The American Way...Which Way?
- Thread starter WarBaby
- Start date
I fail to see the short-sightedness of that statement. It is how I think this war should be brought to a halt.[/QUOTE]
Okay, let's say you raze the country of Iraq, or indeed the Middle East. You destroy all of the population, of which a vast minority are insurgents. A smoking, yawning crater is all that's left. You really think that would end everything? You make the problem not only worse, but you essentially bring it closer to home. The people who actively perpetrated 9/11, and the London Bombings, and the MAdrid bombings were not people who just showed up the day before from Iraq and the middle east and carried those actions out. They were here, and in Madrid, and more than likely, in London YEARS before the true planning happened, much less before the actions themselves took place. You think there aren't people here, and in Europe, and everywhere else on the planet who aren;t ready to do the same thing? Moreover, do you think there aren't people here who aren't on the fence as to how they feel, just waiting for something like that to push them over the edge and become violent enemies of the state as well? Doing something like destroying Iraq is going to do exactly that and push them to being recruited into the ranks of the terrorists you're purporting to wipe out, and reinforce the resolve the people who are already there, and cause them to recruit more to their cause.
Think about how after 9/11, the voluntary signing up of people into our military (not to mention the CIA, FBI training programs) swelled with people wanting to do something about, feeling a need to defend their way of life, to the point where the military could barely keep up with the people signing up (I was one of them, even though I knew I was medically precluded from joining).
It goes both ways. Not everyone will cower in fear, and many would be mobilized to do exactly what you're trying to intimidate them into not doing. The problem with a scorched-earth policy is that it will drive people, especially those not directly affected by the burn but who identify with the victims of the burn to action against those causing the destruction.
Plus, realize if you smoke out the entire middle east, the people who mobilize will be people already in the U.S and coalition states. Do you propose we burn these countries to the ground as well?
It just doesn't work... it's not a clean solution.
The people that get to go home every night to the comforts of family are so far removed from the actual battle that they have no idea what it is really like. They are quick, however to decide the fates of those who are on the front lines. If any politician knew they were putting their own child in harms way by prolonging the war, I think they would be a little more reluctant to do so.[/QUOTE]
I agree fully. If it all ended up on their doorstep tomorrow, their ideas as to how expendible people are and how much we can afford to understaff and underequip the men and women over there would 180 almost immediately.
The notion that our forces are in Iraq to stamp out the Islamic faith, and the fierce fighting that ensues as a result is directly attributable to our politicians, from the top down. Not one of them has stood up and said, "I have read the Koran, I understand that these terrorists are perverting the true teachings of Allah, that Islam is a religion of peace, will you true Muslims please help us Christians find and hold accountable these individuals who seek to harm us in your name....". They just jump on the ignorant, jingoistic bandwagon that says "We're American Christians, if you don't believe what we do you're heathens. We love God, so it's impossible for us to respect anyone else's view, to do so is un-Christian. Either you're with us or against us....."[/QUOTE]
You're right. The problem is that this is a message that is being broadcast across the globe, and a)the Muslims (not to mention the World) see it, and b) the leaders of these jihadist movements are able to jump on them with their own perverse jingoism and say, "see? they all think this way. They're all out to get you." And the image being thrown out there is definitely a false one. the problem is it's not being rescinded or taken down, especially by the people on high, and this reinforces not only the self-delusion the jihadists have, but again, provides more fodder for them to use when recruiting more into their ranks. Probably even more so in countries where they are smaller, minority communities and already feel, rightly or wrongly, the twinge of persecution and isolation.
Christianity is at its best simply one of many belief systems that people have subscribed to over the centuries. It's no more true than any other belief.[/QUOTE]
True. Please explain this to the fundamentalists on both sides. I'll pay you if you can do that. I seriously would.
If we are as you say, no more than animals with table manners, why do we feel the need to be placated by obvious lies?[/QUOTE]
The lies are merely another show of power, of force. And when the lies are being put forth with not only the might of the military behind them, but also with the caluclated presentation and propaganda with which they can be thrown out, people tend to accept them.
