Killing America Slowly

[MelodicMetalGod]

Wow! What a post, MelodicMetalGold! You bring up valid and to the point concerns, and elaborate well. A dash of humor makes it easy to read.

The objective of the book is to solve one issue - governments getting out of control, and dragging the country down, eventually to a crisis of magnitude. Key here is understanding why governments behave this way - and on a very fundamental level - away from politics, and that's what I hope will unite most people. I spoke with many who stick with a certain party not because they are such big fans, but because they see no other way. Most people are fed up with governments, and will gladly take a better path if presented. Regarding all other topics, let people argue - we are humans and have different opinions, and that's OK.

You are right that politicians often don't follow on their promises. However, this will be an issue of one simple and bold promise. It will be really hard to back off. What you also may not realize that those politicians who don't feel comfortable making such promise will not be elected. As a result, a different breed of politicians will emerge.

"So the question is, why would we expect the people to unite over one fundamental concept, CAP, when they have never even come close to doing so over another, taxes?"

Your question contains the answer: fundamental concept. Your example with taxes is great. However, this is a common problem, but not a fundamental concept. Situation with taxes is a consequence of something else, namely the desire of the governments to squeeze more and more money out of it's people, which in turn is a consequence of governments growing and getting out of control and as a result needing more money. Without addressing the underlying reasons attempting to change the tax system is futile. Governments getting out of control is the fundamental reason - not only when it comes to taxes, but to so many other things - big and small.

"The other question is, of course, if the system (current politicians and businesses and wealth holders) determines the candidates from whom we may choose to vote into office, why would the system provide us such options that would lead to the destruction of the system?"

They do influence the selection, however if people demand one and only one thing - voting for CAP, there would be nothing they (system) could do no matter how they disagree with it. It is our divisiveness which gives politicians so much wiggle room in making promises. Once it is narrowed down to a simple indisputable issue, they will have no choice but to either accept it, or give up their position. This will allow a new breed of politicians to emerge. Have no doubt that current politicians and businesses and wealth holders will put a desperate fight.

As to the technical implementation of CAP, you are generalizing and throwing many things in one basket. By the sound of it, no computer system can be implemented. Yet, we have so many computer systems successfully running. Hackers can only take advantage of flaws in the the system - there is no magic here. You have to point out to a specific flaw. Being a software developer, I am very specific and deliberate when it comes to technical implementation. So, are you saying that hackers will break into the banks' systems and add/change votes? If they could do it, they would routinely be breaking into our banks and stealing money - a more lucrative proposition. Never heard of that. Same goes for ISP's. I also never heard about a hacker breaking through VPN, because that's how banks and ISP's will be communicating.

All the reasons you are providing are more of a general nature, more indicative of your overall doubt - an emotional state. Let me address them one by one.

1) Even little data can be complex. And CAP would be MASSIVE data.

General statement. There are approx. 150 million registered voters. Unidentifiable voting information for each voter would occupy no more than let's say 1000 bytes. So, all voting information would occupy 150 GB of data - a smaller portion of a typical 500 GB or even 1 TB hard drive on your typical desktop, or even a laptop.

2) A system such as cap would be perhaps the most massive secure data universally accessible system EVER. The design and implementation would be a team effort of thousands of people. Without worrying about security or integrity, it would be a massive undertaking. Adding in the security/integrity aspects takes it to a whole ‘nother level. Mistakes in design, implementation, maintenance, support and user operation will happen. Most issues will be addressed. Eventually. IF they are discovered. Think digital “hanging chads”.

General and wrong statements. By design, the viewing part of the system is already available to anyone - there is no need to hack or breach anything. Anyone in the world is free to download all voting information which does not contain any identifiable information such as names, addresses, etc.

You are also wrong about the design and implementation effort. The system is actually so simple - a lot simpler than many existing computer systems. It would take no more than 10-20 people to design. Logic is simple, and there are just a handful of possible screen layouts. Heck, a single enthusiast developer could do the work. Banks will only have to tweak their existing systems to accommodate a few new fields, otherwise it's like creating a bank account.

