I'm a Former U.S. Marine and this just sux..

[JINKSTER]

I truely do know that falling asleep while on watch duty is a capitol no-no but there's nothing like getting yer azz kicked by your own all while hadji trying to kill ya...and this could very well be a case of "Narcolepsy" costing a fellow marine his life via depression..and imho?..the marines truely need a tad more "Psych Awareness/Evals"...and now 3 other marines will be prosecuted and sentenced.

3 face hazing charges after Marine commits suicide - Yahoo! News

[Blanca BusaLess]

Hmmm...?
He was sleeping on guard so it definitely puts others at risk. No argument there.
I'm not in nor have I ever served so I can't say what the appropriate action should be but a few whacks and maybe a boot to his butt once or twice would be ok with me. The rest of what they did to him I don't know about.

[Squirrel]

After reading the description of what they did I think it qualifies as Hazing, without question. I wouldnt feel comfortable standing there watching someone do that to one of my Marines, so that tells me it probably isnt okay to do. The pouring of sand on his face was over the top, and the kicking in the head was probably over as well, even if he had his kevlar on. The incentive exercise would have been okay if a snco was there, and the administering nco was also doing the exercises. Kinda hurts to read about this although I do understand the anger the accused Marines would have been feeling at the time.

[Busa1166]

Repeatedly falling asleep ??? Not a military man, not a shrink but I don't he offed himself because of the depression from being hazed. I would think his depression came because he can't stay awake on watch and th thought of getting all his friends and fellow Marines killed was to much.


Can't even imagine what these Marines are going through, they stuck with this guy over there that may end up getting them all killed and there is nothing they can do about it ??? Whats more nothing thier command do about it???

Sounds like they got those Marines swiming in quicksand :down:

[chrisjp]

wow.... im not sure what to say.... im more leaning towards excessive mabey but in my mind justified expressing harshly thier frustration... We all know "blanket partys" exsisted... It gets the point across... Man up!!

[ogre]

agreed. take your licks, learn your lesson, and move on.

[skydivr]

Reminds me of a movie i once saw...shameful.

[proud dad]

This was back in 09.It doesn't tell everything the 4 Staff Sgt's did to this kid.It's always much worse than they tell.It breaks moral with the other men very bad.He was only 19 days out of AIT training.His only fault was that he was young and there for the first time.
4 GIs Charged With Hazing Suicide Soldier - Ashamed private later shot himself in portable toilet

[Schexy1]

This is not hazing unless the Marines, and the rest of the military, have a different definition for hazing than the rest of the world. I think it was an attempt at motivation that went too far.

Regardless, it is sad that one person is dead and others are facing charges.

[kitchener rider]

thats pretty sad... its not hazing... its assault and battery and they deserve jail time. marines or not, your kicking someone in the head, your a douchebag! one wrong kick and could have been murder

[papi_ocho]

I've been a Marine a long time.

Boot camp gets you ready. Physically/mentally

MCT/SOI explains why be ready and how to "fight" the enemy.

MOS school shows you how to do your part so the big green machine can keep kicking in doors and taking names

I can't begin to explain why something like would happen. But I guarantee it's not unheard of nor is it the worst thing happening.

I can also guarantee that if the fear of being attached and killed by the enemy could not keep him vigilant, then he fell asleep during all of his initial training highlighted above. He shouldn't of walked across the parade deck to claim that title.

There is no way for a JR leader guess if a even more JR Marine is mentaly fit for the rigors of a deployment. There are signs that experince can teach. But without supervision they are never identified.

For an officer to say that he saw nothing wrong is just BS. Not fair to any of the Marines living or deceased. An intervention would have saved a life.

A review of the watch schedual was in order. Maybe the Marine was just plain tired. If he was standing a perimeter post at night alone then there was already a problem. Also anyone that is standing said post is part of the interior guard force. Traditionally they do not leave the wire. These Marines are there to keep that base secure.

Lastly there are way to many distractions "in country"

These young Marines stand 8 on 16 off. 8 on 8 off. Sometimes worse. After 8 long hours of sitting a fighting position instead of getting some chow and getting some sleep and getting ready for their next chance to defend their base and keep their fellow Marine safe from enemy attack, much like the Marine he relieved before home was doing. They go play xbox and play station, jump on the phone to talk with susy who is already doing jodi, get on the internet and shop for parts they are going to buy for their hayabusa, jeep, civic, mustang, skyline, bmw, f150 on and on. If you don't believe it's happening read this very forum. Count how many service members are deployed and feeling the rush of riding thru those of us that are living it. How many come back and blow their load on a turbo, 240/330 kit, chrome, etc.

This is never ending. Seat belts came because someone died, and airbags came, and helmets came, and homeland security came.

