Congress Outta Touch




E Zurcher

Registered
I applaud the budget committe for finally coming up with a workable plan. Hopefully, Congress can get it passed without partisanship messing it up.

Interesting quote from Mr. Ryan...

"While federal workers are dedicated and hard-working, “we think it’s only right and fair that they pay something more toward their pensions, just like the hard-working taxpayer that pays for those pensions in the first place,â€￾ the committee’s chairman, Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., said at a news c...onference at the Capitol."

What he forgets is us Federal Workers PAY TAXES ALSO. That's right, just like the military, we get paid from the taxes we contribute to this country. JUST LIKE HIM.

What a MORON! If Congress got paid on what they accomplish and by meeting deadlines they would be paying us. Remember, come election day

"Throw The Bums Out!.
 

E Zurcher

Registered
Understood. Point is, federal workers pay both and his statement makes it sound like federal workers don't contribute through taxes and we do. We are also hard-working taxpayers.
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
Sorry, can't agree. When is Congress going to realize you can't become fiscally responsible on borrowed money? All they did was lift sequester and kick the can down the road (until after the elections, what a coincidence..). The truth is, that as bad as sequester was concieved (it was supposed to be so bad that it would FORCE the parties to negotiate), it is the ONLY TIME that we have acutally CUT spending. Was supposed to drag the GDP down some but it didn't seem show hurt that bad at the street level. So I'd rather see sequester continue rather than re-opening the pocket book, for some vague promise to 'revisit' it in the future. Everybody knows it's a ploy to get both parties past the election. I'm sorry, I'd rather see some real conservatives continue to fight rather than wuss out. We are mortgaging our children's total future on socialist programs which only further enslave them to the goverment. Not that the Republican side doesn't need to tighten their belts too.

I am somewhat shocked (yet not surprised) that they are going after veteran's retirement pensions. I won't draw a penny of my military retirement check until I'm 60; I'm pretty certain I won't see a penny of it.
 

Tufbusa

Track Coach / TufPoodle Coach
Registered
I disagree with the statement that Federal Employees pay taxes. No Public Employee pays taxes. Not federal, not State, not local employees pay taxes of any kind. The fact is that every dime a public employee receives is tax money someone from the private sector has paid into the system. The money any public employees returns to the system in the form of a tax is simply money that came from the tax coffer where it came from.

It's like dipping a bucket of water from a lake then pouring a little from the bucket back into the lake. Doesn't increase the amount of water in the lake, eh?:dunno:
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
I disagree with the statement that Federal Employees pay taxes. No Public Employee pays taxes. Not federal, not State, not local employees pay taxes of any kind. The fact is that every dime a public employee receives is tax money someone from the private sector has paid into the system. The money any public employees returns to the system in the form of a tax is simply money that came from the tax coffer where it came from.

It's like dipping a bucket of water from a lake then pouring a little from the bucket back into the lake. Doesn't increase the amount of water in the lake, eh?:dunno:
Maybe. However, you could also state that appears to inflate the wage of the public employee, as he has to give back to his employer a portion of what he's been given (earned)....

And: in the case of the military, it takes money out of the MILITARY budget, and basically transfers it into the GENERAL fund that pays SS, welfare, etc. etc...Soldier is paid out of wages appropriated for Defense budget, and pays back tax that goes into the non-military side...creative accounting...
 

StromBusa

Registered
We need to do some belt tightening, and get some jobs going, reignite the consumer engine. We need to reduce our debt, not kick the can down the road for the kids... The current administration is focused everwhere but job creation, and the Obamacare is nothing more than a big wet blanket on the economy. Silly "children" these days seem to have no clue about the realities of a mushrooming debt. Depression anyone?
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
If I were to play the Devil's advocate, here would be the reasons why I think the Republicans are going along:

1. "We've also got an election cycle coming. By passing this budget, we give less ammo for our Liberal opponents to use against us, and gets that out of the way so we can hammer them on Obamacare and everything else."

2. We don't want to be seen as carrying the most blame for 'shutting down the government' as we did the last time...see #1 above...