If we were simply animals, the theory that the biggest gorilla in the jungle runs the jungle would be acceptable to all people and we could smash the opposition as I suggested, leaving the rest of the world too afraid to complain about it. punk them all out, and stand there looking around at them, like this........[/QUOTE]
That's only within one tribe of Gorillas. If that Alpha comes across another tribe, then the leaders of both will rally their followers to defend the tribe itself. Again, rudimentary survival instinct. These people aren't looking at this as "hey this country is the strongest of OUR kind..." they're looking at us as "Hey... these people are the greatest threat against the survival of MY kind." It's a VERY different mindset.
Okay, let's say you raze the country of Iraq, or indeed the Middle East. You destroy all of the population, of which a vast minority are insurgents. A smoking, yawning crater is all that's left. You really think that would end everything? You make the problem not only worse, but you essentially bring it closer to home. The people who actively perpetrated 9/11, and the London Bombings, and the MAdrid bombings were not people who just showed up the day before from Iraq and the middle east and carried those actions out. They were here, and in Madrid, and more than likely, in London YEARS before the true planning happened, much less before the actions themselves took place. You think there aren't people here, and in Europe, and everywhere else on the planet who aren;t ready to do the same thing? Moreover, do you think there aren't people here who aren't on the fence as to how they feel, just waiting for something like that to push them over the edge and become violent enemies of the state as well? Doing something like destroying Iraq is going to do exactly that and push them to being recruited into the ranks of the terrorists you're purporting to wipe out, and reinforce the resolve the people who are already there, and cause them to recruit more to their cause.
Think about how after 9/11, the voluntary signing up of people into our military (not to mention the CIA, FBI training programs) swelled with people wanting to do something about, feeling a need to defend their way of life, to the point where the military could barely keep up with the people signing up (I was one of them, even though I knew I was medically precluded from joining).
It goes both ways. Not everyone will cower in fear, and many would be mobilized to do exactly what you're trying to intimidate them into not doing. The problem with a scorched-earth policy is that it will drive people, especially those not directly affected by the burn but who identify with the victims of the burn to action against those causing the destruction.
Plus, realize if you smoke out the entire middle east, the people who mobilize will be people already in the U.S and coalition states. Do you propose we burn these countries to the ground as well?
It just doesn't work... it's not a clean solution.
The people that get to go home every night to the comforts of family are so far removed from the actual battle that they have no idea what it is really like. They are quick, however to decide the fates of those who are on the front lines. If any politician knew they were putting their own child in harms way by prolonging the war, I think they would be a little more reluctant to do so.[/QUOTE]
I agree fully. If it all ended up on their doorstep tomorrow, their ideas as to how expendible people are and how much we can afford to understaff and underequip the men and women over there would 180 almost immediately.
The notion that our forces are in Iraq to stamp out the Islamic faith, and the fierce fighting that ensues as a result is directly attributable to our politicians, from the top down. Not one of them has stood up and said, "I have read the Koran, I understand that these terrorists are perverting the true teachings of Allah, that Islam is a religion of peace, will you true Muslims please help us Christians find and hold accountable these individuals who seek to harm us in your name....". They just jump on the ignorant, jingoistic bandwagon that says "We're American Christians, if you don't believe what we do you're heathens. We love God, so it's impossible for us to respect anyone else's view, to do so is un-Christian. Either you're with us or against us....."[/QUOTE]
You're right. The problem is that this is a message that is being broadcast across the globe, and a)the Muslims (not to mention the World) see it, and b) the leaders of these jihadist movements are able to jump on them with their own perverse jingoism and say, "see? they all think this way. They're all out to get you." And the image being thrown out there is definitely a false one. the problem is it's not being rescinded or taken down, especially by the people on high, and this reinforces not only the self-delusion the jihadists have, but again, provides more fodder for them to use when recruiting more into their ranks. Probably even more so in countries where they are smaller, minority communities and already feel, rightly or wrongly, the twinge of persecution and isolation.
Christianity is at its best simply one of many belief systems that people have subscribed to over the centuries. It's no more true than any other belief.[/QUOTE]
True. Please explain this to the fundamentalists on both sides. I'll pay you if you can do that. I seriously would.
