Tell the NTSB to stay out of our states!

[captain]

it has everything to do with Rights....rights derive from property and I own myself and you nor no man have a claim to my person...the state and federal govt have absolutely no rights they only have privileges and only those that you and I allow it to have...

fair enough, the property of the highway is owned by the citizens... If you will look at Steve's post again you will see he said you can do what you want on your own property but as soon as you hit public streets the rules change.

You have no right to drive, its a privilege in each state...

 

[S4L]

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state, usually under the control of a single political person, faction, or class, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[2] Totalitarianism is generally characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism (where ordinary citizens have less significant share in state decision-making) and ideology (a pervasive scheme of values promulgated by institutional means to direct most if not all aspects of public and private life).[3]

Totalitarian regimes or movements stay political power through an all-encompassing propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that is often marked by personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism.

- Wikipedia.

Just a little closer...Cloooosssserrrrrr now....

When will people wake the .... up!? lease:

 

[Statman]

I see truama daily at the hospital. I have ALWAYS worn a helmet and my seatbelt. I think anyone who doesn't is a fool. Just dont think its the goverment's place to tell me I have to if I'm a competant adult. As far as the "cost to society" arguement, you have a point ... But where does that train of thought end? By that line of thinking we should ban motorcycles entirely... and guns... and alcohol... oh wait, we tried that one already...

 

[Vonderbach]

The guy above me is pretty dang smart. And he's from Odessa...my hometown. Sup!

 

[red1100cc]

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state, usually under the control of a single political person, faction, or class, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[2] Totalitarianism is generally characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism (where ordinary citizens have less significant share in state decision-making) and ideology (a pervasive scheme of values promulgated by institutional means to direct most if not all aspects of public and private life).[3]

Totalitarian regimes or movements stay political power through an all-encompassing propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that is often marked by personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism.

- Wikipedia.

Just a little closer...Cloooosssserrrrrr now....

When will people wake the .... up!? lease:

are you an ABATE member? if not you should be.
for those that don't know what abate is the origonal acronym means=
A Brotherhood Against Totalitarian Enactments.





the financial burden is a b.s. arguement, i am not a financial burden. and where in the constution does it say " you have the RIGHT, unless it cost too much!"?

no you are way off S4L, motorcycles make up less than %6 of accident on our roadways. wanna see the study/studies?


it IS a states rights issue. i have already made my 3 phone calls to Washington. how about yall??
stand up for your rights. call washington and speak with your reps. let them know how you feel.
if i wanna ride naked with a duck on my head i will! its my right as a Wyominite and a biker.


join your local motorcycle rights org. (MRO), and the Motorcycle Riders Foundation (MRF), as well as the National Coalition Of Motorcyclist (NCOM). get envolved, educate yourself, and stand up for your rights.

 

[rmodel65]

fair enough, the property of the highway is owned by the citizens... If you will look at Steve's post again you will see he said you can do what you want on your own property but as soon as you hit public streets the rules change.

You have no right to drive, its a privilege in each state...

thats a bunch of statist clap trap...there is a right to travel and the mode you use matters not...like arguing a printer isnt protected under free speech by a type press or a type writer is...

Article 42 of the Magna Carta:

It shall be lawful to any person, for the future, to go out of our kingdom, and to return, safely and securely, by land or by water, saving his allegiance to us, unless it be in time of war, for some short space, for the common good of the kingdom: excepting prisoners and outlaws, according to the laws of the land, and of the people of the nation at war against us, and Merchants who shall be treated as it is said above.


Aritcles of Confederation also enumerated the right: Article IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this union, the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States; and the people of each State shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other State, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any State, to any other State, of which the owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any State, on the property of the united States, or either of them.


the right to travel is also cited under the 14th amendment even though it is un enumerated....it is also a right retained by the people under the 9th amendment

just because a state converts a right into a privilege doesnt make it law

 

[captain]

I love how you guys go all the way back to the beginning to pull up your constitutional rights but yet want to have your medicare just in case something happens... Back on the days these articles were written the govt didn't give you a check if you were disabled... you can't have it both ways... You want to ride naked at the speed of light and base it on your constitutional right FANTASTIC, then you get the same help that the govt would have given you then NOTHING!

