The American Way...Which Way?

[WarBaby]

This post is not just about Iraq (I know there is a section for that). It is more about Americans.

The War in Iraq has become a Muslim fundamentalist-terrorist insurgency. This has happened before and insurgencies can, and do, last for years. Why did the terrorists resort to an insurgency? Because they can't stand up to us militarily--it's the most effective way for them to generate maximum mayhem for their cause...and a direct path to their "heaven" replete with dozens of virgins and other glories for each martyr who enters there. But, many Americans are becoming weary of our on-going anti-terrorist/counter-insurgency efforts and want us to pull out of Iraq which, ironically, is precisely part of what the enemy is trying to achieve. Is this difficult to understand?

Our enemies know that large numbers of comfortable Americans have very limited tolerance for protracted, bloody combat and they USE THAT AGAINST US since we often demonstrate a huge lack of resolve to complete our military/political objectives. Remember Vietnam and Somalia...? Both of those abortions were strategic failures because many "righteous-minded" Americans yelled loud and long about the immorality of warfare. Yeah, war is immoral. So was 9/11 and the British terror bombings yesterday. Our world is immoral. It's called REALITY!

I would guess that many members here will disagree with me, and that's part of America's greatness, but it is very clear to me that if our resolve against terrorism fails, terrorism wins. Is that what America wants? I can't believe it is but I just might be very wrong about the typical American's intelligence, political savvy, warfare, and courage. Am I?

It seems to me that we either brutally interdict terrorism now, wherever we can find it, or it will find us on our own soil with increasing devastation and frequency. Do we have to see the arrival of blood baths at our local malls for our resolve to strengthen. Is that what it takes to keep our country focused against this enemy? Is the allure of our personal passions and daily pursuits blinding too many of us?

I refuse to run from my enemies but I do prefer to engage them on my terms. Is that too aggressive? That is what Bush is trying to do--going after and destroy them anywhere. Or, should we patiently ("morally") wait and hope that our school buses don't start exploding?

If I were young enough to be in uniform again, I would certainly get my share of the wanton, murderous bastards and send the idiots straight to their waiting virgins! Does that make me your warmongering enemy or does that make me your allied American?

I trust that some of you can help me understand why there is soooo much American opposition to finding and neutralizing (yes, killing with prejudice) our sworn enemies.

Thank you.



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[WarBaby]

I apologize. I meant to post this in the Random section. Moderators, please move it for me. Thanks

 

[VaBusa]

NO American opposition from me...you're dead on warbaby...if anything, we need to step up our presence, be even more vigilant in the cause...

I hate that we have to send ANY troops to that region of the world, but, I do fear that if we back down, they'll just be hitting us closer to home.  I don't think for a minute that they aren't planning to do that anyway...they want Americans DEAD...they repeatedly state that even the strikes in other countries are aimed to deter support for what the U.S. has undertaken...

I come from a military family.  Mom and Dad in the Air Force; Dad was in Vietnam when I was born.  Grandfather and Uncle in the Navy.  Cousins in the Air Force and Army.  Brother-in-law was part of the Special Forces while serving in the Air Force and had two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan post 9/11.  One of my cousins is heading to VA as I type to see his family before he departs for Iraq in a few weeks.  I'm like many Americans affected by family members being sent abroad, and sometimes I wonder if that's where at least some of the cynicism is coming from...is it people that are so displaced from the sacrifices so many are making that just don't get it?  

 I'm asking, I don't pretend to know that answer...

It's not a place any Americans want to be in, and we all hate to see our loved ones going to that region of the world, but the alternatives are so incredibly grave if we turn our backs...

I support our cause...I sure hope most Americans feel that way because so many are giving their lives for our right to sit here and talk about it...

 

[ike]

I agree.

 

[thrasherfox]

Moved to Random (hope I did it right

)

 

[VaBusa]

Moved to Random (hope I did it right

)

Ahhh...a moderator in training...

You know I luv ya!!!

