Tre
- Thread starter clintr79
- Start date
EtrnlSoldier
Registered
Of course you're laughing. We should all buy your GPS mod for twice the money instead of a tre to uncork the top end. And, instead of just lifting our gas tanks to plug or unplug a tre, we should have to remove our body work and disassemble our clutch baskets to install your mod that does pretty much the same thing as a tre, right? And, we should listen to you call us fools or newbies for asking questions, RIGHT? I've listened to you insult people for years now JC, on 3 different motorcycle web forums. I've yet to see your wisdom. I've seen your arrogance on countless occasions. You ARE trying to actually sell your products, right? If not, then why belabor the tre thing?
CrashBomb
Registered
argh...*bang head on keyboard*...*scream*...*choke*...*cough*...*gurgle*
Why do we have to go through this every week?
One of the photoshop wizards needs to create a picture of Yosemite Sam with his sixguns that says, "Thu next dang newbie what asks about a TRE gets his haid blasted off."
clintr79 - You're just going to have to buy one and find out for yourself. That's the only reasonable way to learn because as you can see you're always going to get differing opinions, this has been going on for a long time and won't stop anytime soon. If you're going to get one you might as well take the advice of some people above and get the GIPro so you get a nifty gear indicator and a tre that's switchable so you can do back to back tests for yourself.
Where are you at in Pennsylvania? Not very many of us PA brothers on here but we do have a few. Congratulations on the new bike, did you post pics?
Why do we have to go through this every week?
One of the photoshop wizards needs to create a picture of Yosemite Sam with his sixguns that says, "Thu next dang newbie what asks about a TRE gets his haid blasted off."
clintr79 - You're just going to have to buy one and find out for yourself. That's the only reasonable way to learn because as you can see you're always going to get differing opinions, this has been going on for a long time and won't stop anytime soon. If you're going to get one you might as well take the advice of some people above and get the GIPro so you get a nifty gear indicator and a tre that's switchable so you can do back to back tests for yourself.
Where are you at in Pennsylvania? Not very many of us PA brothers on here but we do have a few. Congratulations on the new bike, did you post pics?
Johnnycheese
Registered
due to your laziness. and unwilling to do a search. the reason any tre is bad is for the fact that you have a 5th gear fuel map in all gears so........ if you do not have a custom map you are too fat in the 1-4 gears, if you do have a custom map then you have to map for 5th gear (which is richer) because your bike will never add the fuel that is needed. thus you will have a custom map that is always fat untill 5th, and if it was custom mapped in 4th and below you will not enough fuel for 5th and 6th.
this is the cliff note version do a search and you will find the whole write up.
I guess if you have a major cut a bandaid is easy, but doing it with stiches works a heck of alot better.
JC, I was lazy and asked for the rich/lean mileage question in another post. This thread just happened to answer not only the fuel question, but it also explains another thing. Some say the timing is locked and doesn't move. Are they right, or does the common sense of a mechanical advancer (at the end of an early 1980's era crankshaft) eliminate any notion that the advance stays locked upon throttle roll off, let's say.
JC, now I read your, "fat in 4 gears" and 5th is richer even still? What happened to the sensor input... especially the TPS constantly moving. Think the bike needs each gear voltage with the tre triggering a code? Then JC, you say there is not enough fuel for 5th and 6th? It sure had the correct fuel for 5th and 6th running without a tre. What makes you think there is a fuel delivery problem in tre mode, excuse me... in backup mode?
The rich condition answers my question about the tre. The injectors are feeding more fuel to compensate for the leaner sensor setting. The smoothing out effect Busa Bill found, is found in every bike. Bill just has a better seat of the pants feel than most.
Getting back to this clutch fix for hundreds of dollars? Couldn't you find the one wire you need from this clutch area fix? Either you are knowingly feeding a con story, or don't have a clue you can short the wire leading up into the ECU and collect that same code this clutch fix does. Get it? Like the tre does. So, which is it? Con or Clueless?