Pick or choose, if you want to crash great but don't tell me in the same breath that you think the citizens should flip the bill for what you consider your freedom....

As I stated this isnt about freedom this is about you costing the rest of the country money because of a bonehead move. Sign a waiver so you can have it all your way but don't expect me to pay..

 

[rmodel65]

where did i say i wanted medicare?

 

[S4L]

are you an ABATE member? if not you should be.
for those that don't know what abate is the origonal acronym means=
A Brotherhood Against Totalitarian Enactments.

No, I don't think I hold very widely accepted views anyway Me bein' political probably wouldn't be a good thing.

the financial burden is a b.s. arguement, i am not a financial burden. and where in the constution does it say " you have the RIGHT, unless it cost too much!"?

no you are way off S4L, motorcycles make up less than %6 of accident on our roadways. wanna see the study/studies?

I don't write very clearly sometimes. I don't mean in a statistical sense of overall financial burden, but as a relation of motorcycle accidents to financial costs. Statistically, motorcycle accidents cost more than car accidents on a case by case basis. For every 100 car accidents, maybe one is serious. For every 10 bike accidents, maybe one is serious.

I love how you guys go all the way back to the beginning to pull up your constitutional rights but yet want to have your medicare just in case something happens... Back on the days these articles were written the govt didn't give you a check if you were disabled... you can't have it both ways... You want to ride naked at the speed of light and base it on your constitutional right FANTASTIC, then you get the same help that the govt would have given you then NOTHING!

Pick or choose, if you want to crash great but don't tell me in the same breath that you think the citizens should flip the bill for what you consider your freedom....

As I stated this isnt about freedom this is about you costing the rest of the country money because of a bonehead move. Sign a waiver so you can have it all your way but don't expect me to pay..

Alcohol is tied to approximately 33% of motorcyle accidents, should we go back to prohibition as well? I am sure this statistic is mirrored in total motor vehicle collisions. Not to mention, that is a higher rate of incidence compared to unhelmeted accidents, which is around 20%. Think about the total financial burden alcoholism takes on our country's tax resources.

What about smoking? That not only costs me a huge amount of tax paying money, but I have to suffer the consequences of second hand smoke.

I am sick of couch potatos too, I think a law should require every household member to walk at least one freakin' hour a day, that would cut healthcare costs down TREMENDOUSLY.


This IS about a person's rights and freedoms. Make no mistake about it. This is simply the gov't doing what it does best, taking away a person's rights. The minorities have a very small voice and there is a pretty good smear campaign to help keep that voice quiet too. You want to save tax payer's dollars? Tackle real problems, unhelmeted motorcycle riders are NOT a real problem, this isn't the obesity and diabetes epidemic we are talking about.

"The results show that in crashes where the overall degree of injury was comparable, the risk of head injury in hospitalized motorcyclists was nearly twice as high for unhelmeted riders as it was for helmeted riders, thus confirming the protective effects of helmet use. However, there were no significant differences in various measurements of resource utilization, including days in hospital, hospital charges, and need for post-hospital rehabilitation. A higher incidence of extremity injuries among the helmeted riders may account for their failure to demonstrate consistently lower resource utilization, despite lower rates of head injury."

-(The association of helmet use with the outcome of motorcycle crash injury when controlling for crash/injury severity

Robert Rutledge and Jane Stutts)

Wanna see a smear campaign? Go read read gov't funded research on the very same topic.

 

[djsin]

people die from internal injuries in bike crashs too alot of times the helmet wouldnt have played in the matter either way...

 

[captain]

where did i say i wanted medicare?

Dude I personally would love to see it go away too...

 

[captain]

What about smoking? That not only costs me a huge amount of tax paying money, but I have to suffer the consequences of second hand smoke.

great point.. and I think it is being addressed these days.. While people want to scream that smoking is their right we are now seeing companies (I read an article today) that are hiring only non smokers. It may be your right to smoke but the courts are now saying that it is a companies right to not hire you because you are a financial burden. The article was quoted as saying that it cost on average 12,000 more annually to cover a smoker vs a non smoker.

