Opinions on Ferguson MO

A cop should never be a judge delivering a death sentence.

I agree. However I believe that most cops and even citizens are trained that if they pull out their gun they shoot to kill.
And most will do just that if they really feel threatened.

Again split second decisions are tough but could the suspect have been shot in a leg? As it appears that he was close enough.
Most people shot in a leg will fall down almost immediately especially a kneecap - Just saying that there MIGHT have been someplace
else to shoot him instead of his head. But I wasn't there and in that situation, so it's only an observation for the future.
 
Did he really include Bill Cosby in his list of role models?

You got it all wrong Fallen..... he just wants the womens to taste his Jell-O Pudding :rofl:

bill-cosby.gif
 
Well I have not posted here because Mike Brown is not the type of person I want to defend. But there are a couple things of note:

1. Brown was on his way to college I believe. Not a great person maybe but not a total idiot.
By my standards a total idiot. There's two Black Colleges in the city I work in. Not my name but what everyone calls them around here. By the way the city I work in is at least 95% black if not 98%. The entire City government is black and with the exception of the city administrator, the accountant and three officers now, a few months ago I was the only white officers. Just painting a picture, none of that matters to me or I wouldn't have been working there for the past three years. Most of the kids. I say kids but there's people my age attending are bangers. It's all about money. For the students and the school. US Marshals have been there often to arrest students registering that are wanted for murder and other high crimes. Since I started two students have been shot on campus. You would trip out if you observed this place at day and night for a few months. I'm very sure there's some good people attending and trying to better their lot in life but most are there for the check and that's how they talk about it openly. Incredible amount of drugs and alcohol abused. If you walk into a dorm it will knock you off your feet. When we are called and we try to get statements we are typically asked to write the statement for the individual. It's terrible. You would be shocked. A lot of folks attend under court order. Go to college or go to prison. Hard choice right. The other college is more of what you're thinking of. It's much better but every year it seems to get worse. Lot of bright kids out there but even the staff will tell you attendance is poor. Parties every night. Now dope and alcohol and parties are probably typical on all college campuses except the private church owned. Probably a lot less on those campuses. Anyway the kids I deal with can hardly write. I really don't understand it, but i'd love to see his high school transcript if you have it and know where he was planning on attending and what he was gonna major in. But it's irrelevant anyway. His actions are.
2. The story makes no sense unless you believe Brown to be a total animal. If he was on meth or something these guys would have leaked that along with the rest of the smear campaign. Something started this altercation and that has not come out - but that is critical as to the cops motive in the shooting.
Did you miss the video of him in the store perhaps minutes before the encounter ? What kicked this off was Brown walking down the middle of the street. Crazy right. Wilson pulled up on him and asked him to get out of the middle of the road. See if you can find a copy of his interview with George on youtube. I think the entire interview is airing Tuesday or something. It might answer some of your questions. The only one to refer to Brown that I've seen was an NAACP guy.
3. 12 shots, 7 hits?
Not all cops are great shots and it's a lot different out on the range standing around and grabbing ass and shooting stationary paper targets vs. being in a fight and shooting while struggling and shooting at a moving target with your body working against you in survival mode
4. So a cop has a gun, why charge an armed cop? Brown turned and charged because he knew he could not out run the bullets - his only chance was to stop them from being fired.
Great story but it doesn't match the evidence and testimony of at least 6 witnesses. Only Brown knows why he did all the things he did that day.
5. The stories are conflicting, so that why we needed a trial. It is not the role of the Grand jury to decide who is telling the truth, only to decide if a trial is warranted.
The Grand Jury did their job as a matter of fact they went way beyond what a grand jury would normally do because of the media attention and presidents involvement. The evidence backed up some witnesses and the officer. Their decision was based on facts not who was or wasn't telling the truth.
6. Its getting too easy to gun down people of color in this country. Everyone deserves due process. Strap on the gun as an officer of the law and you are obligated to make every effort to give a suspect that opportunity, blasting away should be a last resort.



Victim Total White Offender Black Offender Other

White 3,128 2,614 431 36 47 2,800 281 47
Black 2,648 193 2,412 12 31 2,366 251 31
Other race 183 42 36 103 2 168 13 2
Unknown race 59 26 17 1 15 41 3 15

Sex of victim Total Race of offender Sex of offender
White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown
Male 4,208 1,804 2,257 85 62 3,725 421 62
Female 1,751 1,045 622 66 18 1,609 124 18
Unknown sex 59 26 17 1 15 41 3 15

Blasting away as you put it is the last choice an officer has. That officer has the right under the 4th amendment to go home at the end of the shift. The officers aren't the problem. I'm not happy with my research, maybe you can do better but it looks like law enforcement kills about 400 people a year vs. nearly 15K homicides per year. Remember that a large part of those are what's known as suicide by cop. Do we really need to worry about the cops ?