Automated Continuous Auditing Process quickly discovers discrepancies assuring the system's integrity.


3) People aren’t perfect in effort or morality or integrity. Implementation of CAP will take a a LOT of people. Some of them will be bound to be looking for a way to manipulate the system and others will be hired by “the system” to specifically seek out way to manipulate the system.

Let them try, and end up in prison. It is a valid concern, but supported by a very general statement. I can only reiterate: it is theoretically impossible to alter data which will go unnoticed. Try to come up with a single scenario how this could be accomplished.


4) Banks and ISP’s are in it for the money. Being entrusted to maintain CAP would make them a primary target for “the system”. Since Banks are ISP’s are made up of people, “the system” will likely find takers. Thus, there is no guarantee that Banks or ISP’s will serve the spirit of CAP.

Again, general statement suggesting that nothing can be implemented at all. Please point out how a bank or an ISP would take advantage of it, or how an outsider would target the system.


5) Finally, one word: Hackers. They’re out there. And the best will be employed by “the system” to exploit CAP for the benefit of the system.

Absolutely valid concern, but once again, hackers can only exploit a flaw. ISP's do NOT have any identifying information. ISP's do not have an interface allowing to change voting information. In order to change voting information, a hacker needs to penetrate an ISP, learn DB passwords, learn server passwords, and so on and so forth. But even if all of this is successful, automated Continuous Auditing Process will quickly discover the discrepancy between ISP data and bank data.

Your humor is appreciated, LOL. And as you pointed out correctly, in order to start this process, the key is to unite and put all our bickering aside. I hope that understanding that absence of full and continuous control over our governments is the fundamental reason - will do just that.

I appreciate your detailed responses leading to a productive discussion of this important subject.

Igor, I also appreciate your productive, logical and constructive approach in your responses and proposals.

As for step 1, a united front, I hope you're correct that the people can work together long enough to make a change that is truly '...of...by...and for the people'. Like many, I have my doubts that the majority of the population has the combination of maturity, intelligence and wisdom to grant them the wisdom to work together long enough to bring about meaningful change.

As for step 2, politicians being motivated to bring CAP into law, again, I hope you're correct that a united front can bring such a change. For if not, then we will surely see things continue on the path that see more and more people having less and less until enough people have nothing to lose that they are willing to take extreme action (revolution, anarchy, etc).

Finally, with regard to step 3, implementing CAP, I am glad to hear that your experience as a developer has not dissuaded your optimism that such an implementation is truly viable. That said, I work with data and, in the past, hardware technology. While I have seen amazing changes and accomplishments in the world of technology in general as well as in specific projects and markets, I have also seen massive failures in planning, design, project management, implementation, security and support, not to mention watching the issues of office and business politics take precedence over logic and fact in favor of appeasing a personality or an alliance. Again, I hope that you, not I, are correct in your optimism on this point.

You asked that your points either be disproven or accepted as a viable plan. Well, like so many things, the final analysis is a bit grey rather than being black or white. Proof, by definition, can only be had through experimentation, so I cannot disprove your plan. Not can you prove it without trial. I look forward to the grand experiment!

Like you, I'm assuming, I believe that a great many things are possible. Where you and I lean in different directions is that I also believe that many possibilities are also very unlikely. Unfortunately, that is what I see here: An idea that has merit and great intention, be it perfect or not, but also an idea that is founded on three changes that are not likely to come about.

That said, electric motorcycles are racing at the Isle of Mann, people are wearing computers on their faces, Spoon Rocket can deliver a meal in less than 5 minutes from when the order is placed and every once in a while you come across a dog and a cat napping together/best of friends. So perhaps this idea will defy the odds and bring about a real change for the better. I, for one, would happily be proven wrong.

Best of luck!