I absolutely think that if you want to puff on cigarettes for 60 years thats your free right as an American. Where you smoke may be an issue but in the end when you can't breath and need oxygen and don't have a retirement because you couldn't afford it don't come to the US taxpayers and demand that you want us to pay your medical bills because you CHOSE to smoke all your life. The days of people being able to sue and say they didn't know smoking was bad for you are at an end... Along with those freedoms that everyone demands there is also accountability and consequences.

Alcohol is tied to approximately 33% of motorcyle accidents, should we go back to prohibition as well?

Absolutely not but I do think that DUI laws should be much harsher than they are today, I think that insurance companies should be able to deny claims or offer limited claims for someone that is caught drinking and driving. Maybe a penalty for agreeing not to drink and drive on the payout to the family. Heck maybe if you sign your policy with the insurance company and you tell them you won't drink and drive and you do your money goes to the state to pay your medical bills first and not to the family.... Once again personal accountability....

The same holds true for gun laws in this country... Heck I personally think you should be able to have as many guns and whatever you can afford as long as you do it legally... We can have another discussion about the legalities but it would be easy to say that if you get caught committing a crime with a gun your bought and paid for... If you get caught carrying a gun without a permit then you are going to see a huge penalty... Lets throw some personal accountabilty and responsibility back to the people... We absolutely do need gun laws, I just think that we need to manage them as citizens and enforce the ones we do have....

cap

 

[VIPER]

I agree completely with personal accountability. I honestly think this country is turning into a bunch of grade school kids with a teacher and assistant teacher and a big bad principle. Our right are being taken away one by one and we arent doing anything about it. I often wonder 40 years from now when i am dead how this once free country is going to be. I am willing to bet at the rate we are going it wont be at all. I think the gov has way to much control and the moron running it right now is just making it worse. You know its funny we the people are suppost to elect our leaders and we didnt elect this clown. He lost the peoples vote. But because he won the territories vote he got it? Are you kidding me? And it has done nothing but get worse since he has been in. A prime example of it is his healthcare bill. What a joke.

On another note i am against forcing people to wear helmets or seatbelts. I think once you are 18 you are old enough to decide for yourself if its appropriate or not. Why should i be told what is safe for me and not? Who are they to tell me what i can and cant do if i am not hurting anyone? If i dont wear my belt and i die so what... it was my choice not theres. So lets say i wear it, and it gets stuck and i burn in a car. Can my family then collect money from the federal government because they said i had to wear it and indirectly cause my death? Wouldnt that be accidental homicide? As for helmets i think you should have the right to decide for yourself if you want to wear one. I have seen just as many kill people as save. There are a lot of statistics out there that go both ways. All depends on who is doing the study. Thats the plain truth. Rideing bikes is dangerous. You have no protection really. If anything you have less with a helmet to a certain extent as it cuts down vision, reduces hearing, and adss tons of weight to your neck and head. All of which can cause an accident in themselves.

So enough of my rambling. Thought i would just jot some of my thoughts down

 

[captain]

I agree completely with personal accountability. I honestly think this country is turning into a bunch of grade school kids with a teacher and assistant teacher and a big bad principle. Our right are being taken away one by one and we arent doing anything about it. I often wonder 40 years from now when i am dead how this once free country is going to be. I am willing to bet at the rate we are going it wont be at all. I think the gov has way to much control and the moron running it right now is just making it worse. You know its funny we the people are suppost to elect our leaders and we didnt elect this clown. He lost the peoples vote. But because he won the territories vote he got it? Are you kidding me? And it has done nothing but get worse since he has been in. A prime example of it is his healthcare bill. What a joke.

On another note i am against forcing people to wear helmets or seatbelts. I think once you are 18 you are old enough to decide for yourself if its appropriate or not. Why should i be told what is safe for me and not? Who are they to tell me what i can and cant do if i am not hurting anyone? If i dont wear my belt and i die so what... it was my choice not theres. So lets say i wear it, and it gets stuck and i burn in a car. Can my family then collect money from the federal government because they said i had to wear it and indirectly cause my death? Wouldnt that be accidental homicide? As for helmets i think you should have the right to decide for yourself if you want to wear one. I have seen just as many kill people as save. There are a lot of statistics out there that go both ways. All depends on who is doing the study. Thats the plain truth. Rideing bikes is dangerous. You have no protection really. If anything you have less with a helmet to a certain extent as it cuts down vision, reduces hearing, and adss tons of weight to your neck and head. All of which can cause an accident in themselves.

