Can we talk about this without turning it into an argument?
- Thread starter Blanca BusaLess
- Start date
I guess this pretty much summed up my feelings about it too.Different strokes for different folks. War is hell and should be no holds barred. If I were killed by an enemy I wouldn't expect any less...you're just that ... the enemy, piss away. What do I care if it were me, I'd be dead.
I see also the need for GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE, and also find it hard to believe that this was taped, considering what happened at the prison.
Good replies from the guys who have served, and good topic/question Blanca.
War is war and emotions run high ... what they did was bad ( kind of ) but maybe all they need is a good talking too ) slap slap on the hand.. As an acquaintance of the Helveston family I could sure think of a lot of other worse things to do then what they troops did on camera .
Ditto :O Holy P
) slap slap on the hand.. As an acquaintance of the Helveston family I could sure think of a lot of other worse things to do then what they troops did on camera .Ditto :O Holy P
This is a very interesting and dividing question. Many who know me know that I am not very PC when it comes to things.
I look at it this way. Was what these Marines did Politically Correct? Probably not. Do we as Americans try to hold ourselves to a higher standard? Yes we do.
War is not a GAME. It is not something developed by Parker Borthers or Playskool or Atari. It is life and death for those involved in the actual combat. It is controlled by higher ups usually sitting in a protected office miles away. Some of these higher ups have never been in a life and death situation and yet they get to make the rules of engagement and conduct.
Does the enemy degrade the dead enemy? Yes they do, not always but they do, and this is seen by our military people. This weighs heavy on their minds and during stressful situations they may make a decison that is not 100% popular with the majority of people. Worse things have happened in war.
Do these indiviuals deserve career ending discipline? NO! Do they deserve sensitivity training? Probably not! Do they need to be trained on what to record forever and what not to record? YES. Do we need to keep the media out of the war zone and stop embedding them with military units? YES YES YES.
Do I condone what these Marines did? I can not answer that because I was not there and I do not know what these Marines had to endure prior to this video being made. Maybe they were on patrol in a town recently and someone peed on them from a window. Maybe they saw a fellow military member captured or killed by the enemy. If you were not with this group I do not think you can armchair general what they did.
This is my opinion on this subject. Not everyone will agree with what I believe or say. That is why the United States is so great. Because we are all intitled to our opinions and are allowed to disagree as long as we remain civil.
Please do not flame me for my opinion. If you disagree then please disciss with me your opinion and we will try to come to a mutual understanding.
Thank you Blanca for posing this for us to discuss.
I look at it this way. Was what these Marines did Politically Correct? Probably not. Do we as Americans try to hold ourselves to a higher standard? Yes we do.
War is not a GAME. It is not something developed by Parker Borthers or Playskool or Atari. It is life and death for those involved in the actual combat. It is controlled by higher ups usually sitting in a protected office miles away. Some of these higher ups have never been in a life and death situation and yet they get to make the rules of engagement and conduct.
Does the enemy degrade the dead enemy? Yes they do, not always but they do, and this is seen by our military people. This weighs heavy on their minds and during stressful situations they may make a decison that is not 100% popular with the majority of people. Worse things have happened in war.
Do these indiviuals deserve career ending discipline? NO! Do they deserve sensitivity training? Probably not! Do they need to be trained on what to record forever and what not to record? YES. Do we need to keep the media out of the war zone and stop embedding them with military units? YES YES YES.
Do I condone what these Marines did? I can not answer that because I was not there and I do not know what these Marines had to endure prior to this video being made. Maybe they were on patrol in a town recently and someone peed on them from a window. Maybe they saw a fellow military member captured or killed by the enemy. If you were not with this group I do not think you can armchair general what they did.
This is my opinion on this subject. Not everyone will agree with what I believe or say. That is why the United States is so great. Because we are all intitled to our opinions and are allowed to disagree as long as we remain civil.
Please do not flame me for my opinion. If you disagree then please disciss with me your opinion and we will try to come to a mutual understanding.
Thank you Blanca for posing this for us to discuss.
RMS2005
Registered
I dint agree with what they done, BUT, it is war and it is dirty and kinda the way I see it is they (us and them) are trying to kill each other and if the winner cares to celebrate however then I, in a way see that as there business. I think it was pretty dumb to video the whole ordeal though. the big disagreement that I have and me and some guys at work had this discussion, some one said yea I woulda done the same thing but if they(taliban) done it to us then thats different. That comment got under my skin cause no matter how anyone on this planet looks at it you cant praise what one race, team, country, military or whatever does and criticize the other, I have PO'ed some people before with me view but every damn person on this planet is as human as you and I and the guys on the other side are trying to keep there butt from getting killed just like or troops are. all in all if someone where trying to kill any one of us posting here and instead the attacker became the victim, there aint no telling what action anyone of us would take at that moment.