That being said, riots are stupid and unproductive. As a black man in America, I have never been hassled but not really treated unfairly by the police. Finally every officer should have the expectation of going home alive.

BTW: Both President Obama and Al Sharpton have been calling for peaceful protest, it's on video guys.

Not really, but hey unicorns exist.
 
I'm sure he is sincere, and I respect all men and women who put their life on the line for our freedom. But he is a bit misguided. It's very difficult to rise above a system stacked against you, so I don't judge those who can't seem to make it over the hump. Did he really include Bill Cosby in his list of role models?

I don't want to be in a position of defending Brown. Wrong is wrong no matter what drove you to the confrontation. But that doesn't mean I can't question the obvious race issues in the way that city operates. Also, if you wear the badge it's your responsibility to keep your head in a difficult situation. A cop should never be a judge delivering a death sentence.

That's highly insulting to every man and woman that wears a badge. I guess you're saying you would police without weapons ....... by the way officers don't make those choices the subjects do.
 
worked perfectly fine in LA when they had their riots. no one looted their stores. ppl are far more intimidated by a shotgun then a hand gun. ur assuming I'm referring to buck shot. I'm sayn slugs. hand guns wud be a waste if I was securing my property.

shotgun is 10x more effective so yes I agree its a great example to bear arms to protect ur property. the 2nd amendment says nothing about having to carry a pistol. it simply says arms. I'm all for ppl having shotguns to secure their home or business we just don't need every yahoo rambo wannabe running around with a pistol.

it doesn't work which is why we have such a high murder rate. unless u think most ppl murdered are murdered by bats? hand guns make up 70% of all murders. can't remember the last time a cop was murdered around here by anything other then a hand gun.

A shotgun would not have been the most effective weapon, as the spray might also hit others who are not part of the problem. Besides, I'm not sure that I'd let any self-styled government 'expert' TELL ME which firearm was the "best" for any given situation....the fact is, the best recent example for the need of the 2nd amendment is FERGUSON MO...
 
Kind of hard to ask questions of a dead person. Yes all the evidence that was available?
Not sure if all the eye witnesses were interviewed? No video camera in the vehicle? ???

I don't have enough info to make a judgement. So who am I to judge.

According to the interview with the police officer there was a point when the kid walked away from him.
At that point the policeman got out of his vehicle and went towards him.

I know I wasn't there, but it seems to me that (the kid walking away) might have been the time to back down and
wait for backup to arrive. Especially after he made comments about how big and strong the kid was.
It was a judgement call I'm sure and again without being there who am I to judge?


This page does an excellent breakdown of the evidence, showing step by step what happened:

What happened in Ferguson - Washington Post
 
in today's sue happy world...if you TRULY believe you need to protect life and limb and have to draw your weapon, any intent to NOT KILL is PROOF you were not in dire enough circumstances to JUSTIFY drawing a weapon to defend yourself....and PURPOSELY trying to wound will leave you with possible criminal and CIVIL lawsuits
 
"but I understand why they are upset" part.....

That didn't bother me. I understand why they are upset also. Understanding it, allows us to try and make progress in addressing it. And that doesn't mean giving in to it.

And I for one appreciate also the post here showing white rioting. It allowed me to see just how much media can shape an image we see. And I am ashamed of my race when I see them do this. And I think Fallenarch is also. So lets use that common ground to build from. Hopefully both sides can agree we should punish these offenders EQUALLY!

I was forced by circumstance to grow up in the south. My dad got transferred here. I grew up witnessing cross burnings, lynchings, KKK parades. Our own house had a cross burned in the front yard. My dad worked with John Procter. He worked the killing of the civil rights activist in Ms. back in the 60s. Google it if you like. John Procter had death threats made to him by whites after he prosecuted. The sons and daughters of these racist are alive and well today. I left Ms. when I was 16. Hated it. I had whites all around me telling me to hate people I have never met. When you are young, you are impressionable and more open to drinking the Kool-Aid. I left the south. Lived and saw the world. Returned 25 years later, to see the same hatred alive and well.

Lack of education and opportunity and economic status, is absolutely a factor of how people end up in their lives. These rednecks that hate are the same product of lack of education, etc. It is generational for them as well. They are no better then the blacks that are racist. Its a taught and learned thing. I respect Fallenarch's opinion more than I do some white members on this board. And I don't care if that bothers anyone else or not. Respecting them and agreeing to them are 2 different things.

For me what I need to see, is good leadership for each group. Make peace by having the leaders of each group, align themselves to a compromise as best they can. We are now a product of the same melting pot that brought us all here at some point.