Remember, this is a computer bike with lots of hidden codes you don't need to spend a dime on. To harvest one or two codes like the tre and clutch fix, will always be had with a sensor out of the ECU loop (disconnected or shorted to ground).
JC, now I read your, "fat in 4 gears" and 5th is richer even still? What happened to the sensor input... especially the TPS constantly moving. Think the bike needs each gear voltage with the tre triggering a code? Then JC, you say there is not enough fuel for 5th and 6th? It sure had the correct fuel for 5th and 6th running without a tre. What makes you think there is a fuel delivery problem in tre mode, excuse me... in backup mode?
The rich condition answers my question about the tre. The injectors are feeding more fuel to compensate for the leaner sensor setting. The smoothing out effect Busa Bill found, is found in every bike. Bill just has a better seat of the pants feel than most.
Getting back to this clutch fix for hundreds of dollars? Couldn't you find the one wire you need from this clutch area fix? Either you are knowingly feeding a con story, or don't have a clue you can short the wire leading up into the ECU and collect that same code this clutch fix does. Get it? Like the tre does. So, which is it? Con or Clueless?
Remember, this is a computer bike with lots of hidden codes you don't need to spend a dime on. To harvest one or two codes like the tre and clutch fix, will always be had with a sensor out of the ECU loop (disconnected or shorted to ground).
2busa,
You are wrong about the TRE on the Busa making the ECU go into backup mode. As I have said before backup mode for the position senor on the busa puts the ECU in 6th gear position. A simple TRE places the correct voltage (by resistance) to send a 5th gear signal to the ECU at all times. An ATRE is a bit different. The Gear Position Sensor sends a 5th gear signal in both 5th and 6th gear.
The ZX 14 “may†be a different story. What I do know: One test I read on an Ivan ZX14 TRE (by Brock) locked the ZX14 in 6th as far as its ECU was concerned. At the same time it disabled the gear indicator, neutral light, shift light, and the launch light. It still required remapping the bike to make it run correctly after installation.
Professor
You are wrong about the TRE on the Busa making the ECU go into backup mode. As I have said before backup mode for the position senor on the busa puts the ECU in 6th gear position. A simple TRE places the correct voltage (by resistance) to send a 5th gear signal to the ECU at all times. An ATRE is a bit different. The Gear Position Sensor sends a 5th gear signal in both 5th and 6th gear.
The ZX 14 “may†be a different story. What I do know: One test I read on an Ivan ZX14 TRE (by Brock) locked the ZX14 in 6th as far as its ECU was concerned. At the same time it disabled the gear indicator, neutral light, shift light, and the launch light. It still required remapping the bike to make it run correctly after installation.
Professor
This is still, Unbelievable!
Professor, you pulled the information right out of the manual, did you not? Read where it says the bike will default to a 6 when the sensor is faulty. receives the wrong voltage, or is disconnected. Is there a troubleshooting tree to walk you thru the test? Why can't you see you cannot force a computer ECU to do what you think it does, when all it's doing is reading a voltage signal... be it from the sensor, or taken over by the ECU's backup mode when that sensor fails, or better yet... when you install a tre.
Just like the BUSA, the 14 runs in what's called an, "a-N method" backup for low speed A/F metering. Lose the TPS signal for high speed rpm and the ECU defaults to the, D-J method. Both computer bikes use the same system backup, only Suz calls it something else for obvious legal purposes.
I'll have to use these two (method) examples as the Busa's similar default 6 code handles the low speed rpm readings; (a-N method) is the backup fuel/ign delivery. TPS is still connected to the throttle body, so the Busa is not locked into the, (D-J type method). You cannot feel the transition from low speed digital back to sensor analog if you WOT the throttle. The metering is this precise.
Please, don't tell me I haven't done my homework delving into the ECU to understand it. I ran the bike without the GPS connected. Guess what the dash read? How did the ECU get to a locked 6 when I unplugged the the GPS from the harness. You install a tre, you receive the same locked 6. Now, the logic of this tests proves without a doubt, your theory Professor, is that the, "TRE places the correct voltage'... 'signal to the ECU..."? No Professor, It (the tre) sends an "out of range" signal that automatically alerts the ECU to load that faulty sensor (out of spec signal with the tre in between the sensor signal) in it's backup mode = 6 locked. Follow the logical progression... This is why you are confused with all the gear signals and what the ignition and fuel is doing. Bring the ATRE up and I'll show you another code (if not the same ECU backup defaulting to the "method" fuel/ign metering) harvested inside the ECU. It's that easy to understand.
