A question of patriotism...
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SFC RICK
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While I disagree with this statement, I do know it's very uncomfortable for draft dodgers to associate to stand with MEN who were not afraid to fight for Freedom and their families.
It's not really fair for the weaker males and it's very harmful to their sense of well-being to be exposed to "Type A" men who share the burden of being the warriors for their society.
History is full of examples about societies that have weakened and been vanquished.
It's just a cycle that gets repeated by the ignorant.
I don't have a lot of time for this, but I will throw a thought out there for consideration/crucifixion.
It is my opinion the only time the draft should be used is when American soil is under direct attack.
Any campaign conducted on foreign soil should require political leadership to pay market rate to recruit and retain servicemembers. We should not have private contractor "soldiers of fortune" fighting alongside regular military yet earning two to three times the pay. There should be no easy out "you are going to serve because we say it's your duty" to drive down wages of those who serve and make it easier for the "dogs of war" to commit our human resources to campaigns elsewhere who could be used for more productive means in the U.S.
"Stop Loss" is another means of keeping the wages of those who choose this job lower than what the free market dictates.
It is my opinion the only time the draft should be used is when American soil is under direct attack.
Any campaign conducted on foreign soil should require political leadership to pay market rate to recruit and retain servicemembers. We should not have private contractor "soldiers of fortune" fighting alongside regular military yet earning two to three times the pay. There should be no easy out "you are going to serve because we say it's your duty" to drive down wages of those who serve and make it easier for the "dogs of war" to commit our human resources to campaigns elsewhere who could be used for more productive means in the U.S.
"Stop Loss" is another means of keeping the wages of those who choose this job lower than what the free market dictates.
So you disagre with the draft for WWI and WWII? Germany, Italy etc never attacked our soil, only Japan.
Takeuon
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But we knew attack was imminent. It was only a matter of time.
I joined the Army (yes, college ROTC) during the start of the Reagan buildup. The end of Vietnam was still very fresh in my father's mind when I told him what I wanted to do. If you think back, we were staring the Russians down at the time. My dad Joined the Air Force and went to Korea during the Korean War, because he knew he would get drafted and wanted to choose his lot, rather than his lot being chose for him; he served his enlistment as an EOD tech, loading bombs (and later, nuclear weapons). He asked me why I was joining; my answer was that I'd rather be in charge and making the choices as an officer, than having someone else make them for me. 26 years later I never regretted it was the best thing I could have ever done.
Going to stick my neck out here a little. GWB may have gotten a deferment for college, but he later voluntarily joined the TXANG and flew a fighter jet. Clinton publicly denounced the war and made a fool of himself. In my mind, not comparable. Some will say GWB knew when he joined the Guard he'd never see action, but I'd ask that question to those now serving in the Guard and Reserve.
It takes a LOT of political will to institute a draft, which means that the country is pretty dang desperate to enact it. If it gets to that point, Those dodging the draft deserve the disdain and scorn of all Americans, because when their country needed them, they turned their back.
The all-volunteer force is working pretty dang good. Pay and benefits are better than the private sector in a lot of instances (and should be to put up with the deployments, wear/tear and risk of life/limb). If we have a draft, it will be because we are desperate.
Going to stick my neck out here a little. GWB may have gotten a deferment for college, but he later voluntarily joined the TXANG and flew a fighter jet. Clinton publicly denounced the war and made a fool of himself. In my mind, not comparable. Some will say GWB knew when he joined the Guard he'd never see action, but I'd ask that question to those now serving in the Guard and Reserve.
It takes a LOT of political will to institute a draft, which means that the country is pretty dang desperate to enact it. If it gets to that point, Those dodging the draft deserve the disdain and scorn of all Americans, because when their country needed them, they turned their back.
The all-volunteer force is working pretty dang good. Pay and benefits are better than the private sector in a lot of instances (and should be to put up with the deployments, wear/tear and risk of life/limb). If we have a draft, it will be because we are desperate.
SFC RICK
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Heck even my great, great, great, grandfather......a long line of them...was drafted in the Revolutionary war BEFORE there was a standing Army.
They didn't get paid much...mostly a promise of land for serving.
Here is his tale of service taken in the 1700's
http://www.southerncampaign.org/pen/w365.pdf
They didn't get paid much...mostly a promise of land for serving.
Here is his tale of service taken in the 1700's
http://www.southerncampaign.org/pen/w365.pdf
Takeuon
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Heck even my great, great, great, grandfather......a long line of them...was drafted in the Revolutionary war BEFORE there was a standing Army.
They didn't get paid much...mostly a promise of land for serving.