I am sorry we lost MLK. He presented many productive ways to help bridge the racial gap. Non violently and with results. And he was shot down by a white racist. And Mr. Cosby. You have pissed me completely off. Until about 2 weeks ago, I liked what you tried to present to your black community as an example.

My sister and I are diametrically opposed politically. I still love and care for her and we find common ground to be productive in our own ways. Sometimes I need to draw on her strengths and sometimes she needs to draw on mine. She has a daughter who is making huge bad choices and my sister is now having to own up to her part in it!

I lived with and still to this day have a Muslim best friend, I love more than my own brother. In his world growing up, racism and religion can be swapped in conversation, and the results are the same. He realized that if he stayed in his home country of Iran, he would have been expected to hate anything that was part of a different religion. Yet he is still a practicing Muslim with a value system many Christians and Americans could do well to try and match. After 9/11 he was attacked and beaten....more than once. For doing nothing but being Muslim with a Middle East origin, walking down the street or shopping in a store. He was in fact working with us to track down Muslim terrorist. To protect this country he loves ! He speaks 7 languages, 4 Middle Eastern Languages, and knows the Quran about as well as any Cleric.

I have learned as I have seen life, there is nothing wrong with hating something. Until it becomes the only thing that you expend your energy doing. Then it begins to control you rather than you control it.

Please have a Happy Thanksgiving, be thankful for what we have and look forward to as good a new year as we can manage.

Sorry the holidays are bringing out my sappy side. :-)
 
I agree. However I believe that most cops and even citizens are trained that if they pull out their gun they shoot to kill.
And most will do just that if they really feel threatened.

Again split second decisions are tough but could the suspect have been shot in a leg? As it appears that he was close enough.
Most people shot in a leg will fall down almost immediately especially a kneecap - Just saying that there MIGHT have been someplace
else to shoot him instead of his head. But I wasn't there and in that situation, so it's only an observation for the future.

I think the headshot was the last and fatal shot. If the officer was in his vehicle as it appears, he would have had to have shot through the door to hit a leg. This man was about to get his clock cleaned by this hulk. You don't appreciate the split second importance of his trained decision making skills that he had to use.

Now I won't disagree that after the chase ensued there could have been a non fatal shot to try and subdue. But when that failed. What would you propose he do? If you look at the evidence laid out in the link, by the time the head shot happened, that was the largest target area he had to shoot at.

The next chapter of this saga that will take us into another year of unrest, will be the re-scrutinizing of the evidence by everyone that sees it now. I can't change that this was the evidence presented to the Grand Jury. Until such time as that gets legally overthrown, I have to abide by its findings as they were presented. If it gets overthrown I promise I won't go burn down my city.
 
worked perfectly fine in LA when they had their riots. no one looted their stores. ppl are far more intimidated by a shotgun then a hand gun. ur assuming I'm referring to buck shot. I'm sayn slugs. hand guns wud be a waste if I was securing my property.

shotgun is 10x more effective so yes I agree its a great example to bear arms to protect ur property. the 2nd amendment says nothing about having to carry a pistol. it simply says arms. I'm all for ppl having shotguns to secure their home or business we just don't need every yahoo rambo wannabe running around with a pistol.

it doesn't work which is why we have such a high murder rate. unless u think most ppl murdered are murdered by bats? hand guns make up 70% of all murders. can't remember the last time a cop was murdered around here by anything other then a hand gun.

Kinda hard for me to carry a shotgun around in my back pocket, when the criminals who would assault me and my family don't have a problem with it...Remember Brett, I've had a CCW for almost 25 years now - Thank goodness I've never had to use it. You can continue to argue against handguns, but what you cannot deny is that there is a SOLID reason for the 2A....
 
A cop should never be a judge delivering a death sentence.

If Wilson did not defend himself, what do you think the chances are that he would still be alive today?

If Wilson did not pursue Brown as trained in doing his job, a LEO allowing an assault robber to get away, doing nothing in fear of getting hurt or getting into trouble. What do you think his fellow officers and superiors would have thought of him, following a policy of if a criminal gets too rough, just let him go.

Brown committed crime, assaulted a store owner and stealing, resisted arrest, assaulted a police officer and got shot. If we all decide to just look the other way and let people do what they want, when they want, where do you believe that would lead to?

I have a value systems problem with anyone who condones the behavior of riot criminals in Ferguson and I believe the authorities are too soft and forgiving to even let things go this far.
 
Not really, but hey unicorns exist.

The officer's story doesn't check either. Also the guy who was walking in the middle of the road with Brown says different. According to him, the cop rolled up on them very close with the car and had to push Brown out of the way to get the door open, which is when the altercation started. Again I am not defending Brown. Basically there are all kinds of conflicting facts - that's why there should have been a trial.