If we are as you say, no more than animals with table manners, why do we feel the need to be placated by obvious lies?[/QUOTE]
The lies are merely another show of power, of force. And when the lies are being put forth with not only the might of the military behind them, but also with the caluclated presentation and propaganda with which they can be thrown out, people tend to accept them.
If we were simply animals, the theory that the biggest gorilla in the jungle runs the jungle would be acceptable to all people and we could smash the opposition as I suggested, leaving the rest of the world too afraid to complain about it. punk them all out, and stand there looking around at them, like this........[/QUOTE]
That's only within one tribe of Gorillas. If that Alpha comes across another tribe, then the leaders of both will rally their followers to defend the tribe itself. Again, rudimentary survival instinct. These people aren't looking at this as "hey this country is the strongest of OUR kind..." they're looking at us as "Hey... these people are the greatest threat against the survival of MY kind." It's a VERY different mindset.
People like this gal?
Politicians like this guy?
I agree totally Mr. Brown, it is disgusting...
jerseybusa
Registered
I am sorry War, but what does Iraq have to do with terrorism?
For the record I returned from an Army deployment in March and I spent a year in combat with the Marine Corps in the early 90's. I am still full time Army and will be until I die or retire.
<!--EDIT|jerseybusa
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For the record I returned from an Army deployment in March and I spent a year in combat with the Marine Corps in the early 90's. I am still full time Army and will be until I die or retire.
<!--EDIT|jerseybusa
Reason for Edit: None given...|1120913667 -->
jerseybusa
Registered
Were the christians right when they started the Crusades?
By the way there have not been too many wars that were not fought over religion.
I personnally can only think of the US Civil war as an example of a war that was not religiously motivated, since Christianity started.
By the way there have not been too many wars that were not fought over religion.
I personnally can only think of the US Civil war as an example of a war that was not religiously motivated, since Christianity started.
jerseybusa
Registered
There are no terrorists from Iraq. Most terrorists (such as Al Qaeda cells) would not side with Saddam Hussein because he was/is not a "good" muslim -- his VP was a Christian.
I am not sure of any known terrorists organizations coming from Iraq.
I am not sure of any known terrorists organizations coming from Iraq.
There is no love in war, war shows its face in many countries, whether it be in a tribal confrontation in Africa to our fight in Iraq. I believe war should be the last resort of resolving continent warfare. I personally don't believe we can win this war in the middle east. Do I think we should pull our troops out, I can't answer that. If it was my son or daughter I was looking down at in Arlington Cementary I would be very bitter, and resent the war. But then would my child's life be of great justice or in vain, only time would tell.
I recently have met a gentlman who served in Afgahstan and Iraq that said he wished we would drop a bomb and make a bigger ocean. His opinion is he will serve his country as long as his enlistment tells him. But he resents our government and the things he tells me that you never hear in the news media would literally blow your mind.
In closing let me say this, I believe for the most part American people or the public would rather not be at war. I think alot of intensed feelings come not just from the war, but our government is taxing us to death, it's outrageous, giving so much foreign aid when those go hungry here and sleep under bridges. Amercian's foot the bill for the world, and We the people of the democracy are feeling the effects of jobs leaving our country, to go somewhere else for smaller wages, to health insurance sky rocketing thru the roof, to being taxed on about everything we buy or even sale. I think the American people are tired of it all and would like to go back to more peaceful and economic and moral stablility.
American people WE are just that the people who have gave there all, and to all we have given. WE shall come thru this not sure how but we will and when we do remember those who have given the utmost there lives, so that we you and me and speak our thoughts, but moreso to live our lives in freedom. Remember the fallen and the price they paid. WE must press in and the victory will be ours....My prayers and condolences go out to the familys of soldiers fallen, thank you for my freedom....Mick
I recently have met a gentlman who served in Afgahstan and Iraq that said he wished we would drop a bomb and make a bigger ocean. His opinion is he will serve his country as long as his enlistment tells him. But he resents our government and the things he tells me that you never hear in the news media would literally blow your mind.
