Until Jimmy set them free..............Enlighten me ? Both Bush served.......Not that it matters post Jimmy...........
A question of patriotism...
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Until Jimmy set them free..............Enlighten me ? Both Bush served.......Not that it matters post Jimmy...........
SFC RICK
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Ahhhhhhh! There's the rub!
Getting people to understand the clear and present danger to their lives while the sword isn't yet upon their throats is the real problem.
It may not even dawn upon those same people even as the blade is pressed into their flesh.
Sad, but true.....
lease:
insane
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Gentlemen:
Even if I am alien to this discussion, and my country lately has a record of international defection (shaming at least half the voting population), and we are not the superpower USA is, I'll throw my view: most democracies have in their Constitution (the Law of Laws) something like this (from our own Constitution, voted in 1978 after Franco demise):
Section 2 Rights and Duties of Citizens
Article 30 [Military, Civilian, Emergency Duties]
(1) Citizens have the right and the duty to defend Spain.
(2) The law shall determine the military obligations of Spaniards and shall regulate, with all due guarantees, conscientious objection as well as other causes for exemption from compulsory military service, and it may, when appropriate, impose a substitute social service.
(3) A civilian service may be established for the accomplishment of objectives of general interest.
(4) The duties of citizens in cases of serious risk, catastrophe, or public calamity may be regulated by law.
According to dictionary (Webster's), a patriot is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests". So people that refuse the draft is obviously not prepared to fulfil their duties with their Country, does not support its interests, so I believe is unpatriotic. The fact that politicians are corrupt and inept, and lead countries in an unpatriotic way, is a different issue...
Interestingly enough, back in the day, if during the military service you show exceptional motivation, performance and leadership, you get what is called "licencia absoluta", so you were allowed NOT to go to war if mobilized. I suppose that this regulation took for granted that we would volunteer anyway
PS: since some of you -including projekt- can read Spanish, find below the first paragraph in the source language, sounds nice to me:
1. Los españoles tienen el derecho y el deber de defender a España.
Even if I am alien to this discussion, and my country lately has a record of international defection (shaming at least half the voting population), and we are not the superpower USA is, I'll throw my view: most democracies have in their Constitution (the Law of Laws) something like this (from our own Constitution, voted in 1978 after Franco demise):
Section 2 Rights and Duties of Citizens
Article 30 [Military, Civilian, Emergency Duties]
(1) Citizens have the right and the duty to defend Spain.
(2) The law shall determine the military obligations of Spaniards and shall regulate, with all due guarantees, conscientious objection as well as other causes for exemption from compulsory military service, and it may, when appropriate, impose a substitute social service.
(3) A civilian service may be established for the accomplishment of objectives of general interest.
(4) The duties of citizens in cases of serious risk, catastrophe, or public calamity may be regulated by law.
According to dictionary (Webster's), a patriot is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests". So people that refuse the draft is obviously not prepared to fulfil their duties with their Country, does not support its interests, so I believe is unpatriotic. The fact that politicians are corrupt and inept, and lead countries in an unpatriotic way, is a different issue...
Interestingly enough, back in the day, if during the military service you show exceptional motivation, performance and leadership, you get what is called "licencia absoluta", so you were allowed NOT to go to war if mobilized. I suppose that this regulation took for granted that we would volunteer anyway
PS: since some of you -including projekt- can read Spanish, find below the first paragraph in the source language, sounds nice to me:
1. Los españoles tienen el derecho y el deber de defender a España.
I missed VN by only a few years.. I knew a good many guys that came back from Viet Nam totally screwed up or not at all...
Fact is that our govt has a notorious reputation for letting the armed forced be cut back to critical levels and then going "oh chit" when they are needed.. At that point many are trained (and not all that well) then thrown out into battle..
Every US citizen "should" serve no less than 2 years community duty..
go through BT and then do something for the country... Problem is most in that group today do not even understand what it is to go without a meal, cell phone or a roof over their heads..
They have no idea what was given up to assure them of these taken for granted items...
Wont even go into the treatment the Viet Vets got by the liberals on their return... was pretty sad as a kid to see them spit at, cussed and bashed...
Projekt
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And, he set them free because he knew the truth behind the war. He knew the propaganda machine was in full swing to condemn those who chose to refuse service in that action. Good going Pres Carter, it is a shame that the warmongering establishment succeeded in preventing your re-election.
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Projekt
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Que lastima que no es tan simple en los Estados Unidos.
It is unfortunate that things aren't that simple in the United States.
Projekt
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All I'm going to contribute to this is to say that if more of the population would have had to balls to do thier duty and swear in of their own free will, then the draft wouldnt have been necessary in the first place.
That is all.......
It is hardly the bonafide duty of an American man to go defend some mosquito infested backwater in the former Indochine..
Im a 12yr veteran and volunteered for most of my tours in OIF OEF. IMO, I think when it comes to war, it depends...if your a draft dodger on a war that does not benefit your country or that is straight wrong and part of a corrupt agenda then id be one too.....know if its straight defending american people interest...not politician interests....and defending our land....then fight to die....
+100
The Spain stuff is pretty good and I think is right..