Marines went but never came. Something WILL come of this. Something like the first post states. Those Marines I've been a Marine a long time.

Boot camp gets you ready. Physically/mentally

MCT/SOI explains why be ready and how to "fight" the enemy.

MOS school shows you how to do your part so the big green machine can keep kicking in doors and taking names

I can't begin to explain why something like would happen. But I guarantee it's not unheard of nor is it the worst thing happening.

I can also guarantee that if the fear of being attached and killed by the enemy could not keep him vigilant, then he fell asleep during all of his initial training highlighted above. He shouldn't of walked across the parade deck to claim that title.

There is no way for a JR leader guess if a even more JR Marine is mentaly fit for the rigors of a deployment. There are signs that experince can teach. But without supervision they are never identified.

For an officer to say that he saw nothing wrong is just BS. Not fair to any of the Marines living or deceased. An intervention would have saved a life.

A review of the watch schedual was in order. Maybe the Marine was just plain tired. If he was standing a perimeter post at night alone then there was already a problem. Also anyone that is standing said post is part of the interior guard force. Traditionally they do not leave the wire. These Marines are there to keep that base secure.

Lastly there are way to many distractions "in country"

These young Marines stand 8 on 16 off. 8 on 8 off. Sometimes worse. After 8 long hours of sitting a fighting position instead of getting some chow and getting some sleep and getting ready for their next chance to defend their base and keep their fellow Marine safe from enemy attack, much like the Marine he relieved before home was doing. They go play xbox and play station, jump on the phone to talk with susy who is already doing jodi, get on the internet and shop for parts they are going to buy for their hayabusa, jeep, civic, mustang, skyline, bmw, f150 on and on. If you don't believe it's happening read this very forum. Count how many service members are deployed and feeling the rush of riding thru those of us that are living it. How many come back and blow their load on a turbo, 240/330 kit, chrome, etc.

This is never ending. Seat belts came because someone died, and airbags came, and helmets came, and homeland security came.

Marines went but never came. Something WILL come of this. Something like the first post states. Those Marines WILL be held accountable. The Marine Corps WIL continue to get softer and gentler. And we WILL fall!



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Sent from my super-duper wack tmobile device using tapatalk.

[dogmanpro]

He was lucky at the time they only opened up a can of whipa**. It's obvious he wasn't cut out to be a marine.

[raydog]

Wow, strong incident, strong reactions. Sure, a lot of under the radar stuff but for those who suggest, "he got what he deserves, war is hell, etc" I would say that the real problem is the oversite at the unit. Chain of command doesn't begin with O1, it begins with the NCO's in your unit. Before I became an NCO, I looked to Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sgts, Gunnys on up for guidance and leadership. Nowhere in the UCMJ does does beating the s*** out of a subordinate exist. Nor does the authorization to "look the other way" exist. There is a mechanism to relieve a Marine of his post and a system of remediation....if that doesn't work, he gets shipped away. I've seen it a few times in action.
You know, in NCO leadership school, I remember being taught that no matter what a subordinate does, look to his direct supervisor for lack of leadership....just food for thought. Semper Fi, Doyle

[Blanca BusaLess]

Good posts Papi and Raydog.

[Troppo]

Wow, strong incident, strong reactions. Sure, a lot of under the radar stuff but for those who suggest, "he got what he deserves, war is hell, etc" I would say that the real problem is the oversite at the unit. Chain of command doesn't begin with O1, it begins with the NCO's in your unit. Before I became an NCO, I looked to Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sgts, Gunnys on up for guidance and leadership. Nowhere in the UCMJ does does beating the s*** out of a subordinate exist. Nor does the authorization to "look the other way" exist. There is a mechanism to relieve a Marine of his post and a system of remediation....if that doesn't work, he gets shipped away. I've seen it a few times in action.
You know, in NCO leadership school, I remember being taught that no matter what a subordinate does, look to his direct supervisor for lack of leadership....just food for thought. Semper Fi, Doyle

Well said.

Spot on.

A leadership failure.

[DaCol.]

Well, I've seen other Armys around the World EXECUTE soldiers who went to sleep while on guard duty in Combat Situations (Not advocating this). But what should have happen is that his Unit Shun him, move him to a NON important task (BORING) and if he had done this numerous times, give him an ARTICAL 15 and TRANSFER him to a job of counting Potato's in the Mess Hall for a while. Then if his Unit STILL doesn't TRUST him, send him HOME !