3. Maybe the economy is slowly getting better, and we don't need to drag it down by fighting this now.

4. We want out of sequester too; our military contributors got it in the shorts and if we don't help them, they are going to contribute to someone else. #1 above.

Sad thing is, NONE of these reasons except #3 resonates with the REAL conservative base of the party. To roll over now and fly a white flag creates more anger within the Party, and on the outside does not attract voters who think you have no backbone. If I ran my home and my business like Congress runs the nation, I've have been begging on the street corner a long time ago. Really, I think I ought to print money on my laser printer and start paying taxes with it - heck, that's what they are doing...

COME ON guys, show some gonads!
 

E Zurcher

Registered
Tuff

If you are self-employed good on ya. I hope you provide a valuable service that benefits the American people.

If not, I have one question for you. When your employer pays you for the work you do, does that money belong to you?

Federal employees perform services the government, through the will of the American citizens, deems necessary. Federal employees get compensated for the work they do, just like non-federal employees. They do not work for free and once paid for their service, that money belongs to them. The vast majority are compensated fairly, some way more and some way less. Our compensation is our money and we then pay taxes on it. We spend that money in our communities, in the private sector just you do. We buy houses, and cars and send our kids to college just like you do. We apply and compete for the jobs we get based on their education, experience and knowledge just like the civilian sector. Many of us hold security clearances the average citizen cannot qualify for because they have felony convictions, bankruptcies, police records, drug abuse history, mental health issues, etc. etc.

I am fairly compensated for the work I do and I assure you, I do pay taxes.

That's right, we earn our money, we get paid, that money is ours, we spend, we get taxed and some of that money goes back to our pay.

The flip side of that is the way things are going, hiring freezes, reduction in compensation, loss of cost of living adjustments and lack of job stability many federal workers are retiring early or moving to the private sector. This will have an impact on the quality of services provided by the government. So don't complain when you can't get the services or support you need or may need in the future. Then you will be asking your local, state and federal officials for the services we provide.

I applaud the "tea party" for wanting to cut government spending. I applaud the liberals for wanting to support public programs. The true answer is somewhere in the middle.

Extremists on either side do not have the solution. By their own nature they refuse to seriously consider the true solutions which lie somewhere in the middle.
 

dadofthree

Seasoned Beef
Donating Member
Registered
I don't keep up with it, but I imagine it's a political move to keep the president in the head lines vs. a budget fight as a distraction. I say kick all of the bums out and replace them with someone who looks out for the US and all her citizens.
 

Tufbusa

Track Coach / TufPoodle Coach
Registered
Tuff

If you are self-employed good on ya. I hope you provide a valuable service that benefits the American people.

If not, I have one question for you. When your employer pays you for the work you do, does that money belong to you?

Federal employees perform services the government, through the will of the American citizens, deems necessary. Federal employees get compensated for the work they do, just like non-federal employees. They do not work for free and once paid for their service, that money belongs to them. The vast majority are compensated fairly, some way more and some way less. Our compensation is our money and we then pay taxes on it. We spend that money in our communities, in the private sector just you do. We buy houses, and cars and send our kids to college just like you do. We apply and compete for the jobs we get based on their education, experience and knowledge just like the civilian sector. Many of us hold security clearances the average citizen cannot qualify for because they have felony convictions, bankruptcies, police records, drug abuse history, mental health issues, etc. etc.

I am fairly compensated for the work I do and I assure you, I do pay taxes.

That's right, we earn our money, we get paid, that money is ours, we spend, we get taxed and some of that money goes back to our pay.

The flip side of that is the way things are going, hiring freezes, reduction in compensation, loss of cost of living adjustments and lack of job stability many federal workers are retiring early or moving to the private sector. This will have an impact on the quality of services provided by the government. So don't complain when you can't get the services or support you need or may need in the future. Then you will be asking your local, state and federal officials for the services we provide.

I applaud the "tea party" for wanting to cut government spending. I applaud the liberals for wanting to support public programs. The true answer is somewhere in the middle.