In closing let me say this, I believe for the most part American people or the public would rather not be at war. I think alot of intensed feelings come not just from the war, but our government is taxing us to death, it's outrageous, giving so much foreign aid when those go hungry here and sleep under bridges. Amercian's foot the bill for the world, and We the people of the democracy are feeling the effects of jobs leaving our country, to go somewhere else for smaller wages, to health insurance sky rocketing thru the roof, to being taxed on about everything we buy or even sale. I think the American people are tired of it all and would like to go back to more peaceful and economic and moral stablility.
American people WE are just that the people who have gave there all, and to all we have given. WE shall come thru this not sure how but we will and when we do remember those who have given the utmost there lives, so that we you and me and speak our thoughts, but moreso to live our lives in freedom. Remember the fallen and the price they paid. WE must press in and the victory will be ours....My prayers and condolences go out to the familys of soldiers fallen, thank you for my freedom....Mick
jerseybusa
Registered
Unfortunately for the poor and hungry at home there is no money in charity -- but war is big business for Haliburton (#### Cheney's company in case someone does not know that).
hate to break it to those few but other Countries problems are our problems as well. I prefer to fight over the pond then in Downtown USA. terrorism is here to stay and will not go away in my life time or yours. If trying to establish a democracy type of Gov't in Iraq curves the mindset, over time middle eastern countries will see the benefits of a Democratic Country. Actions speak louder then words, show them a better life and that will help change their way of thinking,,,,,,,except for the hardcore haters. Takes many years to change the affects of the mind controlling dictators who influence and condtion their fellow countrymen. By weeding out these dictators you begin the long road of restoration and peace.
Thanks to all for your comments.
It is a difficult matter and America is doing her best within the framework of her democratic structure, open country, and divided politics. Thanks especially to all voluntary military personnel who competently and bravely do what they are TOLD to do, often at supreme risk. I too was a volunteer in the 60's and the picture of Kerry/Fonda nearly made me puke but... they are/were Americans exercising their political freedoms although I thought it was waaayyyy too close to treason. She later alluded that she had little awareness of the impact of her deeds upon our troops under fire, nor of her contribution to the enemy's propaganda and political causes, and she is still widely and openly hated for her otherwise well-intended idealism. This type of naivety is still with us heavily among our citizenry, and to a lesser degree, even present in this thread (in my considered opinion).
My personal perspective has a component of duality--idealistically dovish as a peace-loving citizen and pragmatically hawkish as an ex-military commander of combat troops. I try to see both sides (and beyond), hence the reason for this thread.
There are no terrorists from Iraq. Most terrorists (such as Al Qaeda cells) would not side with Saddam Hussein because he was/is not a "good" muslim -- his VP was a Christian. I am not sure of any known terrorists organizations coming from Iraq.[/QUOTE]
I did not suggest that terrorists were from Iraq. Only that they were being drawn to Iraq to hammer western infidels. They are from all of the Muslim world and other countries, including America. It is a only matter of semantics whether they are exploding a bus of Iraqi cops, a bus of Israeli citizens, or a train full of Brits. It is still terrorism. They are not uniformed military soldiers. They are guerrilla terrorists.
Al Qaeda has a strategy for the Iraqi insurgency. You know that 9/11 mastermind, Osama bin Laden, his Chief of Operations in Iraq is Al Zarkawi, whom we are desperately hunting because he's running the insurgency there, spawned by Bin Laden. That is the connection between Iraq and terror. It is a direct connection admitted by Bin Laden!
Whether in Iraq or elsewhere, they believe that if they verbally invoke Allah's name during the killing of random, innocent non-combatants, it is okay with Allah and they will instantly go straight to paradise forever (where all the virgins are anxiously awaiting their studly arrival, `ya know
). It could be a tempting ideology if not for its profound stupidity. `Tis an ancient, radical interpretation of the Koran.
We Americans can stay in Iraq or leave Iraq but, if we leave, they won't quit. Bin Laden has said they will kill us anywhere they can find us. If they can't find us there, they will find us here. They already did on 9/11--caught us sleeping just like Pearl Harbor. Please keep your minds flexible about this treacherous enemy and try to rise above politics as we fight them. Next time, it could be a dirty nuke in Miami, Ebola in Dallas, or Ricin gas at the SuperBowl.
