How long for oil to separate

[outlawbusa]

I understand that if used oil sits in an engine for a long storage period that this oil will go through a separation stage and one of these layers in the oil can be an acid like substance that can do damage to the engine internals.

My question is this: What is considered a long storage period and how long does it take used oil to go through a separation stage~?~

I am usually a stickler on changing my oil at least every 1200-1500 miles and never go over 1500. It's sitting at close to 1000 miles now but it's bugging me having the old oil in it sitting in the garage. I was riding it until right before Christmas when it got down into the teens...and still start it up and let warm up every couple weeks minimum.

Anyway, haven't got a chance to change the oil yet for the Winter and I'm kinda curious what they mean when they say long storage...I figure they are talking about 6 months or more before the oil starts a separation phase~?~

[Taylor]

This is just me and probally a waste of money but it brings me to ease knowing I do it, When my bikes get stored I dont care if there is 300 miles on the oil/filter, they get changed, they also get changed when they come out of storage, I dont play when it comes to maint. Gotta keep the oil company's in biz

I run dino-suzuki oil, always have, never had a problem, ever, so its really not that much money to change the oil, about 18 bucks a oil change, dealer hooks me up with big discounts on certain things

[aussiekeeper]

Oil doesn't separate from itself. It will, however, separate from water in the crankcase. If you ar storing for a period of time, you may want to change it. If you do, do not run the engine during storage, this will introduce more moisture into the crankcase.

[outlawbusa]

I'm going to change it when I get a chance this week anyway, It's just been bugging me since I haven't had time yet...I have just always been curious how long it takes before moisture or some sort of (possible) separation occurs~?~

I've read a lot of articles about this and have seen a few people post about the alleged separation on here, but no one that I have read has gone into any detail on the specific issue.

I would have to assume that if you start the engine and allow it to warm up to full operating tempurature that it would preserve the mixture (if it does in fact separate) and not allow moisture in~?~

(Also, I know oil has changed over the years...I haven't seen articles saying it does this in probably 20 years) Maybe just outdated facts...

As a matter of fact, now that I'm talking about it it's bugging me even more, LoL...I'll probably pop the fairings off tonight~!~

[Commuta_Busa]

Before starting the engine and ridding in the new 2010 season i would let all the old oil drain out over night then fill it up with new oil and go have fun.

[TommyGunn1300]

This is just me and probally a waste of money but it brings me to ease knowing I do it, When my bikes get stored I dont care if there is 300 miles on the oil/filter, they get changed, they also get changed when they come out of storage, I dont play when it comes to maint. Gotta keep the oil company's in biz

I run dino-suzuki oil, always have, never had a problem, ever, so its really not that much money to change the oil, about 18 bucks a oil change, dealer hooks me up with big discounts on certain things

why not just fire it up and let it idle for about 5-10 min once a week? i don't like letting mine sit. i feel its not good for it

[outlawbusa]

I'm really interested in the "technical" side of the oil break down

I located this on the net: full article:: Motor oil Breakdown

Here's some points I thought were more interesting...

The various acidic compounds cause corrosion of internal engine components, deposits, changes in oil viscosity, varnish, sludge and other insoluble oxidation products that can cause a performance and durability degradation of your engine over a period of time due to oil breakdown. The products of oxidation are less stable than the original base hydrocarbon molecular structure and, as they continue to be attacked by these acidic compounds, can produce varnish and sludge.

Boundary lubrication can be improved and oil breakdown reduced by the use of engineered additives blended in by the oil manufacturer.

When motor oil is heated beyond a certain temperature, it will start to degrade, even if there is no oxygen present.

Less costly oils are generally refined less and have a lower capability to prevent/reduce thermal degradation. Petroleum oils have a much lower operating temperature range, while premium quality synthetic motor oils have a very high operating temperature range and are much more resistant to thermal degradation and oil breakdown.

Petroleum oil that is new or kept clean by proper filtration is generally non-corrosive and will provide good protection against corrosion caused by the atmosphere. However, inside an engine, oil oxidation by-products will attack internal engine steel and bearing materials that are typically manufactured from aluminum, copper, lead and tin (a lead-tin flashing is used for break-in purposes on the few engines that use aluminum rod and main bearings).

Most gasoline and diesel engines use copper-lead main and connecting rod bearings. Water present, due to condensation caused by temperature and humidity changes or short stop and go driving where the engine never reaches the proper operating temperature, although still hotter than the ambient temperature, can also cause corrosion.

