Rear brake your best friend? Read on!

[Gitonit!]

What an interesting thread here.
I sure would be interested in a track day instructed by a Jedi Master.
I have only ridden on the street with my `streetbikes`, but learned long ago on dirt machines that probably 90% of braking is done with the front brakes.
On the street I have (straight line & upright) used (IMO) every bit of braking ability the bike had this side of losing controll, with the rear letting out an intermittent chirp. (good or bad?) I never give it much thought about the rear brake being almost useless due to the weight transfer.
Still unsure what a highside means, but I will go back and re-read, think maybe I have seen it but not sure exact cause (mechanics of it?)
Good Post.

 

[nabusa]

Here is an example of a high side. High side means when you get launched off the bike. Low side is when you fall down (without being tossed in the air) and sliding to a stop. You can see why a high side can hurt a lot more.

Motorcycle Crash on Mulholland‬‏ - YouTube[/url]

 

[Tufbusa]

Skydivr posted up a great example of Lorenzo's highside on Saturday in this thread. That's a throttle highside instead of a braking highside but the results are the same. Watch how Lornezo gets tossed, highsides are no fun!

You have braking on the rear without use of the pedal. You'd be surprised how much braking you get from engine compression. Downshift and keep the RPM's high and as you are braking pull the clutch in. You'll get an idea of how much braking is done with the engine. Then it's simply modulating the front brake to keep traction on the rear tire and you have maximum braking.

 

[Gitonit!]

I think the camera angle could have been a little more helpful (instructive) if it was to the right a little...but the end result was quite clear!
Now that you mentioned it earlier, I believe my tire chirps were the result of downshifts.

 

[Lamb busa]

Hooray Tuf! Lamb loves you man! Please stop the use of the rear brake. Nothing good happens when touched. A perfect example happened this year at Eureka springs ( a glorious place to ride, by the way). Hotfoot decided to use his and found himself in a ditch. Rear wheel lost the ability to grab the road because it was sliding, sliding tire equals zero traction. Actually, sliding tire equals negative traction, because the bike will take time to track straight again once the brake is disengaged, and that takes valuable time, and even half a second going 45 mph is valuable road. Because the rear tire was sliding, instead of tipping into the turn on time the sliding rear wouldnt allow for front end control, i.e. counter steer...look and lean. The tip in point was passed and all that was left was for the rear to grab when it got to about a 40 degree angle to the bike and unfortunately into the ditch after a summersault over the bike. Happened right before Lamb eyes, took 2 seconds and was obvious as heck what happened.

Please stay off the rear brake. One must not learn all lessons oneself...one can learn from others, and keep those memories as ones own....That's Lamb best attempt at confuscism.

Sorry for using you as an example hotfoot but we are always learning and it seemed like a timely story

 

[Lamb busa]

Cut that brake lever off to a nub, the proper uses of the rear brake are as follows:
1. when sitting on a hill stopped
2. when stopped and needing to hold yourself on a hill
3. when stopped and needing to hold yourself on relatively flat ground
4. gravel roads going downhill only...less than 10 mph! although engine braking is better.

 

[motochris]

Hooray Tuf! Lamb loves you man! Please stop the use of the rear brake. Nothing good happens when touched. A perfect example happened this year at Eureka springs ( a glorious place to ride, by the way). Hotfoot decided to use his and found himself in a ditch. Rear wheel lost the ability to grab the road because it was sliding, sliding tire equals zero traction. Actually, sliding tire equals negative traction, because the bike will take time to track straight again once the brake is disengaged, and that takes valuable time, and even half a second going 45 mph is valuable road. Because the rear tire was sliding, instead of tipping into the turn on time the sliding rear wouldnt allow for front end control, i.e. counter steer...look and lean. The tip in point was passed and all that was left was for the rear to grab when it got to about a 40 degree angle to the bike and unfortunately into the ditch after a summersault over the bike. Happened right before Lamb eyes, took 2 seconds and was obvious as heck what happened.

Please stay off the rear brake. One must not learn all lessons oneself...one can learn from others, and keep those memories as ones own....That's Lamb best attempt at confuscism.

I knew Lamb wouldn't be able to stop himself from commenting on rear/front brake thread!

Always one of my favorites to read. The trac story up top is a good example of how people can be stubborn. Unfortunately a lot of these breaking habits are gonna be learned by trial an error. Just time in the saddle.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

 

[motochris]

Hooray Tuf! Lamb loves you man! Please stop the use of the rear brake. Nothing good happens when touched. A perfect example happened this year at Eureka springs ( a glorious place to ride, by the way). Hotfoot decided to use his and found himself in a ditch. Rear wheel lost the ability to grab the road because it was sliding, sliding tire equals zero traction. Actually, sliding tire equals negative traction, because the bike will take time to track straight again once the brake is disengaged, and that takes valuable time, and even half a second going 45 mph is valuable road. Because the rear tire was sliding, instead of tipping into the turn on time the sliding rear wouldnt allow for front end control, i.e. counter steer...look and lean. The tip in point was passed and all that was left was for the rear to grab when it got to about a 40 degree angle to the bike and unfortunately into the ditch after a summersault over the bike. Happened right before Lamb eyes, took 2 seconds and was obvious as heck what happened.

Please stay off the rear brake. One must not learn all lessons oneself...one can learn from others, and keep those memories as ones own....That's Lamb best attempt at confuscism.

Sorry for using you as an example hotfoot but we are always learning and it seemed like a timely story

Very well put! Yes it is actually that simple! What a great list!

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

 

[Gitonit!]