 

[IG.]

MelodicMetalGod, thank you for the very balanced assessment! As you pointed out, we are in the grey area, and a lot depends on our attitudes and actions. We can discuss and doubt things all day long. However, without any action, I have a 100% guarantee that nothing good will happen. The book outlines specific steps, and provides enough reasoning to take them seriously. It boils down to a simple thing - are you personally willing to make an effort? When you say Good Luck to me, it seems like you are stepping aside. I don't need luck. It's not about me. The only benefit I would ever get is the same benefit everybody else would - having a better country, society, government.

The very first practical step in this process is to simply promote the concept everywhere and to anyone you can - essentially, spreading the word. Are you willing to advocate the proposed reasoning and approach, and answer tough questions in the same way I have been doing?

"Bad things happen when good people do nothing".

 

[mjrfd99]

America PC'ed itself to death. You elected the most inept POSUS in history. Twice LOL

 

[IG.]

No doubt about that. But the problem is deeper. No matter who will be elected the country will still be going downhill - a little faster, or a little slower - is the only difference.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

MelodicMetalGod, thank you for the very balanced assessment! As you pointed out, we are in the grey area, and a lot depends on our attitudes and actions. We can discuss and doubt things all day long. However, without any action, I have a 100% guarantee that nothing good will happen. The book outlines specific steps, and provides enough reasoning to take them seriously. It boils down to a simple thing - are you personally willing to make an effort? When you say Good Luck to me, it seems like you are stepping aside. I don't need luck. It's not about me. The only benefit I would ever get is the same benefit everybody else would - having a better country, society, government.

The very first practical step in this process is to simply promote the concept everywhere and to anyone you can - essentially, spreading the word. Are you willing to advocate the proposed reasoning and approach, and answer tough questions in the same way I have been doing?

"Bad things happen when good people do nothing".

Not at all. I would gladly support such a campaign. Can I help spread the word? Absolutely. But spreading the word and inspiring a national movement are two different things. A grassroots movement that transforms into a legitimate campaign for change would be truly amazing! And that's where I wish you, the campaign, me, and everyone else...Best of luck!

 

[IG.]

Thank you! A national movement is a consequence of a number of things, but the very beginning of it starts with spreading the word. I am also sure that as other people learn and understand the proposed approach, they will also have good ideas on how to improve, refine, and implement it. Heck, I can imagine there will be a lot of volunteers on technical and administrative sides of things because of how specific, simple, and achievable the proposed solution is.

When you let other people know, could you please post it here - for example, something along these lines: I pointed my wife and two of my friends to this thread, and also recommended the book to three co-workers - 6 people total.

If every person recommends to at least 2 or more other people, we could get the ball rolling.

For other readers of this thread, I would like to point out that this is how ideas transform into actions. There is no magic. It is you, the reader, and other people like you who can make it happen by participating, spreading the word, answering questions, and as a result gradually changing other people's minds. When enough people know, the process starts snowballing, and then and only then there is no stopping it, and the idea becomes a true reality.

I know that some of you, the readers of this thread, have questions, doubts, comments, and almost want to express them, but something is holding you back from participating. Please understand that what you have to say may seem insignificant to you - but it is significant for the overall process, because every opinion no matter how insignificant it may seem either reaffirms and strengthens the idea, or improves and refines upon it.

 

[fallenarch]

This is why the NSA must spy on Americans:
Las Vegas ambush kills 5 - ArkLatexHomepage.com

They are dealing with thousands of threats like these daily. How do you protect the country from these "WP Talibans" without stepping on some freedoms? Why post this here in I.G.'s thread on the CAP system? Well as the demographics of the country evolve, we are seeing the increased militarism of those who are threatened by these changes. It would take maybe 2-3 years to develop the technical systems for CAP, then maybe another 3-4 years to implement it fully. So, the democratic power of CAP will be fully showing it's affect on the political system just in time to deliver this power to Asians, young women, and brown/black people, thereby accelerating the disintegration of America and potentially ending this experiment in democracy.