I threw fuel at the 14 with one of those TFI(?) dealies. I could toggle the fuel on and off. Damn if the extra fuel didn't smooth out the ride, induce a flat spot, plus, I lost the sharp responsiveness of the, (low speed backup) a-N method setting. More fuel was the last thing the engine wanted in a 6 locker mode. That's what my 14 responded to.
Professor, I don't make the rules. I have to follow the troubleshooting logic. It either works one way, or no way. What the tre and any other non-fuel type units you plug in between the stock wire harness says it does, that aftermarket unit will trigger the default backup code(s) every single time.
This is easy, yet complex to understand. Unlike JC, which btw, I have nothing personal against the person; I just don't respond well to, "You don't need a tre, ha,ha,ha" ... as an answer. I'm trying to explain the complex in the abstract. Is using the word, "harvest" too abstract to understand what the ECU is doing? Every time you walk thru the points of fuel injection, the tre, the pcom, I'm going right back to the basics and question each person's theory.
Therefore Professor, you are the one who is WRONG here. Here is how I can back up my statement. The tre, atre, g- whatever will cause a default code in the ECU. The backups are what the units trigger. Make sense yet? Notice the pattern of a computer bike and how the voltage signal is the key to the whole ECU reading a strange voltage value that spits a code?
Professor, you pulled the information right out of the manual, did you not? Read where it says the bike will default to a 6 when the sensor is faulty. receives the wrong voltage, or is disconnected. Is there a troubleshooting tree to walk you thru the test? Why can't you see you cannot force a computer ECU to do what you think it does, when all it's doing is reading a voltage signal... be it from the sensor, or taken over by the ECU's backup mode when that sensor fails, or better yet... when you install a tre.
Just like the BUSA, the 14 runs in what's called an, "a-N method" backup for low speed A/F metering. Lose the TPS signal for high speed rpm and the ECU defaults to the, D-J method. Both computer bikes use the same system backup, only Suz calls it something else for obvious legal purposes.
I'll have to use these two (method) examples as the Busa's similar default 6 code handles the low speed rpm readings; (a-N method) is the backup fuel/ign delivery. TPS is still connected to the throttle body, so the Busa is not locked into the, (D-J type method). You cannot feel the transition from low speed digital back to sensor analog if you WOT the throttle. The metering is this precise.
Please, don't tell me I haven't done my homework delving into the ECU to understand it. I ran the bike without the GPS connected. Guess what the dash read? How did the ECU get to a locked 6 when I unplugged the the GPS from the harness. You install a tre, you receive the same locked 6. Now, the logic of this tests proves without a doubt, your theory Professor, is that the, "TRE places the correct voltage'... 'signal to the ECU..."? No Professor, It (the tre) sends an "out of range" signal that automatically alerts the ECU to load that faulty sensor (out of spec signal with the tre in between the sensor signal) in it's backup mode = 6 locked. Follow the logical progression... This is why you are confused with all the gear signals and what the ignition and fuel is doing. Bring the ATRE up and I'll show you another code (if not the same ECU backup defaulting to the "method" fuel/ign metering) harvested inside the ECU. It's that easy to understand.
I threw fuel at the 14 with one of those TFI(?) dealies. I could toggle the fuel on and off. Damn if the extra fuel didn't smooth out the ride, induce a flat spot, plus, I lost the sharp responsiveness of the, (low speed backup) a-N method setting. More fuel was the last thing the engine wanted in a 6 locker mode. That's what my 14 responded to.
Professor, I don't make the rules. I have to follow the troubleshooting logic. It either works one way, or no way. What the tre and any other non-fuel type units you plug in between the stock wire harness says it does, that aftermarket unit will trigger the default backup code(s) every single time.