Extremists on either side do not have the solution. By their own nature they refuse to seriously consider the true solutions which lie somewhere in the middle.
I understand your emotional need to defend your position as a public employee but you cannot argue that you produce a single dime of tax revenue. The money you receive is all generated by taking it from someone in the private sector. You cannot magically put some of it back where it came from and make it grow by calling it tax revenue. I'm in no way insinuating that you don't earn your pay.

My personal view of our current situation is more in line with the Tea Party that government has grown way to big and getting bigger by the day. Government is no different than the tax payer who's waist size has been steadily growing over the past century. If some degree of restraint is not shown both will become so obese that function becomes impossible.

By the way, I read the other day that the USA is now the second fattest (And getting fatter) nation on earth, only slightly behind Mexico. :shocked:
 

E Zurcher

Registered
No emotion, just fact so I guess we'll just disagree on this one.

The Tea party's govt shutdown cost the taxpayers an estimated 24 BILLION dollars. Government Shutdown Cost $24 Billion, According to Standard & Poor's | TIME.com They pushed for it even though they knew it wouldn't work. To me that is just flat out stupid. Some of them may pay the price come election time but due to the way our system works, probably not.


Interesting point.

Ted Cruz's "Fillibuster" and his reading of "Green Eggs and Ham" cost the american taxpayer 1.5 BILLION dollars. (Say it like Dr. Evil) That's 24/16=1.5 Time better spent doing his job and not preventing me from doing mine.

Sorry, I just cannot support that kind of stupidity. I support those who come up with real solutions to our problems and those folks are few and far between.

I reiterate "Throw the Bums Out!"
 

StromBusa

Registered
So the more govt & the more it "runs" the more money we make? We should just cancel out the private sector & let them handle it, they could send us some of the surplus then.
 

E Zurcher

Registered
How about the correct amount of Govt needed to run this country and keep it safe. The govt is made up of many agencies and functions. Some more useful than others. Some critical to support this countries needs some not so much.

The key is to rightsize government to the needs and desires of its citizens. This needs to be done smartly and not through sequester. Unfortunately most of our citizens have no idea what our govt agencies actually do for them until they are gone or screw up due to lack of funding. Then we reinvent the wheel at a greater cost because the American people demand their govt protect them. the first question they ask is "How can this happen?" and the refuse to hear the reasons why.

In Aug 2007 the Air Force mistakenly flew cruise missiles with nuclear warheads instead of dummy payloads installed. How can this happen was the question. There were many reasons but the root of it was a conventional war took all of the funding and attention away from the nuclear mission and after a few years of being ignored the folks who performed and supported that mission just didn't make it a priority so training, practice, knowledge and the quality of the people performing that mission declined.

We later spent hundreds of millions of dollars "Reinvigorating the Nuclear Enterprise" and now......

Same thing is happening today but now it's budget cuts and govt shutdowns. But as long as there is "Less Government" it's all okay!

Either way, some govt is needed and I fully agree it should be run efficiently. My agency does a real good job at that. The Department of defense does a decent job in most areas (yes there are still some huge problems with waste that are being addressed but it's a huge problem that will take many years to correct) until politicians jump in and mess it all up.

Here's an example that has been in the news lately.

The Air Force has been trying to retire A-10 warthogs for the last 20 years. They want to move to multirole aircraft and the A-10, although a cool plane has just one function and that is to kill tanks. We have proven thousands of times that a laser guided bomb from any aircraft can do the job just as well without putting pilots and equipment at risk. Congress will not allow the AF to retire these aircraft because the support, spare parts, contract maintenance happens to come from their districts. Therefore their districts lose the mission and the money that goes with it and they don't get re-elected. So the AF must continue to pay to maintain these aircraft even though they cannot afford it. Same goes for entire bases, ships, missions, programs..... The Air Force Chief of Staff puts forward a budget to Congress and the budget that gets approved looks nothing like they submitted. Oh and that money they asked for to maintain readiness of their troops with training and equipment they need goes to a useless plane.

