Can we talk about this without turning it into an argument?

[Blanca BusaLess]

Marines Piss on Taliban Dead: Understanding War Crimes

Many military members here. Id like to hear your opinion on this?
Not the brightest thing to do when a camera is around but it is war right?
The shower receivers were most likely I guess just trying to kill them or some of their fellow troops. War dehumanizes folks. I can see its not what we may represent. Doesn't represent the code of conduct for Marines but again c'mon given the chance those dead guys would most certainly have been dancing on our guys dead bodies. Is it really a big deal? Historically things like this have happened on both sides in all conflicts. Anyone remember Scott Helveston? Black Water contractors and his buddies in Fallujah burned cut up and hung from a bridge? I know different country but there have been atrocities committed in Afg.

If no cameras were around and you had just offed some guy trying to off you would you do same?


Like adults I just want to discuss this. No insults or innuendo associating all members of the military with these guys. It's a touchy current topic so I'm curious. RusselJ, Sportcustoms, any others? Your op?

 

[lil charlie]

Not a smart move with the camara around...We have to be PC even in wart times. That said....I would have done the same!

 

[twotonevert]

This one stays clean or it will be removed. Just a friendly reminder.

 

[skydivr]

Once they are dead, they are no longer the enemy, they are some mother's son. So, no, I wouldn't do it our allow it by any member of my command. If I caught one of my soldiers having done this, his career would be over or he's a private again as it's totally against good order and discipline. They knew better and did it anyway. NOT because I am repulsed by it (funny how peeing on the enemy is somehow worse than killing them), but because it is against GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE.

Is it a war crime punishable by prison? I'm not sure it merits that level of punishment IMHO. Depending on the soldier's rank and record til that moment when they made a bone-headed mistake.

However, I would consider the following as having legitamate PSYOPS value (while it may be considered an affront to our enemy equal to or great than the above):

- Cremate the dead and give the ashes back to the family. The PSYOPS value is that they believe the dead can't go to heaven if cremated.
- Let PSYOPS 'encourage' the rumor that the red tip of the bullet is pig's blood - again, no heaven.

What is considered totally wrong in a clinical, second-guess situation that you've had time to think about, is an entirely different matter when you are scared, hungry, hot or cold, tired, and somebody just killed your comrade right in front of you after a huge firefight when you didn't know from one second or the next if you were going to be dead or worse, captured and tortured.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Skydivr would cremating them not be more of an insult and create more hatred than what they did?
Now they may stink a lil but tradition can still be honored

And TwoTone I do want it to stay clean so we can talk about it.

 

[Busa1166]

Can't condone it.

Never been shot at either. Never been asked to go somewhere to get shot at either So can't relate or imagine what kind affect spending a bunch of years in that kind of atmosphere would have been doing.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Can't condone it.

Never been shot at either. Never been asked to go somewhere to get shot at either So can't relate or imagine what kind affect spending a bunch of years in that kind of atmosphere would have been doing.

That's why I asked. Curious to hear from the ones who have.

 

[Mr Brown]

It is one of those situations that while I find it repugnant, I wasn't in the shoes of those marines. It's easy to sit at home behind a computer and condemn them for what they did, but I wasn't there being shot at with them. I can see how defiling a corpse could occur in a war situation.
I think that at very least they should have known better, and that somebody or everybody as it turned out) was gonna see it at it would be frowned upon publicly by the command structure. I mean the commanders can hardly condone such actions out loud no matter what they may privately think.

 

[skydivr]

Skydivr would cremating them not be more of an insult and create more hatred than what they did?

Like I said (and i edited my post after you responded), MAYBE. BUT, it has HUGE PSYOPS value. You are fighting an enemy that, for the most part, is less educated than a US Kindergartner, can't read, and the only thing that makes him fight is that he thinks he's going to Heaven (which is a much better place than he's ever seen). Take out the Heaven part, and you take out a HUGE part of his will to fight, and you didn't have to lay a finger on him to do it.

It worked in the Phillipine Insurrrection. Brilliant.

P.S. I never saw a shot fired in anger either, but I did have to contemplate and train for it.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Keith I don't think you give them enough credit education wise.
Many are well educated and eloquent in thoughts and writings. Many are not. But not all are cave dwelling idgets. I also dont think for a second the only reason they fight is because they are gonna go to heaven. Their religion as ours tells them they will go to heaven regardless of how many enemy they have killed. They fight because of the opposite trains of thought they have from us. To them we are their enemy, invaded and trying to conquer them we are. You and I would do same if the Talibs invaded us.

That said. To your point about the psyops. I'm seeing that this is the very reason our govt is so upset about this is because it may fuel more of their fire. So by cremating them and not allowing them to go to heaven would that not great more hatred and more will to fight the ones who've insulted their tradition so greatly?
Is that not more disrespect than peeing on them?

 

[BusaBret]

The following is my only response to this:

While they do not deserve a medal for what they did nor a pat on the back, they do not deserve jail time nor a dishonorable discharge. Punishment? Absolutely!! But not the type that ends their career.

 

[09BusaDrvr]

I talked to my young cadets about this on Friday...we, as leaders, cannot and do not have the luxury of working with pure emotion. I will equate it to college football players excessively celebrating after a touchdown...stupid and it costs your team. While what they did is horrible and should not be condoned at any level (recorded or not) I sympathize with the marines in that they did not mean for this to have far reaching strategic effects.
We all have different ways of handling the stress of war..some are quiet, some go back after a mission and play xbox and shoot more people..these guys chose to take it out the dead (bad choice) but thats how they did it. Its a leaders job to ensure your soldiers have good avenues to vent that stress.
As far as punishment...don't know enough of the background to say but jail...no, not unless this has been a pattern.