This is easy, yet complex to understand. Unlike JC, which btw, I have nothing personal against the person; I just don't respond well to, "You don't need a tre, ha,ha,ha" ... as an answer. I'm trying to explain the complex in the abstract. Is using the word, "harvest" too abstract to understand what the ECU is doing? Every time you walk thru the points of fuel injection, the tre, the pcom, I'm going right back to the basics and question each person's theory.
Therefore Professor, you are the one who is WRONG here. Here is how I can back up my statement. The tre, atre, g- whatever will cause a default code in the ECU. The backups are what the units trigger. Make sense yet? Notice the pattern of a computer bike and how the voltage signal is the key to the whole ECU reading a strange voltage value that spits a code?
I agree on one point you make for sure. This is still unbelievable
I may be wrong, but your post does nothing to convince me that I am. Let’s just forget every thing and focus on one thing at a time. Lets start on the Busa. Not your 14, not your 2000 Toyota….. nothing but a 01-06 Suzuki Hayabusa. If you want to debate the other stuff, I’m out.
So let’s start at some basic theory. Let’s focus on how the ECU knows what position the Gearshift Position Sensor is in. The switch changes the resistance value for each position, by using different resistance values.
There are 6 different resistor values in the GPS (not counting the open in neutral)
6th gear 15K ohm
5th gear 6.8K ohm
4th gear 2.75K ohm
3rd gear 1.5k ohm
2nd gear 835 ohm
1st gear 588 ohm
Neutral is open
It appears to use the common 5volt supply normal in the computer world.
The ECU monitors the resistance by the amount of voltage they drop across the resistor.
6th gear 4.76 volts
5th gear 4.42 volts
4th gear 3.72 volts
3rd gear 3.03 volts
2nd gear 2.28 volts
1st gear 1.83 volts
Neutral max @ 5.06 volts.
OK, Do you Agree with me so far?
diablotoona
Registered
I can see your point in stating that a TRE unit causes the bike to use a default "error" map, using 6th gears would make sense, this does not explain why a TRE raises top speed and rev limiters though as I thought that it did and if the bike would read 6th gear those limits would still apply right?
I can see a logic in defaulting in 6th gear if no voltage variation is seen from the gps, cars have all sorts of checks like such for various sensor systems but personally i do not think the busa system is that complex it would use that.
If your theory is true, why would rev and speed limit be removed when using a TRE?
One more thing can we call the bike fuel injected bikes instead of computer bikes, sounds kind of trekky calling a fuel injected bike a computer bike, no pun intended.
I can see a logic in defaulting in 6th gear if no voltage variation is seen from the gps, cars have all sorts of checks like such for various sensor systems but personally i do not think the busa system is that complex it would use that.
If your theory is true, why would rev and speed limit be removed when using a TRE?
One more thing can we call the bike fuel injected bikes instead of computer bikes, sounds kind of trekky calling a fuel injected bike a computer bike, no pun intended.
Professor, You will have to give a little leeeway/latitude here. It's a Busa, it's a 14, it's a, COMPUTER BIKE! All I'm doing is showing the same voltage disruption pattern both bikes react to.
Yes, all tests were done on a 14. Like I said, if this was a Busa, I'd be deep setting the ECU by now. Look at the shift voltage plots. Same voltage is lowering as the shifts go up. Looks like your normal running shift pattern as any other computer bike.
So yes, I agree. We are seeing the "analog" electrical shifting sequence. As far as a dash reading, you are seeing a "self-diagnosing signal" triggered by the ECU. Can we agree there is a something triggered on the Busa dash when the tre is installed, be it a flashing signal, a steady light on that is not normal.
If there is some sort of dash signal, it tells me there is a disruption the ECU has detected. That detection defaults to a, "transistorized" signal, not the analog (multi-voltage) signals. Can we agree on that?
Yes, all tests were done on a 14. Like I said, if this was a Busa, I'd be deep setting the ECU by now. Look at the shift voltage plots. Same voltage is lowering as the shifts go up. Looks like your normal running shift pattern as any other computer bike.