I like that Lamb busa, but must say that avatars a little unnerving
I think in the past someone has offered instruction at MidAmericaMotorplex, but at this time the Busa would need a snorkel kit and propeller.
I will pay heed to what was posted here.

 

[fastblackblur]

Great post Steven, you seem to have done a good job convincing on this one. If you could only get the same results with the Shinko tire threads...


Personaly, I blame the MSF course....

In my local comunity I run into lots of folks who can't seem to stop using their rear brake, and as all of my brothers and sisters in arms are required to attend this class they all get fed the same B.S. The problem I run into is these people I run into think that because it was taught to them by an official instructor it must be 100% correct. Surely a product of our military conditioning...

I do think the MSF course does alot of good for new riders overall I just don't think their take on the rear brake is benificial for sport riders.

 

[nabusa]

Oh yeah, they do teach you to use the rear brakes on the MSF course. Actually since I toke that course that's when I started to use the rear brake now that I think about it.

 

[Gitonit!]

looks like skid/loss of traction, sudden regain of grip and your launched

 

[busastalker05]

Great thread TUf! When i wrecked 3 years ago, i came over a hill and pavement stopped and turned to gravel, i locked the rear brake and came close with the front, i low sided to my left somehow i didnt high side(thank the good lord).

After a few more years of expirience, i only touch the rear brake in town with traffic if i passenger( maybe wrong but it makes me feel better! now with that said, when i ride solo in the mtns, i NEVER EVER EVER touch that death stick under my right foot! ive made that mistake a couple times in some tight turns and saw myself heading straight for some big dicthes! ive since learned! motor braking and front brakes only!

 

[KvHotDog4]

I had never heard about not touching the rear brake until I met Skydivr. I didn't understand why not to use the rear after he explained it I started trying it out. I agree the braking is alot more stable with only the front, but I still find myself pressing the pedal when I am not paying attention. I am getting better about it but its still scary when I first realize I am using the rear and about to dip in a curve.

 

[macon454]

Great post Tuff

 

[skydivr]

One of my favorite bumper stickers: "Eschew Obfuscation".

Why use small words when big one's work just as good and make you look Smart? I lused to love to use that one in offical miltary correspondence, but my favorite one to use was "plethora"

 

[OldMan]

Tuf and the other "no back break" guys, is it advisable to use the rear break during normal commutes where all stopping is within control and expected such as approaching a red light or stop sign? I really cannot see the benefit of using only the front break only when there is no danger of high siding.

 

[Pardini]

The rear brake has no effect on burning speed. The rear brake is used to steer. Learning to burn speed is the easy part. Learning to steer is a bit more complicated and time consuming. Most track day guys have no need to learn to steer with the rear brake.

If however, you wish to learn the art of rear end steering you can attend "Rich Oliver's mystery school". Rich teaches you how to step the rear out and drive that puppy home like a spike in a railroad tie.

No performance school that I know of teaches the use of the rear brake.

Ok, i guess I misunderstood. You said that it was a riders school, no racer's, street folks looking to improve their skills.

A performance school is something different. Racer's and wanna be racer's.

120 paying customers with 25 being students taking the riding school. No wanna be racers, all street folkes wanting to improve their skills. Some in the Intermediate and some in the novice group.

The rear brake is a tool to control your bike. I think it should be mastered not ignored and feared. If your afraid of it, you will never learn to use it, and if and when you do it will likely end poorly. If you stab at it it's going to lock. If you learn how to judge traction and apply it properly it's nothing to be afraid of. Just have to learn to ease on and back off, same as the throttle and front brake. Any abrupt input is going to unsettle the bike, it's all about modulation.

People that stomp on the pedal and lock the rear were in trouble before they ever jammed their right foot on the pedal. They panicked, froze and hammered it. It's the last thing they did wrong, not the first or second thing.

I was just saying that if it's a school for novice street rider's teaching them how and when to use the rear brake ought to be covered and practiced on the track. They need to learn how to steer and brake, not just one or the other. If you have to take evasive action on the street, most likely your going to have to do both at the same time. If your confident in your ability to do that then, you won't have to tell your bud's you HAD to lay it down.

Using both brakes is the same as having integrated braking, except your brain is the control unit and needs to be trained to operate correctly.

 

[skydivr]

I had never heard about not touching the rear brake until I met Skydivr. I didn't understand why not to use the rear after he explained it I started trying it out. I agree the braking is alot more stable with only the front, but I still find myself pressing the pedal when I am not paying attention. I am getting better about it but its still scary when I first realize I am using the rear and about to dip in a curve.

Kevin, everything I think I know, Tuf taught me. I'm just lucky he felt sorry for me You get yourself together and come do a trackday (come on down Friday or Sat night to NSS and check it out!) and you'll find out REAL quick at the end of the back straight why you don't want to touch the rear.

The only reason I can think that they'd teach that in MSF is that it's the BASIC SAFETY COURSE FOR NEW RIDERS, but we'd have to ask an MSF instructor why they do that. I've been riding since I was 14, but not like this except for the last 3 years (so I've never taken the MSF) - can't take it now cause I'd argue with him about this in front of everyone...

Pardini, I gotta think the idea is to leave the nuances for AFTER a rider learns how to brake correctly with the front. This post was clearly to help instruct those riders starting to ride their bikes more aggressively.

I'm telling you guys, Trackdays are worth their weight in GOLD.

Old Man, after having said the above, If I'm just putting around town (commuting), I'll use the rear too, but I've had to train myself the difference between putting around and riding agressively.

 

[Flicka]

Track day training saved me that day.

Looks like the safety wiring may have saved you some major engine trouble as well. I'm glad you got through that one alright.