If you think 'taxing the Rich' will dig us out...
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nabusa
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People don't realize it is the government's fault. They spend way to much money everywhere. Example they have big flat screen Tv 's in government offices, they buy tools that are expensive I.e. $20 screwdriver, their computers cost tons of money for system's, they just over pay for everything. They spend our tax money on bs then tax us some more. It will only get worse.
I will add to this. Raising taxes is EASY, compared to cutting spending. Lowering taxes is even easier. Cutting spending is almost politically impossible. I am prepared to contribute to digging us out of this hole by paying a MODERATE increase in taxes, but I want to see an even bigger cut in spending FIRST, because I don't think Congress or this administration has the guts to do it. Time and time again we've raised taxes on the promise of spending cuts which never materialize. As soon as the taxes get raised and the revenue looks better, people conveniently forget the other half of the promise, and the President (both parties are guilty of this to one degree or another) starts another spending program.
I, as a Citizen, am saying ENOUGH. I say no more debt limit raises, no more programs, no more 'initiatives' UNTIL they do the hard work and cut spending, and I don't mean JUST in defense (that's how Clinton got away with it).
I'll tell you what, I'll agree TODAY to a 2% tax increase, if they will repeal the 'earned' income tax credit (that the CASH PAYMENT 'refund' low income people get for taxes THEY NEVER PAID). EVERYONE HAS to pay SOME taxes to have "skin in the game"....
Some people completely fail to understand why capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than income.
If you work, your income taxes are paid in portion as your wages are paid. Your wages for hours worked are GUARANTEED by a plethora of laws and regulations. Ever see an employer miss payroll? Wonder why not? Because the state/fed is on them like a fly on poop. Your INVESTMENT (your labor) is 99.999 percent guaranteed.
Capital gains is totally different. 100 PERCENT of your INVESTMENT (which is what's left of your capital AFTER earning it, being taxed on it, ect.) is AT RISK; your can, and people do all the time, lose ALL of their investment - and frequently pay tax on the earnings WHILE THE VALUE OF THE INITIAL INVESTMENT IS GOING DOWN. I watched what meager mutual fund investments I made 5 years ago lose 50% of their value, while I still paid income taxes on the 'earnings'. That doesn't happen with normal wages.
The capital gains rate is low because it encourages INVESTMENT in business, which creates JOBS and OPPORTUNITY. Raise the capital gains rate too much, and what what happens to the stock market, venture capital, new business and new job creation.
My Daddy has always said, "I'd rather work for a rich guy than a poor guy, because I want some of that money to rub off on me...and if he manages to get richer in the process, good for him because he took most all the risk in the first place"....
I don't know where everyone gets the idea that the rich have all these 'loopholes', when most deductions decrease and go away as your income approaches $150K/yr. Warren Buffet takes little salary, but his NET WORTH increases enormously. Until/unless he cashes out he won't have those kinds of taxes to pay. AND, he gets to hire is bevy of tax lawyers at his companys' expense to find all the loopholes (and he obviously did that); only the OBSCENELY rich can afford that (and that's not those making $250k/yr)....
If you work, your income taxes are paid in portion as your wages are paid. Your wages for hours worked are GUARANTEED by a plethora of laws and regulations. Ever see an employer miss payroll? Wonder why not? Because the state/fed is on them like a fly on poop. Your INVESTMENT (your labor) is 99.999 percent guaranteed.
Capital gains is totally different. 100 PERCENT of your INVESTMENT (which is what's left of your capital AFTER earning it, being taxed on it, ect.) is AT RISK; your can, and people do all the time, lose ALL of their investment - and frequently pay tax on the earnings WHILE THE VALUE OF THE INITIAL INVESTMENT IS GOING DOWN. I watched what meager mutual fund investments I made 5 years ago lose 50% of their value, while I still paid income taxes on the 'earnings'. That doesn't happen with normal wages.
The capital gains rate is low because it encourages INVESTMENT in business, which creates JOBS and OPPORTUNITY. Raise the capital gains rate too much, and what what happens to the stock market, venture capital, new business and new job creation.