Mr Brown
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I have made this comment before, and firmly believe it: There used to be a time when the children of the ruling class were the ones leading troops from the front lines. This was the case all throughout history (the kings and queens of europe would themselves have armor and fight) until something changed. It was seen as cowardly for people of privilege to have non-combative roles in war, or not to participate. Seems to me that this attitude changed during Vietnam. People of influence used this to keep their children from fighting and let the poor kids go do the dirty work. I truly believe any leader would think more carefully about sending troops somewhere if they knew their own children would be leading the charge, so to speak. I find it very interesting that most of the "hawks' that urged Bush into the war that we are involved in had not seen combat themselves, while those that had fought or sent men to die urged restraint, most notably Colin Powell.
I too believe in two years of national service for every citizen, if not in the military, then in a civil capacity. There are many ways in which a young person would benefit from doing things for others.
Those who volunteer to join the armed forces are to be commended, but I resent the idea that those who have a moral objection to fighting a war are somehow less "manly". Those who use violence as a last resort should not be confused with those who are scared to use it. I personally enjoy a good fight, yet as I have grown older I realize that it is far better to attempt to use reasoning and intelligence to defuse a situation, than to cave somebody's face in. I know from experience both options will work, but a non-violent solution is usually more beneficial to both parties. Nobody gets hurt, and I don't have to go to jail....
I think that an instance of dodging the draft would have to be evaluated on its individual merits and circumstances, rather than throwing a blanket title over all them and once.
I too believe in two years of national service for every citizen, if not in the military, then in a civil capacity. There are many ways in which a young person would benefit from doing things for others.
Those who volunteer to join the armed forces are to be commended, but I resent the idea that those who have a moral objection to fighting a war are somehow less "manly". Those who use violence as a last resort should not be confused with those who are scared to use it. I personally enjoy a good fight, yet as I have grown older I realize that it is far better to attempt to use reasoning and intelligence to defuse a situation, than to cave somebody's face in. I know from experience both options will work, but a non-violent solution is usually more beneficial to both parties. Nobody gets hurt, and I don't have to go to jail....
I think that an instance of dodging the draft would have to be evaluated on its individual merits and circumstances, rather than throwing a blanket title over all them and once.
after all your talk about "disadvantaged" or the "down trodden"
You are always up for supporting or helping minority people.. what does geography have to do with someone getting discriminated against?
si-lo
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Maybe because of the definition of what a patriot is. Not all that difficult to figure out.
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriōtēs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patēr father
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriōtēs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patēr father
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
Projekt
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This is simply your errored perception. To me, it is about not exploiting the "disadvantaged", the "down-trodden" or the "minorities". You know the real reason for the Vietnam war was a conflict of ideologies, played out on a down-trodden, disadvantaged people and was merely seen as a playing field by both sides.
well since I'm paying taxes then draft shouldn't be an issue figuratively speaking of course. However I agree with Projekt on this (not that it really matters) Bear in mind I would gladly fight alongside of our troops when the war is here on our soil and or justified reasonably (I'm simply asking for clarity in this aspect). War is justified simply by profit it's all about the money now as opposed to our freedom. If you think for two seconds the people in charge give a rats a** about anything other than how this will improve their bank account you have another thing coming.
The whole freedom plug is just propaganda now used to keep our focus elsewhere and not pay attention to the fact that 90% of the time we have no real business in someone else's backyard. It's unfortunate to realize these things as freedom used to mean something other than Dollar signs.
neither of us were even alive at that time, therefore, we have absolutely no idea what it was about. From the comments you've posted though, I can only speculate that you would have been one of those running for the border as fast as you could had you been of legal age back then.
Its not now nor has it ever been about the particular fight. For a true American its about helping those in need and heeding the call when this country asks us to. In your thread title you asked about patriotism...well, You've ansered your own question. Patriotism is the exact opposite attitude of what you are currently displaying in this thread.
enlist, don't get drafted. sack up and answer the call to defend your country if necessary.
Projekt
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Nonsense, I would have simply joined the AirForce just like I did when I was fresh out of high school. Happy to be in the rear with the gear. In any case, I would have been too young to be as well informed as I am now.
I think the definition of patriotism should include people who seek the truth behind foreign policy and if seen wrong, demonstrate to protect the "good" American way.
Mr Brown
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While that is certainly one definition of patriotism, I don't think it is THE definition of it.....
Certainly disagreeing with policy or ideology does not make one unpatriotic.
Saw a bumper sticker once that read: I love my country but I fear my government.
X70821466332148063440there is no draft, so why bother starting a thread about it ?
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afterhours
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i think we are in agreement on 90% of the this.....
the one key point seems to be an ideal. what is patriotism?
1. fighting to defend ones country.
2. fighting to further the political agenda of an administration.
is it a citizens responsability to answer the call to service, anytime and everytime your country calls you. no matter what the reason.
since the end of WWII, we have sent young men to die for a politcal agenda. this is the reason for the erosion of trust in our leadership. we are still doing it today, the war on terror? is a result of the foreign policy of the last 40 years.
the one key point seems to be an ideal. what is patriotism?
1. fighting to defend ones country.
2. fighting to further the political agenda of an administration.
is it a citizens responsability to answer the call to service, anytime and everytime your country calls you. no matter what the reason.
since the end of WWII, we have sent young men to die for a politcal agenda. this is the reason for the erosion of trust in our leadership. we are still doing it today, the war on terror? is a result of the foreign policy of the last 40 years.
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