I think all this boils down to this: Police have a right to protect themselves, but they have to be responsible for making good decisions at that split second when the life or death choice is made. That's the essential difference between a force for order and an occupation. I totally agree that if a cop pulls the trigger they should aim for the surest kill. So the issue is not should cops kill when they shoot, its when should they shoot.

I feel like a lot of white people feel like it's just a cost of maintaining order if cops shoot a few innocent black people. I can't accept that, especially if my family, friends or even I myself might be one of those "accidents". This is why when a cop makes an error, or even a questionable shoot there has to be more done than just say "oops, guess we wasted another n-word." I worded that confrontationally because I think this is how we see this and I don't think most white people understand that. It is difficult for a white person to be totally objective when judging the intent of a black person any more than it's possible for a black person to judge a white person. That's why in a town that's 90% black you just can't have an all white police force. It's a fact that when white people judge black people they convict them at significantly higher numbers than whites. This systemic inequality built into the system is the source of anger in communities like Ferguson.

It is not a good thing to have police officers getting injured or killed because they are afraid to fire their weapons. It's also unacceptable to have innocent citizens killed because and an officer over reacted. Remember that all suspects are innocent at the point of an arrest - that's the law.
 
If Wilson did not defend himself, what do you think the chances are that he would still be alive today?

If Wilson did not pursue Brown as trained in doing his job, a LEO allowing an assault robber to get away, doing nothing in fear of getting hurt or getting into trouble. What do you think his fellow officers and superiors would have thought of him, following a policy of if a criminal gets too rough, just let him go.

Brown committed crime, assaulted a store owner and stealing, resisted arrest, assaulted a police officer and got shot. If we all decide to just look the other way and let people do what they want, when they want, where do you believe that would lead to?

I have a value systems problem with anyone who condones the behavior of riot criminals in Ferguson and I believe the authorities are too soft and forgiving to even let things go this far.

As I have said, I am not defending Brown and I don't condone riots and looting. I think that stuff is destracting people from the real issues here - you should not have an all white police force policing an all black population.
 
I think the headshot was the last and fatal shot. If the officer was in his vehicle as it appears, he would have had to have shot through the door to hit a leg. This man was about to get his clock cleaned by this hulk. You don't appreciate the split second importance of his trained decision making skills that he had to use.

I could be wrong but I think you have some of the facts wrong.
According to the interview the cop did, The kid walked away, then he got OUT OF HIS VEHICLE.
So there was no shooting through a door....

The kid turned around and stated running towards him. That is when he started firing and that is where I thought there
MIGHT BE a chance to shot him in the leg. I guess you haven't read all my posts as I thought I made it pretty clear that
I do know about split second decisions and that they are hard to make and sometimes the best one isn't made in hind-sight, but they
are usually the best one given the amount of time to make them.

Because I wasn't there and it wasn't me in that situation who am I to judge. I don't know that I would have done anything different.
If everything else was exactly the same.

I stated that if he had stayed in his vehicle with the windows up and the doors locked things might have turned out differently.

Because he chose not to do that doesn't mean what he did was wrong. Maybe he has more guts then me - because I know I'm not
going to win a fight with a guy that weighs more then 100lbs more then me and is younger and stronger too.
So if I were in that situation and got out of the vehicle and that kid charged at me I would fear for my life or great bodily harm
and empty the gun hoping to stop him.

I might very well have waited for backup. But that's just me.

So in a nutshell I think the cop did what he had to do under those circumstances.

The part that I don't like is him saying that he would do nothing different. Come on be for real. Yes you have to say that otherwise
the outcome would be different.

He could have waited for backup, or taken the day off, or drove down the road and then turned around, or 100 other things.
But nobody can change the past and so we all have to live with what we did in the past.
I'll bet he never went to work that day thinking it would be the last day he worked as a police officer. Maybe even work in that city again?
 
I could be wrong but I think you have some of the facts wrong.
According to the interview the cop did, The kid walked away, then he got OUT OF HIS VEHICLE.
So there was no shooting through a door....

There was 2 exchanges between the cop and Brown. The 1st one was in the close quarters at the car, the second was as Brown was pursued. I showed that it would be impossible to have knowingly shot him the leg through the door. So the only other time was as he was pursued and turned. To which I acknowledged that there was non lethal shots fired, that didn't stop Brown. The rest is the rest. Evidence supported by the Grand Jury found the cops as right in his actions.

The cop has a job to do. He was trained and carried out his duties as expected. I would expect him to repeat that process again when faced with the same circumstance. Whether or not it would have been fatal next time is unknown. People that commit crimes, have a higher a probability of death, than those that don't. Asking the cops to walk away from these........

I won't go there.
 
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