My Daddy has always said, "I'd rather work for a rich guy than a poor guy, because I want some of that money to rub off on me...and if he manages to get richer in the process, good for him because he took most all the risk in the first place"....
I don't know where everyone gets the idea that the rich have all these 'loopholes', when most deductions decrease and go away as your income approaches $150K/yr. Warren Buffet takes little salary, but his NET WORTH increases enormously. Until/unless he cashes out he won't have those kinds of taxes to pay. AND, he gets to hire is bevy of tax lawyers at his companys' expense to find all the loopholes (and he obviously did that); only the OBSCENELY rich can afford that (and that's not those making $250k/yr)....
Here's another analysis from an economist newsletter that I get daily:
Analysis: The reality is that people making over 1 million dollars pay a wide variety of tax rates – ranging from a low of perhaps 12% to a
high of 32%. It all depends on how the money is made and what is done with it. There are tax shelters that come into play and there are
provisions that direct money to investment. The assumption is that the wealthy can be taxed in the same way that most of the
population is but that is not the case. This is not money coming out of a paycheck every week or month. The wealthy can move their
money aggressively and most will. In the end the income from that tax would be far less than anticipated.
Analysis: The reality is that people making over 1 million dollars pay a wide variety of tax rates – ranging from a low of perhaps 12% to a
high of 32%. It all depends on how the money is made and what is done with it. There are tax shelters that come into play and there are
provisions that direct money to investment. The assumption is that the wealthy can be taxed in the same way that most of the
population is but that is not the case. This is not money coming out of a paycheck every week or month. The wealthy can move their
money aggressively and most will. In the end the income from that tax would be far less than anticipated.
Mr Brown
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I take issue with the notion that raising the capital gains tax rate will not result in a huge influx of tax dollars. It will, if the loopholes are closed. No matter how "aggressively" the rich can move their money, if there is nowhere to hide it, revenue will be paid. As far as capital gains being an investment, and thus taxed less, we as a society levy high taxes on vices, speculating on investments is nothing more than gambling and should be taxed accordingly. The idea that gambling is somehow better if done on Wall Street than on the Vegas strip is absurd. There is an assumption that loosening capital gains taxes would stimulate business, but if that's the case, how did businesses succeed back when the tax rate was much higher? The U.S. was a much stronger economic power then, but some people choose to ignore that.
The truth is that many issues have contributed to the mess that we are in, and until all the factors that have caused it are repaired, it will continue. We working people are sick and tired of it, but until we get people into the government that actually care about the middle class and working poor, we will bear the brunt of the unfair system. Politicians are so far removed from the realities of life in this country they may as well move Congress to the moon.
The truth is that many issues have contributed to the mess that we are in, and until all the factors that have caused it are repaired, it will continue. We working people are sick and tired of it, but until we get people into the government that actually care about the middle class and working poor, we will bear the brunt of the unfair system. Politicians are so far removed from the realities of life in this country they may as well move Congress to the moon.
+1Frog for president!!!!!!!!Didnt even watch it, dont need to. Im poor, so tax those rich folks all day, wont bother me a bit. As a member of the middle
-lower class, I feel others should pay for my needs. God bless the USA!
Oh, I'd agree that raising any/all of the tax rates will bring in more cash, at least for a year or two, but then the damage will be done and it will be hard to undo. There's plenty of places for the rich to move their money, they can just put it in the bank and hold it (no income, no taxes). They can even by gold as a hedge to inflation (no capital gain until they sell it) and there will be huge inflationary pressure, as companies raise prices to pass along the additional cost of making those profits (you don't think they are just going to stand by and make less, do you?) You ask how did businesses succeed when the rate was higher? Well, back then there wasn't a world market for labor, you didn't buy from china and the US companies had a lot more profit margin to work with. That margin has decreased over the last 25 years by a pretty large factor. We are not the ecomonic power we once were, because other countries have gotten pretty dang good at taking our technology and combining it with really cheap labor. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Capital gain go to 20%, but only in conjuction with equally painful, across the board (and that includes entitlements) spending cuts. Baby steps in the right direction, as everyone is going to have to adjust to the new reality.