 

[Mr Brown]

Here's my .02:
I think that the disasters in Vietnam and Somalia were not due to Americans here at home bitching about the morality of war, they, and the current mess in Iraq were drawn out far too long because of the indecisiveness of politicians. The same is what will wind up happening in Iraq. I am very much anti-war in this instance, simply because it is unwinable as it is being fought. Established military doctrines will NEVER be able to defeat the guerilla tactics favored by people who are trying to repel an invading force. If we are bound and determined that this war is because the Iraq people need our help in attaining freedom, we should supply them with weapons and aid, but that is all. IMO, no American man or woman should die for an Iraqi's right to vote. This is their problem, let them sort it out. There are plenty of equally corrupt dictators around the world if freedom is truly the reason we are involved in this mess.
If our troops are to be placed in harms way, then I believe that the only way to be victorious is to raze the entire country, and start over. This d!cking around, not really wanting to commit enough resources to complete the task is what cost us so dearly in prior conflicts. War is not a nice business, not for the faint hearted, so politicians should have no input, other than to outline the goals required. Allow the profesional warmakers to handle the day-to-day logistics, just tell them what you want done and give them the things they need to do it. Get it over with and get our troops back home. When did we change over from being the protector of others' way of life, the solace to which persecuted people could run, into a nation which forces its way of life onto others, simply because we deem them worse off than us? We need to pay more attention to the problems we have here at home, sort out some major social issues that we have before we export our way of life through force.

 

[Mr Brown]

Moved to Random (hope I did it right

)

You moved it while I was replying, it wouldn't let me post. I figured that was what was going on and cut-n-pasted, so it worked out good.
Now, quit moving stuff around, just cuz you got mod powers now!!!!!!!

 

[WarBaby]

Mr Brown, you have worthy points but... we are there now, regardless of the initial rationale for going, and the terrorists are coming out of the wood work to kill our troops. As I indicated earlier, this thread was not meant to be about Iraq, but since the fanatics are presenting themselves to us, it seems a superb opportunity to adapt our tactics to hunt and kill or imprison as many as possible. The terrorists are like minded in their devotion to KILLING AMERICANS anywhere. They are non-discriminating murderers. This scourge will continue to breed at our peril if someone doesn't stop them. Who else will stop them if we don't? Will everything be hunky-dory with the killers if we call our troops home? Will O'sama say "That's cool! There's no more problem with the American infidels. They've gone home"? Or will terror cells continue their sworn missions of destroying all infidels?

Many people have criticised our Iraqi presence as "drawing terrorists into the country". Precisely! I call that military opportunity. They are congregating there. How could we get them in one place any better?

 

[Mr Brown]

I agree totally, that's what I meant by letting the professional soldiers decide on how best to accomplish the goal. I'm sure if you left the decision up to a few Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, the whole thing would be over in a couple of months, there would be no terrorists left, and our loved ones would be back home. If the infrastructure of Iraq is destroyed in the process, all I can say is "Sucks to be them". I believe in outlining your goals, acheiving them in a timely fashion and moving on.

 

[WarBaby]

Thanks for your input.

By the way, I was at LA International Airport in `68 on mid-tour leave from a nasty Asian DMZ when a hippie couple crossed my path. She spat on me, called me a "baby-killer" and he also started to spit. I stood and told them that I didn't hit women but he was definitely not a woman. He wisely decided not to spit. It just illustrates the charged social environment back then that I referred to earlier. People were REALLY screaming at their politicians and, well, you know politicians tend to eventually yield to their constituents or lose their positions.

 

[Mr Brown]

Thanks for your input.

By the way, I was at LA International Airport in `68 on mid-tour leave from a nasty Asian DMZ when a hippie couple crossed my path. She spat on me, called me a "baby-killer" and he also started to spit. I stood and told them that I didn't hit women but he was definitely not a woman. He wisely decided not to spit. It just illustrates the charged social environment back then that I referred to earlier. People were REALLY screaming at their politicians and, well, you know politicians tend to eventually yield to their constituents or lose their positions.

I agree that many people were emotionally charged during that era, I find it disgusting that people were so quick to attack thse that were trying to better their way of life and serve their country. Politicians always have been, and prolly always will be only concerned with getting themselves re-elected, not serving the people who elected them in the first place. Until we demand honesty and accountability from our politicians, at ALL levels, we will continue to have situations that we are all to familiar with.

