Rear brake your best friend? Read on!

[megawatt]

Looks like the safety wiring may have saved you some major engine trouble as well. I'm glad you got through that one alright.

Yea, safety wiring the drain plug and oil filter are carry overs from trackdays. I do it to all my bikes. I never over torque the drain plug because the wire preventes it from loosening nor do I worry about the filter somehow loosening up. Just another example of how trackdays helps a rider be safer. Not to mention that trackdays are big time fun!

 

[Tufbusa]

Tuf and the other "no back break" guys, is it advisable to use the rear break during normal commutes where all stopping is within control and expected such as approaching a red light or stop sign? I really cannot see the benefit of using only the front break only when there is no danger of high siding.

You aren't likely to get into trouble at slower speeds. stay away from the rear brake on corners, that's the most likely place to get into trouble. However, if the pavement is clean and dry, there is no reason to use the rear brake at all unless you are sitting at a stop light and need the brake hand to flick a bug off your screen. The time for rear brake use is when traction is limited.

 

[Tufbusa]

Ok, i guess I misunderstood. You said that it was a riders school, no racer's, street folks looking to improve their skills.

A performance school is something different. Racer's and wanna be racer's.

We get lots of advanced street guys who take the performance school.

The rear brake is a tool to control your bike. I think it should be mastered not ignored and feared.

You are correct. My point is, the rear brake on a sport bike has no use unless traction is limited. Yes, you should learn to use the rear brake, especially in wet conditions or any time traction is limited.

If you stab at it it's going to lock. If you learn how to judge traction and apply it properly it's nothing to be afraid of.

You are correct, stabbing either brake is sure to lock the tire. However, the only way I know where the limit of traction is to loose it.

People that stomp on the pedal and lock the rear were in trouble before they ever jammed their right foot on the pedal. They panicked, froze and hammered it. It's the last thing they did wrong, not the first or second thing.

You don't have to be in trouble to highside yourself with the rear brake. The bloke who launched himself on Saturday had been using the rear brake with success all day and mid-afternoon he happen to create the proper condidions and his usual squeeze of the rear pedal sent him heavenly without warning! So no, it's not mandatory to be in trouble to get into trouble nor is it mandatory to hammer the brake to create a highside.


I was just saying that if it's a school for novice street rider's teaching them how and when to use the rear brake ought to be covered and practiced on the track. They need to learn how to steer and brake, not just one or the other.

You are correct! They do need improvement with both steering and braking but they don't need to be attempting to steer with the brake. Rich Oliver is the only guy I know of that specializes in teaching to steer with the rear tire. The class is taught on small dirt bikes on a dirt track. I sent my kid to Rich's school and the rusult was great. By the end of the third day Troy says he must have fell at least 400 times. So you crash a lot during the learning process.

Also, I may point out that the pros like Danny Eslick and Josh Hayes use engine compression to step the rear out then modulate the slide with the clutch! They too, leave the rear brake out of the equasion and so should you!


Using both brakes is the same as having integrated braking, except your brain is the control unit and needs to be trained to operate correctly.

You are correct! Using both brakes is no different than using integrated brakes. There are no integrated brake systems that I know of for sportbikes. And most touring bikes or at least the ones I'm familar with come with ABS along with the integrated braking which keeps both ends from locking up. Great idea on the bigger touring bikes, bad idea on sportbikes if you want performance over safety.

Good Post!

 

[IG.]

I wanted to add a small point to those who intend to use the rear for normal braking, and intend to use the front only for emergency/aggressive braking. That's not going to work.

By repeatedly using the rear brake, you create an acquired habit/reflex for your body and brain. Therefore, when emergency strikes, your body will surely attempt to use the rear even if you don't want it.

That is why for the sake of developing the correct reflex it is a good idea to completely stay away from the rear brake for normal and aggressive braking.