Our founding fathers figured this out. We just need to step up and vote our interests, not our prejudices.

 

[IG.]

Fallenarch, I respectfuly disagree. You are mixing multiple things, and drawing wrong conclusions. BTW, the book predicted that number of shootings would rise, and you ain't seen nothing yet. Even if we turn the US into prison, this would not prevent things like this from happening. Gradual governmental intrusion creates ripple effect reaching farther into people's lives and minds, farther than one can imagine. It is not the only factor causing people to behave like this, but it is a constantly present and gradually increasing factor, which oftentimes plays a role of "last drop" which triggers an outbreak. It causes a growing disconnect between how people are supposed to feel about their lives vs. how they actually feel. Mentally unstable, cult influenced, or religiously fanatic people only transform such ripple effect into a sickening display. It is really hard to attribute this trend to a simple change in demographics. No matter what demographics, vast majority of people coming to the US do so because they want to have a better life for themselves and for their children. But again, this particular incident has little to do with our overall problem with governments being out of control.

You are completely off mark when it comes to estimating time for software development. It is a rather simple and straightforward system which can be developed in less than a year by a team consisting of a few dozen developers. Another 3-6 months for deployment, and that's it. And I am giving you a careful estimate. With a more aggressive approach, these time frames could be easily shortened.

The delay will come from making CAP a law because this involves educating so many people and hopefully convincing them to vote for CAP. And who wouldn't like to vote in order to "Put CAP on the government"?

When you say we need to step up and vote, can you clarify what do you mean by this? When you say "we need" you indicate a desire of something to happen. But how?

Just because governmental influence temporarily brainwashed some groups of people into the wrong ideals does not mean that ultimately these same groups of people would not come back to the same values you and I have. Even more so, the practical way of changing the minds of those people is to "brainwash" them back into normality, and that is exactly what the book promotes.

 

[fallenarch]

What causes people too go off is the constant drum of the government is against you, you are helpless, you must fight back. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophacy - act subversive, government turns up survalence, act more subversive, government turns up survalence even more. You are amazing in your ability to glaze over critical factors in how things happen. There is nothing "simple" about the demographic changes going on in this country or the behavioral changes we are already seeing as a result of it. It will in fact define the next 50 years in our country's history.

As for the timing or development/implementation, I see something like this hapening on a state level first and then maybe spreading to a federal level that could alone could take a decade. The 3-4 years to develope and deploy is maybe not even long enough. Look at the history of electronic voting machines and you will see the point. Big points are security vs access issues. How do you make it accessible by home computers, public computers, smart phones and still secure. It can all be done using existing technology but getting aggrements, writing RFP's, qualifying bidders, etc. will mean that of the 3-4 years only about 6-8 month will actually go into the writing of software!

Peace, I'm out!

 

[IG.]

Implying that modern software development cycle should follow implementation of voting machines is not a forward looking approach. You are referring to the past history, but I am saying in today's world it happens a lot faster. When it comes to actual implementation, this would mean that CAP became a law, and the entire implementation would be on the national scale. No one needs it in stages, on state levels first. No one needs RFP's going around for months and years, no need for bidding. It will be easy to find volunteers. It won't be the government which implements CAP.

Regarding the other question, we talked enough about it, and it really has little relevance to this thread.

 

[fallenarch]

Your push for CAP is Doomed mainly because you fail to acknowledge very real factors that will be major obstacles to what you are trying to do. As a professional designer, I know that doing things outside the box requires a very deep understand of the obstacles that keep people in the box - and having a rational strategy to deal with them. "that's not important" is not one of those strategies that produces results.

I obviously don't think your efforts are in the right direction but I do applaud your trying.

 

[IG.]