So enough of my rambling. Thought i would just jot some of my thoughts down

I think the real discussion started on this when Steve posted its not about you dieing. A funeral cost what about 7,000 thats nothing.. Its the long term medical care that people need when they don't wear a helmet... You can try to disprove all you want that helmets and seatbelts don't save lives but they do.. Heck man I could post up the number of times that guys on this forum have gone down with helmets scratched and dented and they called home for a ride a few minutes later.

There is of course those situations that I don't care if you were covered in bubble wrap a rider would have died of mass decelleration or blunt force trauma. Running 140 mph into a retaining wall a helmet probably isnt going to help a lot. If you take the accidents where people were obeying the posted limits I gurantee that the results would show that helmets and seatbelts save lives....

Once again...... I posted this before... there should be some sort of waiver out there for people that want to ride without a helmet that says that you do have a choice to make... If you ride with a helmet then you can get coverage because you knew the risks and made accomodations accordingly.

Once again, I think that insurance companies should be able to get a waiver that says that you will wear a helmet. If you don't and you crash your family gets nutton except the bike replaced.... That puts the responsibility on the rider to do the right thing... If you tell the insurance company that you are not going to wear a helmet then I think they should have the ability to quote you a much higher rate because they are taking on a higher risk.... At that point its still your choice on what you want to do... Either you can pay more to not wear a helmet and be covered, you can choose to wear a helmet and be covered or you can tell them you do and you don't and your family gets nothing when you crash...

Pretty simple to me... Serveral options out there for you to choose from.. .What I see wrong with our country is that everyone thinks they are entitled to " Be Free " and in the same breath they want the same coverage that the people that took the extra effort to protect themselves get....

 

[VIPER]

i agree on that cap. A waiver or something would be a good idea. On the flip side of that coin insurance companies make money hand over fist. Think of all the policies they have....State farm insures well over 10 million people. Out of the ten million lets say 20% make a claim. The rest dont. Think about the amount of profit there is in that. Basically the other 80% pay all that money in for nothing. Cept piece of mind i guess. On these policies they have the most they will pay out in cases of bodily harm etc. Depends on your policy most is like 100000. After that then most people have health insurance that has to kick in at that time. Now think about all the money people pay for health insurance and it will stagger you how profitable the insurance business is. The majority of the time it isnt the government that picks up the bill it your insurance company. ONly after all that is exhausted will the government, actually probably social security( which we wont even go into) will pay. And if the hospital has outstanding bills that you didnt pay they just write them off on thier taxes or collect from their insurance companies.

I do however agree with you on the helmet thing. I do thik there should be a waver or something that poeple can sign. I just dont think that insurance companies need anymore reasons to charge you any more money for the minimal services you actually recieve from them. I personally think insurance is one of the biggest scams and rip offs in the world.....i can say that i am an agent on the side

 

[captain]

100,000 is a drop in the bucket for someone that has to have ongoing medical care... Its not just the once in a while medication we're talking about those people that have to be put into a long term health care facility or the people that have to have in home care because they are brain dead but physically still alive... You're talking about 100,000 a year.. who flips the bill after the first year?

 

[VIPER]

100,000 is a drop in the bucket for someone that has to have ongoing medical care... Its not just the once in a while medication we're talking about those people that have to be put into a long term health care facility or the people that have to have in home care because they are brain dead but physically still alive... You're talking about 100,000 a year.. who flips the bill after the first year?

Well now that you mention it ...with obama binladens new health plan the insurance companies have to cover it . The new rules state there can no longer be a max cap on what insurance companies pay out. So if they have insurance it will have to continue to pay. If not I would bet social security. (which is broke already).

 

[skydivr]

Let's use a different sport for an example: I cannot get affordable life insurance because I skydive. Every time I fill out an application, it askes me if I participate in any 'extreme' sports (thankfully, riding a motorcycle is not YET one of those questions asked), along with "do I smoke?", "do I drink?", etc. These answers are compared against acturial tables (pardon my spelling) that the insurance companies use to assign a level of risk vs. reward (how long on average will this guy live and what is the likelyhood of a payout) which is how rates are assigned.