Defiant
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Tax raises are a waste of time. NO AMOUNT OF TAX HIKES will pay for whats going out.
Even talking about is more about getting relected (democrats), they know.
Liberal politicians are so stupid talking about it is waste of time, watch Cavuto. They never had to work to pay for something.
The rest are crooks but they know that the fake titty is running out of silicone.
Even talking about is more about getting relected (democrats), they know.
Liberal politicians are so stupid talking about it is waste of time, watch Cavuto. They never had to work to pay for something.
The rest are crooks but they know that the fake titty is running out of silicone.
Mr Brown
Registered
Let the rich move their money to banks or gold and sit on it, eventually they will have to spend it or bequeath it, then taxes will be levied. Gold is worthless intrinsically, if the market fails, there goes the value of the investment. When that time comes, there should be no bailout from us (the working tax payers) they can take their licks. The problem with our economy is that it isn't a free-market capitalist one as it proclaims, it's a socialized hybrid that simply doesn't work.
I would contend that profit margins have decreased over time because they were over-inflated to begin with, they are simply finding their true level. Companies that raise prices purely to offset the shrinking profit margin will not last long in a leaner economic model.
We are in complete agreement over cutting spending across the board, it and revenue increase have to happen simultaneously. It's not a question of IF we need to do those things, it's a matter of WHEN. The sooner the better I think, this issue ain't gonna fix itself.....
That's not exactly the way it works. Supply/demand/price model - companies raise/set a price, demand rises/falls as buyers decide if it's worth it or not, and competition keeps the price 'fair'. However, companies with obvious advantages (size/efficiency - or an obvious advantage such as a company using cheap foreign labor) can alter the price relationship.
But, what I see in my experience is that companies that sell at too low a margin eventually fail because they aren't making enough, or make other poor finanical decisions (usually credit), and they frequently drag a few others down in the hole with them. Those companies that then remain who DID sell at a price point that allowed them to make a survivable margin then own the market and usually the price goes up as they have, for a while, weeded out the 'low price' idiots. I have watched 4-5 competitors in the last 5 years go down the toilet - they sold at prices that I KNOW didn't make sense, gave credit terms/risk that I KNEW were unsustainable, and while everyone like them and talked crap about us, they no longer exist, and stuck our common suppliers with a bunch of bad debt. Yet, while we are not large, we are still standing (52 years and counting), none of our suppliers have ever been paid late, and all our stuff is paid for. Why: Because we refuse to sell stuff without making a reasonable profit, and we don't take a lot of credit risk. However, in this 'immediate gratification - boom or bust' business mentality I see all the time, we are considered "old fashioned" - I just smile and keep going...
Walmart has won solely because they've had the advantage of products made with cheap labor (china) and have been big enough to cooerce fools into selling them at a loss (selling to Walmart is almost the kiss of death for a small/medium company, because they become too big and have too much power over your margins).
Back to the OP; Here is a good example of why socialism will NEVER work: It applies in education, economic policy, social policy, Tax policy - in just about every form of human endeavor:
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Mr Brown
Registered
I understand economic theory, and what you suggest holds true for the supply side economic model. It doesn't account for any other types of economy. There are many ways to skin a cat, obviously our system (supply-side/socialist hybrid) is failing. A pure free market economy might succeed, however our government is unwilling to try it and see (too big to fail ring a bell?) what the result is. Make no mistake, we have a socialist government and have had for years. Corporate welfare is still welfare, it just benefits the holders of said corporations as opposed to everyone else. I'm so tired of politicians ranting against socialism and welfare while they are handing out our money to the oil, arms, pharma, banking, insurance and farming industries. If they are going to hand our money out, I would just as soon they give it back to those of us who actually paid it......
Mr Brown
Registered
That means you can feel the warm sensation of having earned everything yourself, or is that warmth the tears of their laughter?
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