09BusaDrvr
Registered
My final thoughts on this...a dead soldier, whichever side, is a horrible sight. It means that every way we have to communicate has failed and young men and women have been put in harms way to deliver that message. I have never had to deal with the bodies I created but, once dead, the fight is over. There is no honor is desecrating the dead, let us treat them how we would hope our soldiers would be treated (even though we know that is not the case)....this is how societies evolve, this is how we lead.
Agree or not with the dead Terrorists position...they chose to make a stand and respect them for that for many in the world do not have that level of courage in their convictions.
Like I said before..snipers are elite soldiers but sometimes that larger COIN strategy escapes them and I can forgive them for that..hopefully we all can.
Agree or not with the dead Terrorists position...they chose to make a stand and respect them for that for many in the world do not have that level of courage in their convictions.
Like I said before..snipers are elite soldiers but sometimes that larger COIN strategy escapes them and I can forgive them for that..hopefully we all can.
Good post. Just one comment though. I think it was another soldier not an embedded reporter who videotaped it. Not sure who originally posted it online?
You made a great and sad point. All other means of communication have failed and it is down to killing each other. And another, even in death we should respect the dead. Throughout history the victors have done everything you can possibly imagine to their defeated enemies. Even living POWs have been butchered and maimed. Go farther back and enemy captives would be sacrificed to the victors gods to recieve blessings or killed for sport or tortured to death or worked to death as a slave. Sometimes dead would have their heads chopped off and put on pikes. War and the human race is brutal but we as Americans in this day and age should respect the enemy dead because quite often it is our dead out there too. Peeing on them after a heated battle I can understand but anything more I can't. I would hope to receive any of my dead relatives or fallen comrades in good shape so I could bring them home and give them proper burial. We don't need to be giving the enemy anymore reasons to mutilate our dead.
Kcmarine
Registered
8 years in the marines, with 3 tours over seas, with a combat MOS, I learned one thing from seeing my brothers fall. In time of war there is no compassion towards your enemy. When you spend so much time with your brothers in arms for so long and then in a blink of an eye you see them covered in blood just laying there You stop seeing your enemy as a person. All you can think of is killing as many as you can before your tour is up. Not many people see the dark side of war, look into it's eyes and not be changed. For the people who says wow there so wrong to do this, you have no clue if they lost brothers and sisters in that war. I would love to put them in a room with the guys who they shot up. And only then you would see how much hate they have towards you. Many of them shooting our troops just for a pay off cos some warlord has a price on our troops heads. Wake up people. This is a war and this happens. You think they was saying how bad it was when they took our guys and cut them a part and hong them for all to see and even show it on there TV shows saying death to all Americans. Even none combat people they have killed. That KBR truck driver that was beheaded on live TV. But the American people don't get shown the dark side of what they do to our troops and people that are none combat personal. They use kids to fight there wars that are not even 13 years old. They plant kids with IED so when our troops go to help they blow them up just to kill our troops. We are fighting people that don't care if children die, even women. I'm purring to much feelings into this so I'll end it here...
Having served for 20 years and having been shot at I simply can not condone what these guys did. They people that were killed were fighting with the same vigor and dedication for what they believed in as we do. Not saying agree with what they were fighting for at all, but isn't killing them enough? All those Marines did was discredit themselves, the Corps and their country as well as add fuel to the situation. You guys sit here and say you didn't have a problem with it. How would you feel if we lost some of our men and a video went out of the enemy pissing on their bodies? In an already hostile environment how did that action do anything to help the situation. If there were civilians sitting on the fence about which side to support, where are they now? They are supporting their countrymen that's where. I lost friends in '91 and '92 and I am here to tell you. If I had seen something like this happening to one of my friends that had been taken, it would be my life's goal to exact justice on the people responsible.
Don
Don
Im pretty sure those taliban people have done worse atrocities than simply peeing on people, like cutting off peoples heads on film and all that crap. Were the marines dumb in letting someone videotape it, yes extremely. But to make it so over the top in the media is just ridiculous. Im sure there are FAR worse things they could have done to those bodies. Was it a dumb choice yes, do I see anything wrong with it......no. Just my 2 cents
Blanca I agree that this video was made by a fellow Marine or other service member. I am sorry if it sounded like I was implying that it was an embedded report who made this. But the media has made questionable video of things our service members have done in the past as well as showing our troops landing duirng an invasion. These things need to stop in my opinion.