 

[bronc3]

I'm with you man.

 

[RandomNickname]

I'm sure if you left the decision up to a few Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, the whole thing would be over in a couple of months, there would be no terrorists left, and our loved ones would be back home. [/QUOTE]

If only it were that easy; the problem with this view is that it is sadly short-sighted.

The reason being that part of the reason of the that the terrorists are crawling out of the woodwork is that there is a perceived, whether rightly or not, idea where the forces on the ground in Iraq (and elsewhere) are there for the purpose of stamping out the Islam faith, and all of those who follow it. While it's not what we are there for (despite what some people on TV would say, more on that in a bit), the perception of that, smacks horribly of the medieval Crusades, which tend to be a bit of a sore spot for people in that part of the world... mainly because that was a case where they were fighting for their religion's and their people's survival.

Unfortunately, having people going in full-bore and razing the country as someone pointed out as a "solution" would do nothing except exacerbate this feeling, and draw even more people off of the fence (and even out of the peaceful camp) and into to realm insurgency themselves. That's the thing about martyrdom, it tends to breed fanatacism. The statement "more powerful dead than alive" is not a misnomer.

Add to that pundits and those of questionable sanity insisting -- from the American/Coalition standpoint -- that this is a religious war, that the Muslim faith is one that needs to be taken down because it is one of violence, etc, and it does little to help the situation, but simply backs the mindset that the radicals already have, and helps to foster it more in the minds of people who weren't radicals in the past.

The problem in going in even more full-bore is that we, human beings, are essentially animals with table manners and speech, and as such, when backed into a corner, we lash out, for the perception of survival is on the line. Unfortunately backing down also reinforces the view that what they are doing has merit, and is having an effect, so they continue as well. Is there a happy medium? I think that's what is being attempted, but failing miserably.

Honestly, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

[Mr Brown]

I'm sure if you left the decision up to a few Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, the whole thing would be over in a couple of months, there would be no terrorists left, and our loved ones would be back home.

If only it were that easy; the problem with this view is that it is sadly short-sighted.

The reason being that part of the reason of the that the terrorists are crawling out of the woodwork is that there is a perceived, whether rightly or not, idea where the forces on the ground in Iraq (and elsewhere) are there for the purpose of stamping out the Islam faith, and all of those who follow it.  While it's not what we are there for (despite what some people on TV would say, more on that in a bit), the perception of that, smacks horribly of the medieval Crusades, which tend to be a bit of a sore spot for people in that part of the world... mainly because that was a case where they were fighting for their religion's and their people's survival.

Unfortunately, having people going in full-bore and razing the country as someone pointed out as a "solution" would do nothing except exacerbate this feeling, and draw even more people off of the fence (and even out of the peaceful camp) and into to realm insurgency themselves.  That's the thing about martyrdom, it tends to breed fanatacism.  The statement "more powerful dead than alive" is not a misnomer.

Add to that pundits and those of questionable sanity insisting -- from the American/Coalition standpoint -- that this is a religious war, that the Muslim faith is one that needs to be taken down because it is one of violence, etc, and it does little to help the situation, but simply backs the mindset that the radicals already have, and helps to foster it more in the minds of people who weren't radicals in the past.

The problem in going in even more full-bore is that we, human beings, are essentially animals with table manners and speech, and as such, when backed into a corner, we lash out, for the perception of survival is on the line.  Unfortunately backing down also reinforces the view that what they are doing has merit, and is having an effect, so they continue as well.  Is there a happy medium?  I think that's what is being attempted, but failing miserably.  