Slightly off topic, but important. If you gradually apply the front brake harder and harder, the front will "talk" to you when it approaches the limits of traction. Howling sound, or the front starts skipping - and chirping over the pavement. This is simply a signal that you are at the limit. Respect it and back off slightly - no need to fear it. Listening (and not fearing) is the key to such exercise.

It's a great idea to practice an emergency or simply aggressive braking a few times during every ride. You will know how it feels, you won't be afraid when you really need it, and you will be developing correct reflexes.

 

[theskaz]

I have used my rear brake twice. Once during a monsoon in OKC at 10pm trying to find a hotel and a stop sign jumped out of the bushes and tried to kill me. I was straight up and down grabbed a handful of front break and freaked that I was not stopping fast enough, then stepped on the rear brake. the minute I touched it it broke traction and kicked out to the right.

2nd time was on palomar (and on youtube). I was behind Lamb and a kawi lowsided in front of us and I did the same thing as #1. I was upright and the back tire kicked out to the left this time.


Never again.

 

[mountainmotor]

I think Tuf's original thread purpose was to state "Using the rear brake on the racetrack is a really bad idea" to prevent new trackday riders from the dreaded highside

With that said and steadying the subject matter for a question;

Tufbusa , can you give us a general idea of his lean angle , speed in mph and estimate of engine RPM along with what gear position he was probably in ?

 

[skydivr]

I have used my rear brake twice. Once during a monsoon in OKC at 10pm trying to find a hotel and a stop sign jumped out of the bushes and tried to kill me. I was straight up and down grabbed a handful of front break and freaked that I was not stopping fast enough, then stepped on the rear brake. the minute I touched it it broke traction and kicked out to the right.

2nd time was on palomar (and on youtube). I was behind Lamb and a kawi lowsided in front of us and I did the same thing as #1. I was upright and the back tire kicked out to the left this time.


Never again.

wow, you wern't hardly moving...did you hit some gravel or oil? Woudn't expect the rear to have broke at that speed....

 

[theskaz]

I didn't hit anything. just too much rear brake.

 

[Pardini]

I didn't hit anything. just too much rear brake.

You crunched to rear brake because you weren't looking where you wanted to go and panicked. There was no reason to use the brakes, just needed to turn and make the corner.

 

[Tufbusa]

wow, you wern't hardly moving...did you hit some gravel or oil? Woudn't expect the rear to have broke at that speed....

He was going faster than it appeared. Speed is deceptive with these wide angle lens.

I don't think Skaz was trying to slow up for the corner, I think he was trying to stop to help the guy who fell. Front and rear brake at the same time can make for tense moments, eh Skaz?

What I want to know is who was the poor bloke sliding down the ditchline on the opposite side?

 

[Lamb busa]

He was going faster than it appeared. Speed is deceptive with these wide angle lens.

I don't think Skaz was trying to slow up for the corner, I think he was trying to stop to help the guy who fell. Front and rear brake at the same time can make for tense moments, eh Skaz?

What I want to know is who was the poor bloke sliding down the ditchline on the opposite side?

Some random guy on a borrowed bike. BTW, he picked that thing up brushed some dirt off and rode away. unreal!

 

[OldMan]

TufBusa, I just stumbled upon this braking article, could you give us your take?
Riding Skills Series: Using The Rear Brake - Sport Rider Magazine

 

[fallenarch]

You have braking on the rear without use of the pedal. You'd be surprised how much braking you get from engine compression. Downshift and keep the RPM's high and as you are braking pull the clutch in. You'll get an idea of how much braking is done with the engine. Then it's simply modulating the front brake to keep traction on the rear tire and you have maximum braking.

I started riding on the dirt and I would actually go riding without a front brake. In the dirt locking up the rear wasn't an issue but any mis-application of the front brake could be an instant face plant.