It is critical to operate an engine at normal operating temperature to prevent and burn off any water that is present by an evaporation process.

Quality motor oils have a corrosion inhibitor added. Corrosion inhibitors also vary in terms of effectiveness, quality and quantity.

[Mr Bogus]

why not just fire it up and let it idle for about 5-10 min once a week? i don't like letting mine sit. i feel its not good for it

loads the crankcase with moisture (by product of combustion) that in turn combines with other by products of combustion (sulfur etc) and create the acidic sludge and rust.

Also, keeping the fuel tank completely topped off keeps the tank dry as well and the fuel from oxidizing..

your oil level will actually increase over time running the engine for 10 minutes a week..

[outlawbusa]

I use the term acid because that's what I have seen in past articles, but apparently it's an oxidation that forms an acid like substance~!~

Obviously as stated before the moisture can be an issue also...

[Destin07]

I haven't been able to ride my bike much lately either. Maybe 1 a month or every 6 weeks. I still have it cranked once every 2-3 weeks just to run up to operating temperature. In all honesty it doesn't really matter. If you are that worried about it then crank the bike once every 30 days and let it run till the fan kicks on....Then just change the oil and filter when you pull it out for the next riding season. Think how long some cars sit on dealer lots or just cars in people's garages....I doubt there is anything to worry about

[Mr Bogus]

I use the term acid because that's what I have seen in past articles, but apparently it's an oxidation that forms an acid like substance~!~

Obviously as stated before the moisture can be an issue also...

the sulfur and moisture combine (sulfuric acid) you have it right.. The upside is that petroleum products are much lower in sulfur than they used to be..

Now something I was told 20 years ago,the big advantage to "recycled" motor oil.. all the sulfur is gone.. no idea if it is true or not..

[outlawbusa]

If you are that worried about it

I'm not too worried about it...I just can't sleep at night if the vehicles don't have fresh oil in them~!~

Actually, I change my oil so often it doesn't matter anyway...I've just always wanted an explanation of this acidy breakdown that occurs while we are all freezing and dreaming about riding one day again...Bogus has cleared that up a bit, thanks

It would probably take at least 6 months or longer before any actual acidic breakdown would occur, but I've never heard of an estimated time frame...

[cbat2210]

[outlawbusa]

Had a heat wave yesterday (35 degrees) so I went out for a 10 mile spin to keep things moving~!~

[SANDFLEA85]

Also, keeping the fuel tank completely topped off keeps the tank dry as well and the fuel from oxidizing..

QUOTE]


this may have been a good idea a few yrs ago but with E10, phase seperation occurs in as little as 30 days.its best to empty the tank completely if storing for extended time, being a boat owner with twin yamaha 200hpdi's hanging off the back,I take no chances when it comes to fuel and storage. tanks are emptied for the winter. there are nitemare stories when it comes to E10 and storing it.

also,the condensation buildup in the tank is at best,minimal,( a teaspoon if that and im talkiing a 200gal tank) you will have more water after phase seperation then you will with an empty tank.

[Mr Bogus]

Also, keeping the fuel tank completely topped off keeps the tank dry as well and the fuel from oxidizing..

QUOTE]


this may have been a good idea a few yrs ago but with E10, phase seperation occurs in as little as 30 days.its best to empty the tank completely if storing for extended time, being a boat owner with twin yamaha 200hpdi's hanging off the back,I take no chances when it comes to fuel and storage. tanks are emptied for the winter. there are nitemare stories when it comes to E10 and storing it.

also,the condensation buildup in the tank is at best,minimal,( a teaspoon if that and im talkiing a 200gal tank) you will have more water after phase seperation then you will with an empty tank.

I would tend to take issue with an "empty" tank.. every time the temp changes, air is drawn in or out of the tank.. With that air comes moisture...

if the tank is completely ventilated (cap open etc) then probably not much of an issue, but with a cap in place? yuk... This has to do with the "induction" of water via that air exchange, not the falling out of suspension water already in the fuel..

store an empty tank with just the cap in place and it will rust out..

Keeping the tank full reduces the amount of "breathing" the tank can do..

Diesels are particularly subject to moisture issues and ethanol "enhanced" fuels slightly less (more hygroscopic)

Ducati actually had to release a tech bulletin (is now in their manual) to their owners at one point about this.. (their tanks were unusually thin) They rusted out above the level of the fuel in the tank..

regardless, a couple 3 or 4 months is not going to make a lot of difference for most and a climate controlled garage virtually eliminates the issue completely.. (temp or humidity) I still store mine full all the same..

