End the agrument of TRE

[extreemachine]

I have an 06 Busa I bought new. I am far from an expert or a master mechanic. I am a good mechanic though. I have the GiPRO ATRE. You can turn it on and off with the switch on it. There is a difference in smoothness in lower gears for sure. I have not come close to top speed or anything. I am not a track nut either, would love to try one day though. But for around town riding etc there is a difference in smoothness. Again I have no idea on performance wise if that goes hand in hand with smoothness or not either. It is fast enough for me with the little bit I have done to her. looking forward to reading some real info if you get some. Thanks!

 

[2busa]

Professor, You know I'm always game for tree talk. I'm ready to saw away and cover the floor with sawdust.
I'm walking myself thru the logic. Say, fuel mileage increases using the tre. That tells me less fuel (not timing) is being used. It takes energy to move an object forward, correct?
Say the tre causes less mileage. This tells me that more fuel is dumping in; To soften the engine burst in the rather, (more ideal) leaner condition. The extra fuel (not ignition) is over the ideal F/A ratio. There is your smooth ride.

I do understand the TPS will affect both fuel and ignition. Hey, it's too complicated, so just stick to one point.... meaning, is it timing or fuel? We get too deep into FI, the ones I want to follow most are going to be lost even more.

So, who has the better gas mileage under ALL conditions... Stock or the tre installed, (harvesting the code)?

Next, I hear results that the tre shows poor 1/4 mile times? Is that with or without a pcom. I'm ready to fault the pcom before I fault the backup in the ECU, (that the tre harvested). If that's the case, then that explains it for me = Pcom at fault for low times ~ over rich once again.
So, Who knows if this slow bike was using a pc with the tre that stated his results?

 

[PaceMaster]

Hello all---- Ahhh --The TRE debate rages on for years.
I installed a switchable homemade one on mine years ago. I leave it on all the time---------- why-- Busa's don't like to go slow like at 25 mph--- abit smoother with it on [richer] 5th gear map. Slower ET at the strip--with TRE
Too much timing makes for a more difficult launch. As in harder too modulate the clutch----abit more power--but man is it sweet when you just slide out the clutch with mondo torque leaving from a stop. Plus on my 01 it removes the 6th gear redline--- only been 178 on gps so that didnt matter yet. I do get 50 mpg's often== more timing means less throttle at any given speed--except WFO ? One fun side benefit is while stopped at a light in neutral---- neutral map--when you pull in the clutch-- it idles down and sounds like a top fueler ready to launch--- I am now wasted space -----

 

[OZBooster]

If the TRE changed the lower end fuel and not timing it would be easily measurable , Tre on and TRE off definitely changes engine idle revs without noticable change on my wideband, so i'm inclined to believe it does change timing in this area.
Same change clutch in and out with the TRE .

The other issue is 5 and 6 enrichenment , i believe its supposed to be 5% and 12% for ram air , as the MAP sensor only functions to 5% throttle the TPS mapping cannot correct for density changes at speed.

 

[2busa]

Booster, Say I'm riding in 5th all day long at 4K rpm or under scenario. Are you telling me I'm now running 5 to 12% richer? Put it in 6th, I don't care.
That's about what most Busas cruise at. Ok, show me 12% more soot on the spark plug or tell me the sensor data did not change both ign and fuel quantity because the air density couldn't keep up with the TPS.

Speaking out loud: "Booster, You better get on the phone to Japan, (go right to the top) and tell the ECU/FI teams the sensors are too slow for the fuel and ignition, but can still pull your arms off the bars at will. Pick any density on earth... sans under water."

OK, let's go deeper. Of course if you figured out your old cars (intake manifold-vacuum ign. advance is tied to the gas peddle) with this combination, is always in play in the ECU as well. You'll have to pick either one, (fuel or ignition) or we will go around in circles discussing both.

Are you following how I'm breaking down the logic for every component you bring up?

I need to know one thing please; does the tre/clutch trick, increase or decrease the stock fuel economy. Stock pipes, performance pipe, it's still fuel economy numbers with or without a tre.

To me, a computer bike is like hiding a camera under a car and bringing it to a fast lube franchise. Magic hands performing nothing under your car. Pay the cashier for what.