<!--EDIT|WarBaby
Reason for Edit: None given...|1120956415 -->
My personal perspective has a component of duality--idealistically dovish as a peace-loving citizen and pragmatically hawkish as an ex-military commander of combat troops. I try to see both sides (and beyond), hence the reason for this thread.
There are no terrorists from Iraq. Most terrorists (such as Al Qaeda cells) would not side with Saddam Hussein because he was/is not a "good" muslim -- his VP was a Christian. I am not sure of any known terrorists organizations coming from Iraq.[/QUOTE]
I did not suggest that terrorists were from Iraq. Only that they were being drawn to Iraq to hammer western infidels. They are from all of the Muslim world and other countries, including America. It is a only matter of semantics whether they are exploding a bus of Iraqi cops, a bus of Israeli citizens, or a train full of Brits. It is still terrorism. They are not uniformed military soldiers. They are guerrilla terrorists.
Al Qaeda has a strategy for the Iraqi insurgency. You know that 9/11 mastermind, Osama bin Laden, his Chief of Operations in Iraq is Al Zarkawi, whom we are desperately hunting because he's running the insurgency there, spawned by Bin Laden. That is the connection between Iraq and terror. It is a direct connection admitted by Bin Laden!
Whether in Iraq or elsewhere, they believe that if they verbally invoke Allah's name during the killing of random, innocent non-combatants, it is okay with Allah and they will instantly go straight to paradise forever (where all the virgins are anxiously awaiting their studly arrival, `ya know
We Americans can stay in Iraq or leave Iraq but, if we leave, they won't quit. Bin Laden has said they will kill us anywhere they can find us. If they can't find us there, they will find us here. They already did on 9/11--caught us sleeping just like Pearl Harbor. Please keep your minds flexible about this treacherous enemy and try to rise above politics as we fight them. Next time, it could be a dirty nuke in Miami, Ebola in Dallas, or Ricin gas at the SuperBowl.
<!--EDIT|WarBaby
Reason for Edit: None given...|1120956415 -->
OMG!
Then who in the heck are blowing up my fellow troops and innocent Iraqi people over there?
Are you serious?
jerseybusa
Registered
Do not take this wrong like I said I am in Now and eagerly awaiting getting deployed again to Iraq. Soi they are my brothers and sisters in arms, also.
Those people blowing people up in Iraq are Iraqi soldiers.
That is the way we as Americans have fought since the revolutionary War. It is called guerilla warfare. All special op groups fight like that (maybe not the suicide/homicide part -- but we have better traing and better resources). Not every bombing is a guy going to god. England was a few well timed well constructed bombs trying to create terror -- those individuals are "terrorists".
Mr War...
Terrorists do not have a religion -- if you define a terrorist I am sure you can find many instances of someone that is christian or Jewish doing the same stuff.
Is a group of virgins any different than the "pearly Gates"?
That virgin thing is not true. No where in the Koran does it say or allude to anything like that. That is the same type of propaganda that people have in many parts of the world have towards the Marine Corps -- When I would visit different countries some people thought that I needed to kill my first born or eat my mother's entrails to become a Marine.
I believe that we do not want to think that Iraq could have Special Op groups so we say that they are being lead by bin Laden and that every attack is a Suicide bomber. Just open the practical combat mind for a minute -- in VietNam was your intel ever not as correct as higher told you it was? Did you ever hear something that you found later or from being "in the bush" was not as the spin doctors said it was?
I am sure that you have.
Those people blowing people up in Iraq are Iraqi soldiers.[/QUOTE]
Yes, surely there are large numbers of hard-core Iraqi soldiers participating. However, US military prisoner interrogation reports have repeatedly confirmed the influx of Saudi, Syrian, Yemeni, Afghani, Pakistani, and other Arab "fanatical religious militants" into Iraq, primarily across the Syrian border, for the purpose of "inflicting terror" in their quest for martyrdom. These are not my words. Very recently, there was a major US military operation at the Syrian border to isolate, destroy or capture these trouble-makers and Abu Graib Prison has been heavily populated with non-Iraqi captives who were sub-catagorized as "guerrilla terrorists". Again, not my words.