Here is his tale of service taken in the 1700's
http://www.southerncampaign.org/pen/w365.pdf
That is so nice that you have that documented piece of family history! I read it all and you have a heritage, a bloodline to be very proud of.
Wish I could find something like that about my lineage.
Right, I agree. I was simply responding to F=MA's post.
While I agree w/ this.....
I also agree w/ this
This could get ugly pretty quick. Jast sayin'.......
+1 I agree with the quotes as you do, I hope members here can voice their opinion an respect each others opinion.
IMO Our elected officials are failing us they have been for some quite some time, serving the interest of those that can best serve them so they can better serve themselves. These people may not place the same value on human life (mine in particular)as they would their own or their families. I will say nothing about the last draft since I have only hear say as to what happened back then. I would jump in front of a bullet or feed some body one to protect my family is that is what is needed. I would not give my life to help some politician get rich. Lets not also forget how well the government takes care of our military personnel.
Iraq/Afghanistan Deployment Tied to Respiratory Illness : Veterans Today - News for U.S. Military Veterans Jobs, VA Benefits, Home Loans, Hospitals & Administration
Let's not forget that there is a difference between government and country. We serve our country, not our government. I know the lines may seem blurred at times, but you are selling yourself short when you look at it any other way. 
dmrowe
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afterhours
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this is an important conversation, that often times does not get discussed due to the immaturity of people. discussion and open debate is one of the greatest things of a democracy or republic. perhaps by reading the views of other someones mind is changed, or opened to another way of looking at things...
the draft is important, so important that the constitution specifies that it is legal. one of the major problem witht the draft were created by us(like everything else). the ability to dodge the draft, is a result of electing people of low moral character. this can be solved simply by stating "no deferments" everyone drafted must go.
second is the "i don't want to fight GW's war for oil"....you can insert any president or cause that you do not agree with. once again we come back to personal responsability, if we elect people of strong moral character and integrity we will not be in "unjust, immoral" wars.
most of the hatred of the draft comes from the fact that we have people we do not trust running the government, and sending our troops into harms way. poor political policies of the late 20th century, starting with the covert sponsorship of an anti Castro revolution in Cuba by Pres.Kennedy...thru Vietnam and now into the Mid-East.
from its beginning a democracy/republic has been built and protected by the citizen, it was a requirement for a athenian man to serve two years in the military, before he was granted his citizenship.....and he was on reserve status until the age of 60.
while i see the positives of an all volunteer army....it must also be recognized that the IDF is conscripted, and they have been known to kick some ass from time to time.
the draft is important, so important that the constitution specifies that it is legal. one of the major problem witht the draft were created by us(like everything else). the ability to dodge the draft, is a result of electing people of low moral character. this can be solved simply by stating "no deferments" everyone drafted must go.
second is the "i don't want to fight GW's war for oil"....you can insert any president or cause that you do not agree with. once again we come back to personal responsability, if we elect people of strong moral character and integrity we will not be in "unjust, immoral" wars.
most of the hatred of the draft comes from the fact that we have people we do not trust running the government, and sending our troops into harms way. poor political policies of the late 20th century, starting with the covert sponsorship of an anti Castro revolution in Cuba by Pres.Kennedy...thru Vietnam and now into the Mid-East.
from its beginning a democracy/republic has been built and protected by the citizen, it was a requirement for a athenian man to serve two years in the military, before he was granted his citizenship.....and he was on reserve status until the age of 60.
while i see the positives of an all volunteer army....it must also be recognized that the IDF is conscripted, and they have been known to kick some ass from time to time.
dmrowe
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Mr. B, every male reaching the age of 18 must still register for the draft. Still have my draft cards from the late 60's & early 70's....
To be clear the Constitution does not directly mention the word "draft" or even the older "conscription," but its authorization for the Congress to "raise and support Armies" is a clear indication of the same concept - to use the resources of the nation to create or man an army.
It is incorrect to say the constitution specifies that it is legal. It has been determined to be legal through various court cases.
That said as I stated in my post I fully agree that is one of those things we do to fully protect our citizenship.
Vietnam was a very unpopular war. Men didnt want to die for nothing or for a war not win-able. Their chances for survival were very low. Moral was low with no support from home. Why do you think it is so "fashionable" or the "right thing" to be a troop supporter? We learned our lesson during vietnam.
WWII was a very popular war. Everyone wanted to help and pitch in. Not many draft dogers from that era.
My point? I think when given a clear objective and purpose for what is being faught for, we will fight to the death. Draft or not.
WWII was a very popular war. Everyone wanted to help and pitch in. Not many draft dogers from that era.
My point? I think when given a clear objective and purpose for what is being faught for, we will fight to the death. Draft or not.
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