Fallenarch, this is again a lot of generalizations and assumptions. It seems your attitude is that nothing new, outside the box as you say, is possible. You seem to be resistant to new things, and a number of times falling back on things from the past in order to predict the future, and without considering how different things are today. You did have some valid points which I addressed, and I do recognize the challenges you identified. But you seem to be brushing off everything, while at the same time offering nothing practical and achievable. According to you, nothing could be accomplished, and we are doomed. I think your arguments became unproductive. I do appreciate your participation. As I mentioned earlier, it is only through our collective effort, understanding, and collaboration we could achieve something meaningful.

I'd like to invite other people who may be reading this, have something to say, but shy away for whatever reason. The processes described in the book go on, slowly but steadily. Have no doubt that this will lead to a crisis of magnitude. And when it happens, there will be a lot of finger pointing, but it will be too late for many. It's really not important why most people don't want to think about the issues raised in the book: this is not my problem. I am too busy, I don't have time to read the book, I don't believe the book has a solution, let politicians figure it out, etc. What is important that the resultant ignorance allows bad things to continue, allows our governments to deteriorate, and negatively affect our society more and more.

How can one disregard that every 6 working people in the US have to support 1 federal, state, or government employee - their salaries, benefits, pensions, perks, cars, etc? How can one disregard that an average salary in the US is approx. $44,000 while an average salary in Washington, D.C. is approx. $72,000? How can one disregard that governmental spending as percentage of GDP is now more than 40%, while at the beginning of the 20th century it was under 10%? How can one disregard this slow historical process? Where do you think this will lead the United States - to prosperity? This is happening in all democratic countries, and for a simple reason - human nature. It is the same human nature which makes governments deteriorate with so little control from its people. It is the same human nature which makes most people ignorant about it. Because we, the people, have the power to change things for the better in our governments, but ignore those things, effectively allowing the problems to deteriorate, and therefore we truly deserve our governments. So, when the crisis occurs do not blame the governments only, but also look in the mirror. We are a relatively young country, and are not immune to societal diseases others already experienced.

I am truly surprised that only two people so far really took the time, read the book, and came with some good questions, points, and concerns - fallenarch and MelodicMetalGod. While we had a number of disagreements, it is still an important process of figuring things out. On the other hand, I am not so surprised because I understand that human nature is the foundation of our society.

Despite all of that, I truly am an optimist, and I think it just takes time for people to participate. So, how about it?

 

[IG.]

I wanted to add a small point, perhaps helping the credibility of the book. I just saw the news story about Oklahoma school shooting - one of the number of shootings lately, and wanted to point out that the book being published in late 2013 - January 2014, clearly predicted that the number of shootings would increase. It also predicts that public at large will be less and less protected in big part thanks to anti-gun laws. Even in today's story, a number of interviewed people raised the question: it takes SWAT team about 40 minutes to arrive, and it takes only seconds for a shooter to hurt/kill other people. So, it only would make sense if schools had some staff with CCW. I also would like to quote a phrase from the book: "Do you think even a mentally disturbed individual would still go out on a shooting spree if he knew that seconds after he opens fire he would encounter a barrage of bullets from other people?"

I anticipate some reaction, and would like to bring up an interesting point from the recent meeting I was asked to attend. One of my relatives is going on a group trip to Israel, and I was asked to attend a meeting with organizers in order to find out details about the trip and address/learn about safety of the trip, etc. One of the questions was regarding the fact that young people in Israel have to join the Army, and always carry weapons with them while traveling to their place of service, or when going back home. Since they frequently take leave on weekends or in the middle of the week, this is so commonplace in Israel that you see military weapons everywhere. And we are not talking about handguns, or military style rifles - we are talking about one of the best true military weapons in the world, capable of killing dozens of people in seconds. The response I got was that this was simply a part of the culture, everyone is used to it, and there is never a problem considering the combined firepower present on the streets. I was told that on the contrary, if there is ever a random shooter, there is always an armed soldier nearby to quickly respond. And my personal take away from this is that it's all about the attitude: a deadly weapon is treated as such from the moment a toddler is capable to comprehend that this thing can hurt people if misused, and until the end of days, and that this is not something to be used during arguments and disagreements. In other words, a respect for deadly weapons as a necessary reality.