[Spkrdctr]

Modern synthetic oils will not seperate over a 6 month period unless you have a lot of water in your oil. They are made to handle pretty much everything you throw at it for a year. I'm talking about fairly clean oil though. Synthetic oil in a bottle will last 15 years without any problem.

[SANDFLEA85]

I would tend to take issue with an "empty" tank.. every time the temp changes, air is drawn in or out of the tank.. With that air comes moisture...

if the tank is completely ventilated (cap open etc) then probably not much of an issue, but with a cap in place? yuk... This has to do with the "induction" of water via that air exchange, not the falling out of suspension water already in the fuel..

store an empty tank with just the cap in place and it will rust out..

Keeping the tank full reduces the amount of "breathing" the tank can do..

Diesels are particularly subject to moisture issues and ethanol "enhanced" fuels slightly less (more hygroscopic)

Ducati actually had to release a tech bulletin (is now in their manual) to their owners at one point about this.. (their tanks were unusually thin) They rusted out above the level of the fuel in the tank..

regardless, a couple 3 or 4 months is not going to make a lot of difference for most and a climate controlled garage virtually eliminates the issue completely.. (temp or humidity) I still store mine full all the same..

I hear what you are saying,and used to store my boat with tanks full (with lots of stabilizer) because of the reasons you state. but have seen over the last couple of years ,since E10 was introduced many (not just a couple) guys who have done this have MAJOR issues in the spring (fuel sits for 3 or 4 months) having to change out entire fuel systems,failed injectors,fuel tanks eaten away (plastic). I now run the boat down to almost empty (as low as I can, was 45gal left this year) add stabilizer just to run through fuel system and empty tank and use for lawn equiptment. this will ensure no fuel problems after storage and have never found any water in the seperator after refill in spring.


also not a bad idea to fog the motor if your bike will be sitting a few months through the winter,this will prevent any condensation that may form from damageing your internal parts.

E10 is bad sh!t and they are trying to raise the level to E15 which will void any and all marine motor warrenties,not sure about car/truck/motorcycle but motors are motors,it cant be good for our bikes

[Mr Bogus]

I hear what you are saying,and used to store my boat with tanks full (with lots of stabilizer) because of the reasons you state. but have seen over the last couple of years ,since E10 was introduced many (not just a couple) guys who have done this have MAJOR issues in the spring (fuel sits for 3 or 4 months) having to change out entire fuel systems,failed injectors,fuel tanks eaten away (plastic). I now run the boat down to almost empty (as low as I can, was 45gal left this year) add stabilizer just to run through fuel system and empty tank and use for lawn equiptment. this will ensure no fuel problems after storage and have never found any water in the seperator after refill in spring.


also not a bad idea to fog the motor if your bike will be sitting a few months through the winter,this will prevent any condensation that may form from damageing your internal parts.

E10 is bad sh!t and they are trying to raise the level to E15 which will void any and all marine motor warrenties,not sure about car/truck/motorcycle but motors are motors,it cant be good for our bikes

You have some very good points..

the ethanol is a bag of worms for sure... I think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the fuel to start with (how saturated it already is)..

The other issue (and the big one) is the age of the vehicle you put it in..

When MTBE and Alcohol were both introduced to gas stations, there was a TON of trouble.. mostly with older vehicles and those with carbs..

The internals to the fuel pumps and carburetors were not up to the methanol or the MTBE (MTBE is now gone)..

it would also "clean" the fuel systems and load up filters etc..

also "(m)ethanol" is corrosive as all get out on some metals (untreated aluminum is terrible).. and I can see where some boats could be in big trouble (aluminum tanks are really common) never even thought about that aspect..

I would bet that the FI bikes should be pretty safe except from the "cleaning" ability of the E fuels.. (plugged filters)

Sure makes a mess when it happens..

[outlawbusa]

On the smaller scale of things...I have a 2nd season old chain saw that would not run after sitting for 2 months during the Summer.

They rebuilt the carb under warranty and blamed the ethanol for the issue, they said the gas evaporated out leaving the white residue on the diaphram from the ethanol which caused the issue.

They suggested to always run higher octane fuel, advising this will not solve future issues but it will not be as bad of an issue.