 

[ranman]

 

[OZBooster]

(2busa @ Dec. 03 2006,14:43) Booster, Say I'm riding in 5th all day long at 4K rpm or under scenario. Are you telling me I'm now running 5 to 12% richer? Put it in 6th, I don't care.
That's about what most Busas cruise at. Ok, show me 12% more soot on the spark plug or tell me the sensor data did not change both ign and fuel quantity because the air density couldn't keep up with the TPS.

Speaking out loud: "Booster, You better get on the phone to Japan, (go right to the top) and tell the ECU/FI teams the sensors are too slow for the fuel and ignition, but can still pull your arms off the bars at will. Pick any density on earth... sans under water."

OK, let's go deeper. Of course if you figured out your old cars (intake manifold-vacuum ign. advance is tied to the gas peddle) with this combination, is always in play in the ECU as well. You'll have to pick either one, (fuel or ignition) or we will go around in circles discussing both.

Are you following how I'm breaking down the logic for every component you bring up?

I need to know one thing please; does the tre/clutch trick, increase or decrease the stock fuel economy. Stock pipes, performance pipe, it's still fuel economy numbers with or without a tre.  

To me, a computer bike is like hiding a camera under a car and bringing it to a fast lube franchise. Magic hands performing nothing under your car. Pay the cashier for what.

Should have been more specific, and this is not something i have tested and can confirm with figures but informat that has stuck in my mind after 7 yrs of busa boards, articles , and other info.
IMO each gear is seperately mapped maybe very little change in the lower rpms or lower gears top gears would be mapped for the speed, not much change at 4k but 9 k will have some proper speed happening increased air pressure and suitable mapping.
If the Map sensor was used at speed disconnecting the vac line would make it feel bad right across the range but in reality it idles bad stumbles then rides fine.

 

[audial]

OK... here's my 2 cents on how to end this discussion….

If ozbooster says that his wideband doesn’t change when switching the TRE on and off then I guess that sorta proves that the A/F mixture doesn’t change, unless the wideband doesn’t respond quickly enough. As far as timing goes I have a test in mind that would show if and how the timing varies with each gear with the TRE on and off.

First remove the clutch cover plug so that you can see the bolt that spins with the engine crank and take some yellow paint and make a line on the hub bolt and washer from the center out to the edge as an indicator that will spin as the crankshaft turns. Next construct a little template with “degree marks†that you can tape to the engine cover around the hole. Next you’ll have to make a spark plug jumper wire (use a regular plain old spark plug wire) about 4 inches long that will allow you to remove the coil pack from the spark plug on cylinder number “1†and place the jumper between the coil pack and the spark plug. This will give you a place to clamp on the inductive pickup from a timing light (remember those handy things). Now either put the bike on a dyno or secure the bike on a rear stand so that you can run the engine and put the bike through each gear. You should be able to take the timing light and by pointing it at the bolt in the inspection hole where you put the yellow line, be able to log the amount of ignition advance through each gear with and without the TRE switched on. I’ve wanted to do this but haven’t had the time yet so anyone feel free to try this and post up your results.

This should once and for all put an end to both discussions of whether or not the timing advance is affected by a TRE and does the timing advance actually change with gear position or just RPM.

 

[2busa]

The tre/clutch mod is functioning in a backup mode. It took a few flips in the (14's) shop manual to notice the correlation between the tre locking the (GPS) gear selector window in 6th, and reading what the bike will do when it defaults to that specific code message on the dash panel; the backup code has been set by the tre.

Then I said to myself, how after 7 years, no one has figured out how simple it was to replicate the tre by simply disconnecting the sensors wire harnesses. I have achieved the same results of any tre, be it "smart" or whatever; you will match the tre, healer, limiter, etc., by leaving THAT wire harness disconnected. The logical process was that obvious to recognize.
Whatever wires are behind the clutch you need to mess with, you can simply ground the wires, install the clutch harness in main harness, and bingo, no engine tear-down. Is the clutch trick grounding some wire? Why didn't you use the wire out of the clutch case? It's all about shorting to ground, or a disconnect at the wire harness on computer bikes.