 

[kitchener rider]

and what the taliban does to people it captures is politically correct? dont think so. its war and even though what these guys did is disgusting, get over it and move on. Its time to stop being so touchy feely over everything.

 

[O Holy P]

Different strokes for different folks. War is hell and should be no holds barred. If I were killed by an enemy I wouldn't expect any less...you're just that ... the enemy, piss away. What do I care if it were me, I'd be dead.

 

[captain]

It is one of those situations that while I find it repugnant, I wasn't in the shoes of those marines. It's easy to sit at home behind a computer and condemn them for what they did, but I wasn't there being shot at with them. I can see how defiling a corpse could occur in a war situation.
I think that at very least they should have known better, and that somebody or everybody as it turned out) was gonna see it at it would be frowned upon publicly by the command structure. I mean the commanders can hardly condone such actions out loud no matter what they may privately think.

Agreed... It's hard to go from shoot bang bang to lets hold hands..... A lot of emotion.. I don't agree with it BUT I understand it...

 

[skydivr]

I talked to my young cadets about this on Friday...we, as leaders, cannot and do not have the luxury of working with pure emotion. I will equate it to college football players excessively celebrating after a touchdown...stupid and it costs your team. While what they did is horrible and should not be condoned at any level (recorded or not) I sympathize with the marines in that they did not mean for this to have far reaching strategic effects.
We all have different ways of handling the stress of war..some are quiet, some go back after a mission and play xbox and shoot more people..these guys chose to take it out the dead (bad choice) but thats how they did it. Its a leaders job to ensure your soldiers have good avenues to vent that stress.
As far as punishment...don't know enough of the background to say but jail...no, not unless this has been a pattern.

I agree, great post. As leaders we do not have the latitude to ponder 'what if"s or daydream, and I think that's a great answer for soon to be 2LT's.
----------------------------

Saaid, as I said, great PSYOPS value, but that would be something someone else much higher in the chain of command would decide. We are already making them mad by killing them. But if I were brainstorming with the boss for a way to take the fight out of the enemy, I'd certainly consider it an option. Just wouldn't put it on Youtube....

Certainly not saying all of them are uneducated, but a lot of them are still stuck dead in the middle of the 12th Century, and I'm talking about the foot soldiers more than the leaders. Very wiley and crafty bunch with 30+ years of continual combat operations makes you a seasoned, dedicated aversary.

 

[Warchild]

Perhaps these guys (all Marine Snipers, BTW) were just following orders.....

SGT: "Nice work, Marines, a few more dead Taliban for Allah to sort through."

Sniper #1: "What should we do with the bodies, sir?"

SGT: "Piss on 'em. We have to secure that ridge by 0800."



In all seriousness, this kind of thing has happened in all wars. Here, there appears to have been a failure along the training/indoctrinating path. You would have thought that all combat ground forces would have received serious-ass briefings after the Abu Ghraib prison incident to NOT engage in questionable activities, and definitely not photograph/record them!

Thus, it was also a failure by these Snipers to engage in common sense... to wit: video-recording this incident. Peeing on the enemy aside, the other monumental lack of good judgement and decision-making was to actually create evidence of engaging in questionable activities. WTF?! The videographer needs a serious pillow party.

As skydivr correctly observes, the PsyOps factor can be huge.... I know, because I have participated in it before. Wars are won by violence and degradation of the enemy. Negotiations are discussed with a knee in your enemy's chest and a bayonet at his throat. Here is what we did:

In the first Gulf War, I would have my Plane Captains have gallons of old pork/bacon grease hauled up from the galleys below, so we could slather the tips of our Mk82 iron bombs with the nasty stuff. We would launch those A-6Es off the bow, heavily laden with pork product. If you are a Muslim Believer, and you get off'ed by one of our bacon-bombs, then it's no paradise and no 72 virgins for you , Achmed! :agree: :agree: :agree:

What made our job so righteous is that the Psych Warfare guys would photograph these bacon-bombs, and have tons of leaflets printed up, complete with a helpful, thorough description of what the photograph entailed, and the leaflets were then dropped over enemy territory. We were told that that this truly petrified the Revolutionary Guards...

Yep, war is hell.... and it's really bad if you are on the wrong side.

 

[880jedi]

"What happens on The Mile, stays on The Mile." Never allow anyone to record your actions in that envoirnment. Let this be a lesson, in War, and in civilian life.

 

[frisbee]

Stupid thing to do in front of a camera, but I have no problem with it

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

I thought Military snipers were supposed to be the cream of the crop? Highly intelligent and able to make detailed calculations? Smart enough to know when to 'send it' or not? Them letting someone videotape it is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of or seen. Search YouTube for it as I won't post it but in very beginning videographer says 'I I think someone's......' and they all look over. Not sure if they were worried about being seen by fellow troops or worried about more enemy coming? Then toward very end again he makes a comment along the lines of 'and it's all on.....' like 'it's all on video' while they are all laughing.

Were they just in a firefight and still suffering adrenaline rushes along with survival shock? Laughing to try to shake off how close they just came to their maker? Or as snipers did they take these guys out from far away and then after walk slowly over chuckle and whizz? Either way in the end the act appears bad but it is more understandable to me if it was just moments after a battle and they were still a bit hyped up.