[The Tekken]

Wow, strong incident, strong reactions. Sure, a lot of under the radar stuff but for those who suggest, "he got what he deserves, war is hell, etc" I would say that the real problem is the oversite at the unit. Chain of command doesn't begin with O1, it begins with the NCO's in your unit. Before I became an NCO, I looked to Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sgts, Gunnys on up for guidance and leadership. Nowhere in the UCMJ does does beating the s*** out of a subordinate exist. Nor does the authorization to "look the other way" exist. There is a mechanism to relieve a Marine of his post and a system of remediation....if that doesn't work, he gets shipped away. I've seen it a few times in action.
You know, in NCO leadership school, I remember being taught that no matter what a subordinate does, look to his direct supervisor for lack of leadership....just food for thought. Semper Fi, Doyle

This is the best reply by far. If the kid can't cut it discharge him. It's one thing to be jumped on by your peers, quite another to be set upon by superiors who should be leading by example. I did not become an NCO during my time with the Royals, but I had nothing but respect for most of them. It's a harsh profession admittedly, but behaviour like this from NCOs should not be tolerated.

[raydog]

Well, I've seen other Armys around the World EXECUTE soldiers who went to sleep while on guard duty in Combat Situations (Not advocating this). But what should have happen is that his Unit Shun him, move him to a NON important task (BORING) and if he had done this numerous times, give him an ARTICAL 15 and TRANSFER him to a job of counting Potato's in the Mess Hall for a while. Then if his Unit STILL doesn't TRUST him, send him HOME !

Are you a Colonel or past Colonel in our Armed Forces? If so, with all due respect, I'm glad I never had to work for you. The unit commander's I've worked for would never allow a Marine to be punished PRIOR to a hearing ("shunning him", assign him to a "punishment job, etc.). BTW, "Artical 15" is spelled "Article 15". "Then, if his unit still doesn't trust him, send him home"......are you suggesting that he would become combat ready and "trustworthy" because he counted potatoes? There must be a preexisting system that objectively looks at the behavior then issues appropriate consequences. That body can be a single officer to a full court-martial, military entities throughout the world admire our military NOT JUST because we are a supurb fighting force but also because of how we operate overall including the administration of fairness and justice within. Doyle Smith, E-5, USMC 1966-69

[MC MUSTANG]

There are lots of issues here... Wow. Problem is that there are a couple of competing ideas at work. One is the idea of taking care of thier own... which in a warped way is what they thought they were doing. Two is the idea of keeping things at the lowest level. Three is keeping things within the unit and four is never betraying the unit (falling asleep while on watch - in combat)... all I will say is that I had to deal with this once and I am sure that what I did would be considered hazing - as it was very specifically designed to humiliate the Marine... but he was not physically hurt... WHICH DOES NOT MAKE WHAT I DID BETTER. The reality is that the UCMJ provides for the death penalty in the case of a negligent sentry. However, that is a legal proceeding - not backyard justice. Reality is that I have very mixed feelings about this, but I agree with both Raydog and DaCol in respects. But above all - the leadership in this case (as raydog states) doesn't begin with the Officers in the chain... nor are they excluded from it. I have learned over my short time in the Corps that the times when someone has said to me "you don't want to know" - well, those are the times that it is most important that I do.

[DaCol.]

Are you a Colonel or past Colonel in our Armed Forces? If so, with all due respect, I'm glad I never had to work for you. The unit commander's I've worked for would never allow a Marine to be punished PRIOR to a hearing ("shunning him", assign him to a "punishment job, etc.). BTW, "Artical 15" is spelled "Article 15". "Then, if his unit still doesn't trust him, send him home"......are you suggesting that he would become combat ready and "trustworthy" because he counted potatoes? There must be a preexisting system that objectively looks at the behavior then issues appropriate consequences. That body can be a single officer to a full court-martial, military entities throughout the world admire our military NOT JUST because we are a supurb fighting force but also because of how we operate overall including the administration of fairness and justice within. Doyle Smith, E-5, USMC 1966-69

Interesting assumption, that after a soldier falls to sleep several times on Guard Duty in a Combat and Dangerous situation, endangering the lives of his Command and Fellow Soldiers doing low level disipline is too grave. Shunning him just might show the Distrust and Concern for thier lives that his Unit deserves without any physical harm done. Then if he still persist in falling asleep you need to either assign someone else with him (if you have the man power) or you have to consider the SAFTY of the Unit FIRST. Then you transfer him with cause, as with an Artical 15 to a Non Combat Unit. Doing this NO one is injured and he moves to a Unit where his problem can't cause anyone death or injury. And yes I am a Retired Col. who started as a PFC so I kinda know what enlisted service is and what the Unit should expect out of me. And Sleeping SEVERAL times while on Guard Duty in a Combat Area isn't one of them.

In any case, this is one of those Command Sargent Major problems that Officers allow to be solved by the CSM unless he needs help.