We need to fix the problems with intelligent, and measured steps. Not with Tea Party tactics. We need smart politicians with usefull solutions who put the public good before their own reelection chances. Those are the people I vote for.
 

skydivr

Jumps from perfectly good Airplanes
Donating Member
Gotta tell you, the troops on the ground liked the warthog a lot better than a laser guided bomb, because they felt the pilot was in the fight WITH THEM....
 

dadofthree

Seasoned Beef
Donating Member
Registered
I'm confused about some of this but completely understand other parts. What does the Tea Party have to do with our current Government ? Could you please tell me how many in Congress are Tea Party Candidates.

I have to laugh at most of what you're saying sir. What you're doing and what should be transparent to anyone reading this , is screaming don't take my job. I worked for DOE for 25 years and well understand the waste of government programs. You talk about pay and benefits as though federal workers barely make it. That's the biggest joke I have ever heard sir. Federal employees are paid far, far beyond what people in the private sector doing equal work are paid and the benefits are out of this world. I won't even go into all the waste.

As far as your security clearance goes ...... no biggie. What I mean is you're not some sort of super human to acquire one.

Stop whining, you are very fortunate.
 

BusaWhipped

Donating Member
Registered
It's all part of turning the Land of Opportunity into the Land of Entitlement. Both sides are in on it, the left vs right thing is only to distract the people. Only then can the elite ruling class truly take over. We are rapidly becoming the country our forefathers fought against for freedom.
 

E Zurcher

Registered
Ok dadofthree,

Hey, no need to make this personal

I am fortunate but I also made my own way.

You forget the GS pay scale starts at 1 (17K) at the low end and goes to 15 (129K) at the high end. Some locales are higher. The generalization that all government workers are overpaid is just flat out wrong. The GS12-15s I know work their asses off in the service of their country and get paid well doing it. Most of them are service veterans and deserve more credit than you give them.

My job is pretty safe for the near future and I was minimally affected by the shutdown.

As the fat cats in congress played their ridiculous games I know of at least 4 GS-6 and lower people who do live paycheck to paycheck who were significantly affected by the shutdown. BTW our agency bent over backwards to help them out. Yes some federal workers barely make it.

I wouldn't qualify our benefits as "Out of this world". FERS is pretty lame compared to the private sector. New feds will have to pay in more. TSP (401K) does get agency matching from 1 to 5 percent and that's nothing to brag about compared to Lockheed martin or other defense contractors, and social security is counted in as part of our retirement. Federal health care is on par with the civilian sector when it comes to cost and is by no means a Cadillac health plan.

If you don't know who the tea party members of the House are well, sorry

Not bragging about my sec clearance either, not my intent, point is not everyone can get or maintain one and they are expensive for the employer to maintain. That makes it hard for agencies to hire qualified people.

Whining was not my intent, just a little political discourse.

BTW, I work closely with DOE and they are experiencing similar erosion of benefits and difficulty retaining good people to support national defense.

As for waste, I agree totally, my point is we need to be smart about how we deal with it, not just do across the board cuts like the sequester which actually wastes more money than it saves.
 

StromBusa

Registered
There is no "value" in Government, they blow every $ they get, and overspend to a fault... the all consuming blob. I never minded paying my taxes, but not for a D- result.
 

dadofthree

Seasoned Beef
Donating Member
Registered
Brother I've been there done that. Worked my butt off for 25 years working through every obstacle I could to make a tremendous amount of money for anyone with a highschool diploma. I was considered self managed because I was given troubled areas to correct and always did so easily. The budget and control people in the last area I worked in told management I was saving them over a quarter million a year doing work outside my scope, and yet I was laid off just 30 days before reaching retirement age. I had five weeks paid vacation and was about to get the sixth week, 11 paid holidays and worked four tens, 401K was matched up to 10%, you had to be a fool not to be in it up to that 10%. Not many private sector employees can retire between the ages of 50 and 58. I could go on for hours. Our government will never run anything as well as someone in the private sector, ever.

You can't name any, probably because there aren't any.

Don't make it personal because it's not.

Every contract / contractor is different.
 



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