I can get life insurance at double the rate to cover getting killed while skydiving - or I can waiver the policy should I die while skydiving. Luckily, I was able to get a reasonable policy (at least for now) by converting my SGLI (Servicemans' Group Life Insurance) to VGLI (Veterans...) that does not have a hazardous sports or war clause in it.

Every time I go to the dropzone (the first time), I have to sign a waiver that pretty much states "I'm stupid enough to want to jump out of an airplane, and, should I die or get hurt, whether by my fault or anyone else's remotely involved, I, nor my heirs or assigns can sue anyone for any reason to include gross negligence"...in truth this document is ususally 5 or more pages in length and has to be initialed in 20 places, signed and witnessed BEFORE I am allowed anywere near the airplane. New jumpers even have to watch a video before signing the document. This is a very sobering experience for people wanting to try it out, and some walk away. Probably the first time they ever considered completely signing away their right to sue. It's about as crystal clear as you can make it. It's the nature of the beast, and in my mind, worth it.

I will tell you the odds of getting killed or maimed on a motorcycle (and the associated claims) are waaay higher thank getting killed skydiving (dying is alot cheaper than living as an invalid); the only thing that's keeping our riding rates down is the size of the population.

If you don't want to wear a helmet, that should be your choice, but if you don't and get hurt then society should equally not be responsible for your choice.

 

[captain]

Let's use a different sport for an example: I cannot get affordable life insurance because I skydive. Every time I fill out an application, it askes me if I participate in any 'extreme' sports (thankfully, riding a motorcycle is not YET one of those questions asked), along with "do I smoke?", "do I drink?", etc. These answers are compared against acturial tables (pardon my spelling) that the insurance companies use to assign a level of risk vs. reward (how long on average will this guy live and what is the likelyhood of a payout) which is how rates are assigned.

I can get life insurance at double the rate to cover getting killed while skydiving - or I can waiver the policy should I die while skydiving. Luckily, I was able to get a reasonable policy (at least for now) by converting my SGLI (Servicemans' Group Life Insurance) to VGLI (Veterans...) that does not have a hazardous sports or war clause in it.

Every time I go to the dropzone (the first time), I have to sign a waiver that pretty much states "I'm stupid enough to want to jump out of an airplane, and, should I die or get hurt, whether by my fault or anyone else's remotely involved, I, nor my heirs or assigns can sue anyone for any reason to include gross negligence"...in truth this document is ususally 5 or more pages in length and has to be initialed in 20 places, signed and witnessed BEFORE I am allowed anywere near the airplane. New jumpers even have to watch a video before signing the document. This is a very sobering experience for people wanting to try it out, and some walk away. Probably the first time they ever considered completely signing away their right to sue. It's about as crystal clear as you can make it. It's the nature of the beast, and in my mind, worth it.

I will tell you the odds of getting killed or maimed on a motorcycle (and the associated claims) are waaay higher thank getting killed skydiving (dying is alot cheaper than living as an invalid); the only thing that's keeping our riding rates down is the size of the population.

If you don't want to wear a helmet, that should be your choice, but if you don't and get hurt then society should equally not be responsible for your choice.

Keith the first time I jumped I had to go to an 8 hour class and sign waivers as you mentioned. Then we had to watch a video with an attorney that was equal to the old highschool drivers videos. The video showed what could go wrong and how many people die, at the end the attorney says now if you still want to jump go have a good time

This is long before you had a jumpmaster attached to you, my first jump was static.....

cap

 

[skydivr]

Keith the first time I jumped I had to go to an 8 hour class and sign waivers as you mentioned. Then we had to watch a video with an attorney that was equal to the old highschool drivers videos. The showed what could go wrong and how many people die, at the end the attorney says now if you still want to jump go have a good time

This is long before you had a jumpmaster attached to you, my first jump was static.....

cap

My first jump was static line also...i don't remember anything from the moment I let go of the strut until my parachute opened...total sensory and adrenalin overload......