Honestly, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see the short-sightedness of that statement. It is how I think this war should be brought to a halt. The people that get to go home every night to the comforts of family are so far removed from the actual battle that they have no idea what it is really like. They are quick, however to decide the fates of those who are on the front lines. If any politician knew they were putting their own child in harms way by prolonging the war, I think they would be a little more reluctant to do so.
The notion that our forces are in Iraq to stamp out the Islamic faith, and the fierce fighting that ensues as a result is directly attributable to our politicians, from the top down. Not one of them has stood up and said, "I have read the Koran, I understand that these terrorists are perverting the true teachings of Allah, that Islam is a religion of peace, will you true Muslims please help us Christians find and hold accountable these individuals who seek to harm us in your name....". They just jump on the ignorant, jingoistic bandwagon that says "We're American Christians, if you don't believe what we do you're heathens. We love God, so it's impossible for us to respect anyone else's view, to do so is un-Christian. Either you're with us or against us....."
Christianity is at its best simply one of many belief systems that people have subscribed to over the centuries. It's no more true than any other belief.
If we are as you say, no more than animals with table manners, why do we feel the need to be placated by obvious lies? If we were simply animals, the theory that the biggest gorilla in the jungle runs the jungle would be acceptable to all people and we could smash the opposition as I suggested, leaving the rest of the world too afraid to complain about it. punk them all out, and stand there looking around at them, like this........

 

[cache]

where are the clouds?

 

[Mr Brown]

where are the clouds?

Sorry, I'll try harder next time.......

 

[Tree]

I am only going to make one post on "terrorists" and that will be it.

The only way to stop it is to literaly wipe out that entire portion of the world. Not what I like, or what I want to see. But when you have 10 year old kids chearing in the streets after 9/11 your next generation terrorists are all ready there.

Short of that. We are fighting a conventional war against a "Holy" war. You can't do that. You have to fight their Holy war with a Holy war. What I mean is you coat the cities with pigs blood and bomb them untill nothing moves. Pigs are "dirty" and they can't get into their version of heaven if they are dirty. Use their own tactics against them.

I'm tired of our people being over there. Enough all ready. When they commit an act of terrorism on US soil. Flatten one of their cities. If we have to do one in each country, then so be it.

I hate the media and when 1 soldier dies it's all over the news. But most don't remember Viet Nam and hundreds died every day. All most wanted to do is complain about it, and discrace soldiers when they came home.

Why is it when we are at war, people respect soldiers and veterens. BUT, when there is nothing much going on to the public eye, they are second class citizens. Ignored by most.

Enough from me, it only makes me angry, and every one knows you shouldn't type angry.

Later,

Steve
HHC 1st Batallion 22nd Infantry
Fort Drum, NY
'86-89

 

[Cecil_Stringer]

Saw this on another board.... Semper Fidelis.

This was sent to me..thought our military peeps might like it!

One of my sons serves in the military. He is still stateside, here in California. He called me yesterday to let me know how warm and
welcoming people were to him, and his troops, everywhere he goes, telling me how people shake their hands and thank them for being willing to serve and fight, for not only our own freedoms but so that others may them also.
But he also told me about an incident in the grocery store he stopped at yesterday, on his way home from the base. He said that ahead of several people in front of him stood a woman dressed in a burkha.
He said when she got to the cashier she loudly remarked about the US flag lapel pin the cashier wore on her smock.

The cashier reached up and touched the pin, and said proudly, "Yes, I always wear it and I probably always will." The woman in the burkha then asked the cashier when she was going to stop bombing her countrymen, explaining that she was Iraqi.

A gentleman standing behind my son stepped forward, putting his arm around my son's shoulders, and nodding towards my son, said in a calm and gentle voice to the Iraqi woman: "Lady, hundreds of thousands of men and women like this young man have fought and died so that YOU could stand here, in MY country and accuse a check-out cashier of bombing YOUR countrymen. It is my belief that had you been this outspoken in YOUR own country, we wouldn't need to be there today. But, hey, if you have now learned how to speak out so loudly and clearly, I'll gladly buy you a ticket and pay your way back to Iraq so you can straighten out the mess in YOUR country that you are obviously here in MY country to avoid."
Everyone within hearing distance cheered!
Patriotism is not a Fad message. It's what we stand for.

Although I'm latin by decent, I'm AMERICAN by birth!

GOD BLESS AMERICA and OUR SERVICE PEOPLE!

 

[Krieg]

I say we should take every country in the middle east and make them US territories. We should then restructure them with democratic governments and set up appropriate schools for the children of these countries rather than the hard core Muslim schools that teach hatred for the infidel.