Audial, just blip-ping the throttle will change the ign timing. This is still an internal combustible engine with ign advance constantly changing, as if there was a vacuum advance tied to the throttle. It's now more precise using sensors, instead of say, a centrifugal (bike) advancer of days gone by.

 

[diablotoona]

That sounds like a process, does not anyone have a buddy at the dealer who would lend them the scan tool? That would be way easy.
If the wideband does not change with the TRE, I would say for sure it is timing, less timing will yield a decrease in MPG due to the fuel not being combusted all the way, or in this case less than what it would without the TRE.
These systems seem to be speed density systems, since no 02 sensors are being used, so the fuel curve is most likely RPM,MAP and %TP based, could be MPH based to, to make up for ram air effect. And it would be in open loop all the time, so most likely under low load the a/f would be considerably leaner than wot for emissions and economy.
Timing from what we know has a map for each gear, these maps are most likely RPM and MAP/%TP based, then with adders and subtracters for IAT and ECT.
Since the bike does not have too many sensors the system can not be too complex, but without seeing the ecu flash or a data log of what timing and various sensors show under various conditions we can only guess at this point.
Might just be rambling on here but i might go make some friends at the dealer later here. SO we can get some concrete results.

 

[audial]

2busa, I am by no means arguing the point of ignition advance nor am I intending to get into the discussion that you and JC had on the other thread....wow. What I am suggesting is to prove and document the exact amount of ignition advance and if it varies not only by throttle position (no argument there) but by gear position as well.

The GPS on our Busa's do not simply short or open the circuit depending on the gear (not even in 6th) but vary the voltage returned to the ECU from the voltage reference supplied. The GPS has 6 resistors inside each with a different value. I believe that JC's modded GPS utilizes the same resistor value for 6th as it does for 5th (1,2,3,4,5,5) as mentioned in the other thread. ANYWAY, you and JC can argue your point.

My point was that based on having the GPS connected let's once and for all prove that there is in fact different ignition maps based on each gear with the same TP and if so how much. And if so does the TRE modify the ignition advance and how much. If there is in fact increased ignition advance with each gear than the term "retard" in TRE isn't correct as its just that gears 1,2,3, & 4 have less advance, which can be corrected the right way with a PCIIIr or ignition advance module.

 

[Professor]

2 Busa,

Please keep this on topic. We are talking about Hayabusa functions not the ZX14.  The TRE functions different with the 14 compared to the Busa. If you want to discuss the 14 TRE I'll be glad to point out what little I have read about it..... in a different thread or by PM.

Thanks in advance...
Professor

 

[Professor]

Here is some documentation from the service manual to ponder:

7-20

The ignition system is controlled by the ECM. The system is called fully transistorized ignition system which decides accurate ignition timing according to the engine RMP, gear position, and throttle position.

Gear position sensor:
The gear position switch has a different resistance for each gear, and ECM understands the gear position. The ECM selects the ignition timing when the gear position is changed.

Note, the ignition cut –off circuit is incorporated in this ECM to prevent over-running of the engine. If the engine rpm reaches 10.600 r/pm, this circuit cuts off the ignition primary current for all spark plugs.

Per 4-31

If the gear position sensor fails, the signal is fixed to 6th gear.




I have read in the Supplement that 6th gear is limited to 10,200. Therefore, disconnecting the GPS should result in a 10,200 rev limit as well as JC has previously stated. It should also incorporate timing changes for the 6th gear. I don’t have access to the reference at this time but will update this post later.

 

[Professor]

Audial,

Good ideal on to test, but as diablo (and 2 busa) pointed out rpm and tps also come into play. You would likely need to test on a eddy current style dyno at different throttle positions and rpm in each gear to get the data you are looking for.

 

[audial]

So, as pointed out by Professor the ignition timing is also controlled by GPS, therefore using my test above (or a similar test) we should be able to map the amount of initial ignition timing and the amount of advance based on each gear, TP, and RPM. Once we do that if indeed the timing is vastly different in the lower gears we could theoretically use a PCII, PCIIIr, or an ignition module to increase the timing for the lower gears, keeping in mind of course the ECU would be oblivious to this and would still increase the advance for the higher gears and potentially be too much total ignition advance. Again, this would be based on where we increase the ignition timing. I believe JC pointed out that even a PowerCommander with ignition advance setting cannot modify advance below 4,000 rpm. So if that is correct does that mean that initial timing (advance) is used up to 4,000 rpm? If all of this holds true, then we're back to square one where initial ignition timing (advance) is purely based on gear and nothing short of fooling the ECU as to which gear it's in will ever change that.

