1,000 - 1,500 rounds per week....and against about 50 other shooters on the average weekend match...for more than several years...i quit IPSC competitons...i had peaked my skills and hardware...but?...
of the above?...I kept the glock G19...as a matter of fact?...just a few months back i freshened up her 10 year old tritium night sights with a new set of TRU-GLOWS TFO (combo tritium/fiber-optic) Technology night sights (which are awesome btw)...and just to mull over some facts?...
Fact 1: The vernerable .38special has terminated enough bodies over the years to cover the face of the moon about 10 times...while some of your upper end 9mm loadings can put out close to twice the energy as a .38special...and neither is underpowered but all to often times they are undermanned.
Fact 2: Due to it's "Tapper Wall Brass"?...the 9mm is a more reliable round when it comes to feeding and extraction as compared to the "Straight Wall Brass" of both the 40S&W and the .45acp...which often times require that a pistols chambered be throated, polished and ramp tuned before utter reliability is attained.
needless to say...i'm a 9mm fan...it's just got too much going for it...
more reliable...
faster handling...
less expensive...(which equals more practice)....and?..
it's my firm belief that if we ever do encounter a SHTF day?...i think there'll be a whole lot more 9mm laying around than .40S&W and even .45acp.
BTW...my TFO nightsight equipped G19 is about the size of a sig P230...but totes 15 rds of 9mm...
Hope that helps and?...L8R, Bill
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Depends on what you want it for. Concealed Carry? Home Defense? For the house, you can't beat a shotgun (I prefer pump). I have a 7 year old in my house. She isn't strong enough *YET* to charge either a shotgun or an automatic; that's why there's no loaded revolvers in the house. Also, a shotgun blast isn't likely to punch thru 3 walls and inintentionally kill someone in the other bedroom sleeping. Also a better chance of a hit with a shotgun. The sound of someone charging a pump shotgun will cause most criminals to make a hasty exit.
For a carry pistol, can't beat the glock. It is almost impossible to jam; it will shoot straight and will shoot crap ammo. It's easy to dissasemble and clean. I like the small 9 (model 23?) as it's pretty concealable.
I have 2 Kimber 45's (INVESTMENT GUNS) plus several others. There are only about 3 things that don't lose value: Property (i'm talking about land, not homes); Airplanes and Guns.
Go with the Glock. Nothing fancy, sturdy, proven.
For a carry pistol, can't beat the glock. It is almost impossible to jam; it will shoot straight and will shoot crap ammo. It's easy to dissasemble and clean. I like the small 9 (model 23?) as it's pretty concealable.
I have 2 Kimber 45's (INVESTMENT GUNS) plus several others. There are only about 3 things that don't lose value: Property (i'm talking about land, not homes); Airplanes and Guns.
Go with the Glock. Nothing fancy, sturdy, proven.
I like medium frame auto loaders..
Kimber ultra , 1911 officer, Kahr all great for larger guys (to big for little people to conceal easily) Just got a spot for .45cal is all, the .380/9mm stuff carries more rounds but I figure I only get 1 or 2 shots..
Kimber ultra , 1911 officer, Kahr all great for larger guys (to big for little people to conceal easily) Just got a spot for .45cal is all, the .380/9mm stuff carries more rounds but I figure I only get 1 or 2 shots..
Between a Kimber or a Glock? As it has been said, two completely different weapons and it depends what you are going to do with it. If you want something pretty to look at and don't plan to carry it and only going to shoot targets get yourself the kimber. Great accurate pistols and require lots of maint.
If you want something for self defense. Get a Glock and only a Glock. Not only are they very forgiving on maint, you can't hurt them, most models will hold twice the ammo of a kimber or other 1911 and you can buy them for half the price. and they are as simple as you can get. Point and shoot. I carried a Glock 21 when I was still a member of our tactical team. Shot close to 15,000 rounds through it and only had two malfunctions and I know what caused both and neither was the fault of the gun. One was gunk in the firing pin channel which caused a light strike on a hard primer, failed to fire, the other was me, limp wristed in a CQB situation and caused a stovepipe. If you fail to wipe a Glock down after carrying it, it won't rust and if you drop it it won't discharge. The tinifer finish is nearly scratchproof, and I can replace every part in any glock that is succeptable to wear for under $20 and do it in 5-10 minutes.
A 1911 is going to also require extensive training in order to program that mass of gray matter between your ears to perform as it should in a life and death situation. I have seen so many on the range forget to take the safety off. And this is on the range, a life and death situation with an adrenaline dump and those not trained will never get the safety off. Glock, you don't have to worry about it.
As for caliber, I would recommend 40 S&W or 45 ACP. 9mm is fine depending upon which ammo you carry.
As for ammo, get a good quality bonded bullet and one that is loaded for standard velocity. Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger SXT. Subsonic is worthless in my opinion unless you are shooting squirels with a 22 in a residential neighborhood and don't want the neighbors to hear
If you want something for self defense. Get a Glock and only a Glock. Not only are they very forgiving on maint, you can't hurt them, most models will hold twice the ammo of a kimber or other 1911 and you can buy them for half the price. and they are as simple as you can get. Point and shoot. I carried a Glock 21 when I was still a member of our tactical team. Shot close to 15,000 rounds through it and only had two malfunctions and I know what caused both and neither was the fault of the gun. One was gunk in the firing pin channel which caused a light strike on a hard primer, failed to fire, the other was me, limp wristed in a CQB situation and caused a stovepipe. If you fail to wipe a Glock down after carrying it, it won't rust and if you drop it it won't discharge. The tinifer finish is nearly scratchproof, and I can replace every part in any glock that is succeptable to wear for under $20 and do it in 5-10 minutes.
A 1911 is going to also require extensive training in order to program that mass of gray matter between your ears to perform as it should in a life and death situation. I have seen so many on the range forget to take the safety off. And this is on the range, a life and death situation with an adrenaline dump and those not trained will never get the safety off. Glock, you don't have to worry about it.
As for caliber, I would recommend 40 S&W or 45 ACP. 9mm is fine depending upon which ammo you carry.
As for ammo, get a good quality bonded bullet and one that is loaded for standard velocity. Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger SXT. Subsonic is worthless in my opinion unless you are shooting squirels with a 22 in a residential neighborhood and don't want the neighbors to hear
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Prof/Rev
Well said....
Now Pipe is on track for the perfect carry conceal! I would also recommend the Ruger LCP or Kal-tec .380 VERY EASY to conceal and packs enough punch to keep the bad guys at bay. Less then $300 too IF you can locate one! HIGH demand gun for the CC crowd. I love mine..
The Ruger LCP is a great small carry gun when you don't want to have to carry a big gun. I normally like more power out of a gun than what a 380 gives, but it's better than nothing. My LCP fits in my inside pocket of my riding jacket nicely and is usually what I carry when on the Busa. Also fits in a suit jacket nice or pants pocket with a pocket holster. Accuracy is good out to 25 yards, not a target pistol by far but it will get the job done.
I bought one of the first ones my dealer got. I went to the range with a co worker and a trooper that works closely with us to test fire. Both guys shot mine that first day and they both owned one within the week.
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