War is not pretty and there is no way to make it pretty or FAIR! This is not the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, NASCAR or any other game/sport where rules are made or tweaked to give everyone involved a fair shot. War is life and death plain and simple. There is not always a winner with war either. But in war things are done to help one's side prevail in a battle. Sometimes ( not always) these things that are done are not pretty, nice or even right but they are done to give the team who did it an advantage in hopes of preventing more loss of life. These things do not need to be shown to the average person sitting comfortably or safely in their home that is protected by those out there trying to keep them protected or give the same freedoms to others that we take for granted.
Darn, I was going to only make a short reply Blanca but got side tracked as usual. Sorry brother
EDIT-
On a side note. PLEASE DO NOT take this post as support for our involvement in Afghanistan or any other skirmish we may be involved with. That is another subject to be addressed in private with myself. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with our involvment in this war here in this thread. I am not confirming or denying that I feel our involvment is right or wrong here.
Thank you
War is not pretty and there is no way to make it pretty or FAIR! This is not the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, NASCAR or any other game/sport where rules are made or tweaked to give everyone involved a fair shot. War is life and death plain and simple. There is not always a winner with war either. But in war things are done to help one's side prevail in a battle. Sometimes ( not always) these things that are done are not pretty, nice or even right but they are done to give the team who did it an advantage in hopes of preventing more loss of life. These things do not need to be shown to the average person sitting comfortably or safely in their home that is protected by those out there trying to keep them protected or give the same freedoms to others that we take for granted.
Darn, I was going to only make a short reply Blanca but got side tracked as usual. Sorry brother
EDIT-
On a side note. PLEASE DO NOT take this post as support for our involvement in Afghanistan or any other skirmish we may be involved with. That is another subject to be addressed in private with myself. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with our involvment in this war here in this thread. I am not confirming or denying that I feel our involvment is right or wrong here.
Thank you
I became a US Citizen in 2006, did two years military in my country of birth and served part time for around fifteen years after that. During that period I was in a war zone for about 6 months, know what it feels like to get shot at, know what it feels like to shoot someone else. My service was mandatory, no choice had to do it, so did all my fellow citizens. We did it with pride. There was no financial benefit in doing this service, it was something we had to do in the interest of our country, it was legislated by law.
So, here are my opinions.
1.) We all have different values, I have no right to say my values are right and those who did the pee thing had values which were wrong. So, no judgement here.
2.) Shame on whoever had the camera!!!!! What he did to make that public was really letting his fellow Marines down as well as the whole Marine corps.
3.) We have to look at the damage done, as these facts now open in the public will be exploited by all anti Americans and the negative sentiment against the US will increase. This is not good politically, financially and is not in our global interests.
4.) The military needs to do whatever is necessary to repair this damage, including how they treat the individuals involved. Not an easy decision, but the outcome will affect our country. We leave that decision to our leaders and have to stand together with the outcome.
So, here are my opinions.
1.) We all have different values, I have no right to say my values are right and those who did the pee thing had values which were wrong. So, no judgement here.
2.) Shame on whoever had the camera!!!!! What he did to make that public was really letting his fellow Marines down as well as the whole Marine corps.
3.) We have to look at the damage done, as these facts now open in the public will be exploited by all anti Americans and the negative sentiment against the US will increase. This is not good politically, financially and is not in our global interests.
4.) The military needs to do whatever is necessary to repair this damage, including how they treat the individuals involved. Not an easy decision, but the outcome will affect our country. We leave that decision to our leaders and have to stand together with the outcome.
All good responses and I'm happy to see some disagree with others politely.
I also want to thank everyone for staying on topic and not letting it dwindle into a Muslim bashing argument.
Let's just hope some other 'breaking news' happens and distracts the media. Slow news week they have nothing else to talk about
I also want to thank everyone for staying on topic and not letting it dwindle into a Muslim bashing argument.
Let's just hope some other 'breaking news' happens and distracts the media. Slow news week they have nothing else to talk about
I'm pretty indifferent to what happened; blame that on whatever you'd like, but I'd say it's likely due to the simple fact that I've watched and seen way more than many here to show just how sad the human condition is, the horrific things we do to one another, and that's just me surfing the web or reading way too much bad news. I can't begin to imagine what our military has seen and endured, so I can't comment on all of the possible reasons for them doing what they did.
I have to wonder though, in this day and age, WHY do people do this stuff knowing pics are being taken, vids are recording and that it will eventually go viral? I think that floors me more than anything
If you're going to do anything questionable, make sure there's no technology around recording your non-PC actions 
Just sayin' 
I have to wonder though, in this day and age, WHY do people do this stuff knowing pics are being taken, vids are recording and that it will eventually go viral? I think that floors me more than anything
If you're going to do anything questionable, make sure there's no technology around recording your non-PC actions Just sayin' 
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