I really do think the first thing we need to do is map the ignition timing, both initial and amount of advance and the actual curve by each gear, TP, and rpm. Then and only then can we stop the "I'm right dammit" attitude.

 

[diablotoona]

I would tend to think the service manual is correct in what items are used to determine timing due to the fact that it needs to state that for troubleshooting. Now the tables (usually 3D) can have %tp in it as one of its axes, a table where x and y where %tp and Eng rpm and where z (unit in table) would be timing and then 6 different tables for each gear would seem completely doable to me. At least for base timing, you always have the temp dependent tables as well which will add subtract timing based on IAT and ECT.

 

[GIXERHP]

Its real simple,,, if someone brings it up,, dont respond to the post!!!

 

[ranman]

(GIXERHP @ Dec. 04 2006,17:01) Its real simple,,, if someone brings it up,, dont respond to the post!!!

good advise. but you posted it in the thread

just playin

 

[GIXERHP]

(ranman @ Dec. 04 2006,17:41)

(GIXERHP @ Dec. 04 2006,17:01) Its real simple,,, if someone brings it up,, dont respond to the post!!!

good advise. but you posted it in the thread

just playin

wright back at you!!!

 

[2busa]

(Professor @ Dec. 04 2006,11

) Here is some documentation from the service manual to ponder:

If the gear position sensor fails, the signal is fixed to 6th gear.

Professor, I'm pulling your ear next to my lips... "A computer bike is a computer bike."
Understand the similarity between the two bikes yet? Understand the technology both companies have to share with the FI manufacturers. Is the Busa a Mikuni manufactured throttle body? There you go. Busa/Kaw share the same evolution of the ECU/FI. Now, since I'll take a guess they used 6th way back in 99, they sure as sheet, use it in the 14 now. Nothing is new between bikes. 14 defaults the same way as the Busa = Uses locked 6th for all gear, ign/fuel quantity.
Therefore, the other GPS resistors were bumping up/down 10th's of volts to the ECU. That's, 3.0 V in 1st, down to, 0.7 volts for 6th.

Notice the backup, (under 1.0 volt) 6th using all gears for fuel and ignition delivery. Though I stated 14 voltage numbers, the correlation between both bikes; both default to the single digital (Suz says, 'Transistorized') backup = 6th gear.

Professor, I believe I am staying right on target. I brought (my) empirical data to formulate what I've concluded a few months ago; Owning a computer bike similar to a Busa (I'd be doing the same sensor removal thing to a BUSA) and really digging deep into the (transistorized) tune.
Eliminating the atmospheric sensor, throttle body vacuum sensors, and pulling harness wires off the GPS sensors, are just a few things you can do.
Notice how I'm chasing the digital set. Toona, if I still had the bike, I would have removed the water temp sensor, and chase the digital, 80 deg C backup water temp in the ECU.

Notice how the tre chases a partial 'transistorized' backup. Notice how I kept harvesting more 'digital' settings in the 14.
Don't you see the same pattern between both bikes? No one has ever setup a Busa with a complete backup setting that I know about. If the tre shorts to the computer to harvest that smooth running ride you feel, just think what else you can chase.

What I don't know are the details. I'm not about to think there are 6 maps either. I do know, the crank speed and every last backup digi/transistor in the ECU will blow away a stocker with all their sensors in place.
I look at it this way. No matter what the dynos read, no matter what the bike can do on the 1320, the engine runs in a sensored window of tune. Meaning, the bike runs in a lean/rich gap and will survive in any part of the globe, be it tuned in the sensor voltage values, or the digi/transistor voltage single value. Both, (obviously) will run in either parameter of values.

Both ECU parameters, (sensors or backup) fall within the same tunable range. I proved that to myself on the 14. I'll take the backup tune, thank you.

GAS MILEAGE, (with and without tre) ANYONE?