I will be the first to admit that I learned most of what I know in the streets so I'm more asking than disagreeing Tufbusa. I use the rear brake to slow down a little before switching to the front to really adjust speed (say from 120 down to 90 or so). My thinking here is that using the rear first slows the bike with less front fork compression, keeping the handling more neutral. I then apply the front until it's time to tip in and I back off. I usually brake as much as I can while straight up and then lean in and go for it when I run out of braking room. This is the corner or brake or accelerate but never two things at once method. This feels natural and smooth, and the bike basically does what I ask it to - but is it right?

 

[Tufbusa]

TufBusa, I just stumbled upon this braking article, could you give us your take?
Riding Skills Series: Using The Rear Brake - Sport Rider Magazine

I remember that article quite well. Sport Rider Magazine written by Andrew Trevitt.

I love Andrew Trevitt, great guy with a long history of racing motorcycles. I have his book "Sport Bike Suspension Tuning" and probably read it a dozen times. Good read if you are interested in how your suspension works.

As some of you know Andrew is a Quadriplegic as a result of a motorcycle wreck while testing tires on a California back road. A 15 year old kid ran over him.

I agree with almost everything I've ever read from Andrew but I disagree with him on his views of rear brake use. Even my friend Mike Sullivan who was racing when Andrew was born disagreed with the article. Mike Raced with Andrew for a number of years. Andrew wasn't in the same league with Mike.

So I'm not the only guy who disagreed with that article.

 

[Tufbusa]

I started riding on the dirt and I would actually go riding without a front brake. In the dirt locking up the rear wasn't an issue but any mis-application of the front brake could be an instant face plant.

I will be the first to admit that I learned most of what I know in the streets so I'm more asking than disagreeing Tufbusa. I use the rear brake to slow down a little before switching to the front to really adjust speed (say from 120 down to 90 or so). My thinking here is that using the rear first slows the bike with less front fork compression, keeping the handling more neutral. I then apply the front until it's time to tip in and I back off. I usually brake as much as I can while straight up and then lean in and go for it when I run out of braking room. This is the corner or brake or accelerate but never two things at once method. This feels natural and smooth, and the bike basically does what I ask it to - but is it right?

Using your method of braking with a light rear then switching to the front is fine if you are casually braking with no real mission in mind. However, it's a very inefficient way of burning off speed. The front is many times more effective at burning speed than the rear. Simply look at the size of the dual front rotors compared to the rear. This size comparison tells the entire story.

 

[kml]

As some of you know Andrew is a Quadriplegic

I believe he is a paraplegic as from his blog it appears he has use of his arms.

Get Well Trev

His book is excellent.

cheers
ken

 

[bazmaniac]

There is definately a time and place for the rear brake, mostly when traction is limited such as rain or gravel. Dry clean pavement is where you'll get yourself in trouble with the rear brake.

Braking skills are rarely well developed in street riders. In my view, braking skills are the most important survival skills involved in motorcycling.

+1....especially REAR braking skills!

hands up how many REGULARLY practice an "emergency braking" procedure (....and by that, I don't mean jamming both brakes on until you lock both wheels and skid down the road )?!? ???

Practising these skills on a regular basis might just save your life (...and/or limbs) one day!!!

 

[phil823]

i use the rear is town and on streets MOSTLY with passangers. as the added rear weight helps keep the wheel planted, and it allows for a quick yet less nose dive brake.

 

[jellyrug]

Braking on the track is different to every day riding on the street.

Braking on a sports bike is also different than braking with a Gold-Wing or a Harley.

Don't sell your rear brake on ebay, there is a reason it is fitted to your bike.

 

[Tufbusa]

I believe he is a paraplegic as from his blog it appears he has use of his arms.

Get Well Trev

His book is excellent.

cheers
ken

You could be right on that one, Ken. Quadraplegic was my choice of words since his arms and hands have limited use at best. I don't think he can use his fingers for the keyboard but I could be mistaken on the extent of use he has?

Anyway you cut it, sad result of a teenager on the road before he is old enough to be licensed.