So yes, I agree. We are seeing the "analog" electrical shifting sequence. As far as a dash reading, you are seeing a "self-diagnosing signal" triggered by the ECU. Can we agree there is a something triggered on the Busa dash when the tre is installed, be it a flashing signal, a steady light on that is not normal.
If there is some sort of dash signal, it tells me there is a disruption the ECU has detected. That detection defaults to a, "transistorized" signal, not the analog (multi-voltage) signals. Can we agree on that?
Although you still filled your post with info about other computer bikes, you did finally answer one of the two questions.
I’ll help you out here.
No, your test was not completed on a Hayabusa, it was done on a 14.
No, I’m not willing to give the leeway and latitude just yet. Again, let’s limit the discussion to the Hayabusa. Remember this is Hayabusa.org. It is not ZX14.org or computerbikes.org. We might get back to the 14 later in another thread, but it is not right to litter the threads with 14 info. You say they are the same, I say there are a couple of differences. I agree we disagree…. But I’m putting my foot down. Lets keep it on topic.
Again, my other question (I’m not sure if you answered or not) --- Do you agree with the info I posted about 5 up with the resistance used and voltage reading found and how the ECU used them to determine what gear the motorcycle is in? I'm not willing to go further with this unless we can at least agree on something.
And Spoket is waiting for more!
diablotoona
Registered
I did not realize 2busa was talking about a ZX14, I can honestly say that there is no point in comparing the busa ecus and operating system to a 14, the 14 was recently released and its ecu is far more advanced than the busa's, hence the light on dash when trying to use a TRE, the new system is much smarter than the busa's, at least diagnostic wise, its almost like comparing OBD-I vs. OBD-II automotive protocols.
Professor, The voltage values are the analog readings. I agree that the ECU reads this as the A/F settings. If you install the tre, you lose the analog voltage. and now read the 'transistorized' voltage value. How many wires are we talking, 3? One wire for ground, one for analog F/A, the other for the shift indicator... correct?
I've answered your question, Professor. Are we in agreement? Make sure you check the manual's wiring, follow the ground, the wire into the ecu, then the shift select window, is my guess (on the wiring).
I've answered your question, Professor. Are we in agreement? Make sure you check the manual's wiring, follow the ground, the wire into the ecu, then the shift select window, is my guess (on the wiring).
2busa,
You still failed to answer the question or confused me. Then you get ahead of the point I want to be at in the discussion. But I will thank you for not throwing in ZX14 info.
Yes there are 3 wires coming from the GPS sensor. I’m not sure where you are coming up with A/F settings?
Now I have two questions:
1) Did you download the Busa service manual I pointed out to in another thread?
2) Back to the same old one… Do you agree with the info I posted about previously about the resistance used and voltage reading founds and how the ECU used them to determine what gear the motorcycle is in?
Professor,
1. No, I did not download the book. I viewed a Busa thread ~ GPS/Trans fix and guessed on the wiring. Seems the GPS wiring is universal (3 wires) between computer bikes.
2. No, I do no agree the resistance voltage determines which gear it's in. The 3rd wire is the gear recognition. The resistance wire is part of the FI "analog" A/F readings. Meaning, "Air" is the (constantly changing) temp/air-pressure and "Fuel" determines the final fuel quantity. The ground wire completes the circuit.
Do you agree what the 3 GPS wires do? If you don't, then explain how the the analog A/F is determined?
1. No, I did not download the book. I viewed a Busa thread ~ GPS/Trans fix and guessed on the wiring. Seems the GPS wiring is universal (3 wires) between computer bikes.
2. No, I do no agree the resistance voltage determines which gear it's in. The 3rd wire is the gear recognition. The resistance wire is part of the FI "analog" A/F readings. Meaning, "Air" is the (constantly changing) temp/air-pressure and "Fuel" determines the final fuel quantity. The ground wire completes the circuit.
Do you agree what the 3 GPS wires do? If you don't, then explain how the the analog A/F is determined?
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