I don't want to turn this into a gun debate, but rather wanted to bring this up as something to think about - more as live and real example, and not a theory. I am in no way implying that this is exactly what we should do here in the US. I think we are clever enough to figure it out for our specific circumstances and in an intelligent way, and not wait until extreme circumstances force us to make decisions in a hurry.

 

[fallenarch]

The couple in Vegas shot 2 cops and a citizen who was armed. So much for arming the populace. Do you really want Police walking everywhere with sub machine guns? If you think our freedoms are compromised you should go to Israel with your relatives. The level of government oversight is very heavy there. The difference there is they trust their government.

 

[skydivr]

IT's not "Slowly"; this deal where all these illegal children are coming across (and we are letting/aiding/abetting them) may be the most damaging long-term thing this administration has EVER DONE.

P.S. These two civilians were nuts and gonna get guns anyway. AT LEAST one of the victims had a chance to FIGHT BACK. Who knows how many more they may have killed if this one hasn't slowed them down a little....

 

[IG.]

The couple in Vegas shot 2 cops and a citizen who was armed. So much for arming the populace. Do you really want Police walking everywhere with sub machine guns? If you think our freedoms are compromised you should go to Israel with your relatives. The level of government oversight is very heavy there. The difference there is they trust their government.

Fallenarch, I think your position is clear. Everything the book says is crap, it's a complete nonsense, Utopian theory, and will never work. The example I gave about Israel should not be taken literally which I warned about, and I am getting a sense you are frustrated with this topic, and are very short of name calling. There is nothing really productive in our interaction any longer. I anticipated many responses filled with doubts, criticism, and antipathy. So, no surprise to me. I tried my best to answer every concern you had, and I am thankful that you did bring a number of valid concerns. This only prepares me better for future audiences, and that's how I take it. I have no choice, but to move on and look for people who will share my ideas. That's what a person who believes in himself does.

 

[IG.]

IT's not "Slowly"; this deal where all these illegal children are coming across (and we are letting/aiding/abetting them) may be the most damaging long-term thing this administration has EVER DONE.

P.S. These two civilians were nuts and gonna get guns anyway. AT LEAST one of the victims had a chance to FIGHT BACK. Who knows how many more they may have killed if this one hasn't slowed them down a little....

I agree that this particular action is not "slow". However, the overall deterioration of our federal, state, and local governments is a slow process, and has been going on for many-many years. At times, it is more noticeable.

Good point about one of the victims fighting back! The whole thing is pretty sad though. Saw on TV an officer who attended the scene, crying, probably knew the victims.

 

[fallenarch]

I.G., this is a good read: The Fourth Revolution: The Global Race to Reinvent the State: John Micklethwait, Adrian Wooldridge: 9781594205392: Amazon.com: Books

 

[IG.]

Thank you. Sounds interesting based on the synopsis. I will put it on my to-read list.

 

[IG.]

:bump:

With so many people frustrated with our governments, it is really interesting to observe that most of us expect someone else to fix whatever the problem is. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen by itself. Things will continue to deteriorate to the point of no return, and then it will be too late. As I mentioned earlier, a solution will not come from the government itself, it will not come from politicians, nor a political party.

It is a huge misconception thinking that regular people have no power. Key is how to be clever about using that power. Boiling your frustration in heated political discussions, writing letters to government officials, protesting on the street - this is like revving the engine at a stop light - makes a lot of noise, but accomplishes little. Key is to figure out the root cause of governmental decay, and devise a plan that addresses such root cause, a plan which requires little effort, but produces significant result. And that's what this book is all about. There is no need to disrupt your life or take extraordinary steps in order to make significant positive changes.

So, how about it?