Terrorism, by definition, is the use of violence where one would reasonably expect harm to innocent civilians. This is distinguished from a "military" action, where the use of violence is not reasonably expected to harm innocent civilians. A "guerrilla" action is violence conducted by a non-governmental entity. Al Qaeda/Taliban is no longer a governmental entity since we removed them from power in Afganistan and Saddam's dictatorship is no longer a government. Viola!
That virgin thing is not true. No where in the Koran does it say or allude to anything like that.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it was in the Koran. I said it is "an ancient, radical interpretation of the Koran. That definition came from other (presumably peaceful) Muslims. Who would know the Muslim religion better than other Muslims?
Terrorists do not have a religion -- if you define a terrorist I am sure you can find many instances of someone that is christian or Jewish doing the same stuff.[/QUOTE]
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"--semantics, depending on your point of view. Most Arab terrorists claim the Muslim religion. Who am I (or you) to say they are not of the Muslim religion?
Is a group of virgins any different than the "pearly Gates"?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but I see your point.
Did you ever hear something that you found later or from being "in the bush" was not as the spin doctors said it was?[/QUOTE]
Of course that is likely. It is equally likely that the preponderance of evidence from our military spokesmen and from various testimonials during recent congressional hearings that the info I have presented above is heavily laden with facts. There is always disinformation and misinformation during armed conflict. Truth is the first casualty of war. It is up to each of us to sort through all available information and determine what is, and what is not, truth.
I respect your military service and your expressed views. May good fortune follow your next deployment. Thank you.
<!--EDIT|WarBaby
Reason for Edit: None given...|1121040638 -->
Yes, surely there are large numbers of hard-core Iraqi soldiers participating. However, US military prisoner interrogation reports have repeatedly confirmed the influx of Saudi, Syrian, Yemeni, Afghani, Pakistani, and other Arab "fanatical religious militants" into Iraq, primarily across the Syrian border, for the purpose of "inflicting terror" in their quest for martyrdom. These are not my words. Very recently, there was a major US military operation at the Syrian border to isolate, destroy or capture these trouble-makers and Abu Graib Prison has been heavily populated with non-Iraqi captives who were sub-catagorized as "guerrilla terrorists". Again, not my words.
Terrorism, by definition, is the use of violence where one would reasonably expect harm to innocent civilians. This is distinguished from a "military" action, where the use of violence is not reasonably expected to harm innocent civilians. A "guerrilla" action is violence conducted by a non-governmental entity. Al Qaeda/Taliban is no longer a governmental entity since we removed them from power in Afganistan and Saddam's dictatorship is no longer a government. Viola!
That virgin thing is not true. No where in the Koran does it say or allude to anything like that.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it was in the Koran. I said it is "an ancient, radical interpretation of the Koran. That definition came from other (presumably peaceful) Muslims. Who would know the Muslim religion better than other Muslims?
Terrorists do not have a religion -- if you define a terrorist I am sure you can find many instances of someone that is christian or Jewish doing the same stuff.[/QUOTE]
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"--semantics, depending on your point of view. Most Arab terrorists claim the Muslim religion. Who am I (or you) to say they are not of the Muslim religion?
Is a group of virgins any different than the "pearly Gates"?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but I see your point.
Did you ever hear something that you found later or from being "in the bush" was not as the spin doctors said it was?[/QUOTE]
Of course that is likely. It is equally likely that the preponderance of evidence from our military spokesmen and from various testimonials during recent congressional hearings that the info I have presented above is heavily laden with facts. There is always disinformation and misinformation during armed conflict. Truth is the first casualty of war. It is up to each of us to sort through all available information and determine what is, and what is not, truth.
I respect your military service and your expressed views. May good fortune follow your next deployment. Thank you.
<!--EDIT|WarBaby
Reason for Edit: None given...|1121040638 -->
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