Florida, cutting edge leaders in trampling the constitution.

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Florida Senate Judiciary approves repeal of church state separation - Tampa Bay Humanism & Freethought | Examiner.com

SJR 1218, which was sponsored by Sen. Thad Altman (R-Melbourne) and endorsed by the entire Republican caucus, would delete a constitutional provision that bars Florida from spending public revenues on sectarian religious organizations.

Obviously, Republicans in Florida have decided they know what’s best for religious groups in Florida and they aren’t going to let a little religious opposition to their plans get in the way of their desire to see that their favored religious groups receive state tax payer funding at the expense of everyone’s religious freedom.

Hopefully this isn't allowed to pass.

The separation of church and state has become blurred more and more for quite some time now. It's been, at least loosely, hanging in there.

I fear we may regress back into the dark ages if this keeps up, and it looks like we're headed that way. Actually, with all the hocus pocus fairy tale talk I hear everyday, and holy wars in the news, I often refuse to believe we've left the dark ages.
 
Our Constitution doesn't provide for separation of church and state, which is why the lines may seem blurry. The Constitution prohibits the Government from making laws that establish a religion or prevent the free exercise of religion. The laws that have been passed to separate church and state are in fact violations of the 1st amendment.

I do think what is being reported in the article, if factual, would be a violation of the 1st Amendment since Government spending is passed by law.
 
Yes, IMO we as a people have been abused by our justice system over the past 40 plus years in this area, but I'm not a constitutional scholar either.


I don't think the State should support a religious organization with tax dollars in any form and I certainly don't think as a nation we will ever have a State Church or State sponsored church or religion.
 
It is amazing that Republicans are fighting to stop spending while looking for new way to spend.:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Separation of Church and state is one of the cornerstones of this country.....people today like to argue that the founders of this country did not really mean they wanted religion and gov. separate....but the guys that actually created this country were pretty clear :

"practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States." James Madison, 4th President of the United States.....and the guy that actually wrote the US Contitution.
 
Separation of Church and state is one of the cornerstones of this country.....people today like to argue that the founders of this country did not really mean they wanted religion and gov. separate....but the guys that actually created this country were pretty clear :

"practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States." James Madison, 4th President of the United States.....and the guy that actually wrote the US Contitution.

I have never heard anyone argue that they wanted their government involved in their religion, or that the US Constitution did not protect us from such involvement or the organization of a State Church.
 
Separation of Church and state is one of the cornerstones of this country.....people today like to argue that the founders of this country did not really mean they wanted religion and gov. separate....but the guys that actually created this country were pretty clear :

"practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States." James Madison, 4th President of the United States.....and the guy that actually wrote the US Contitution.

I don't know how someone can confuse this and Afterhours has kindly reiterated this point time and time again. Let me place my emphasis in bold.
 
I don't know how someone can confuse this and Afterhours has kindly reiterated this point time and time again. Let me place my emphasis in bold.

Because this is what was actually written and ratified in our Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Nowhere in the text is the separation of Church and State included. You can quote anyone's person opinions written outside of the Constitution whether it be a founding father or author, it doesn't change what the Continental Congress as the governing body agreed on what the limitations of the Government should be.
 
Because this is what was actually written and ratified in our Constitution:



Nowhere in the text is the separation of Church and State included. You can quote anyone's person opinions written outside of the Constitution whether it be a founding father or author, it doesn't change what the Continental Congress as the governing body agreed on what the limitations of the Government should be.

So basically what you are saying is if you want a statement clarified, you should NOT seek out the source of said statement. In other words, if the constitution doesn't spell something out clear enough, then don't confer with the source of the constitution for its intended meaning. Is this correct?

What is sounds like is word play and loop holes to me.
 
There's something wrong with the OP, i just haven't figured it out yet. I don't think most conservatives want government money spent on ANY religious institution, so this just doesn't make sense. There is more to this post than meets the eye, i just haven't figured it out yet.
 
So basically what you are saying is if you want a statement clarified, you should NOT seek out the source of said statement. In other words, if the constitution doesn't spell something out clear enough, then don't confer with the source of the constitution for its intended meaning. Is this correct?

What is sounds like is word play and loop holes to me.

Not at all. Things weren't that much different back then then they are now. There were members of the Contenental Congress such as Madison, who wanted a strict separation of Church and State. There were other members who wanted the Constitution to mandate that a person needed to be a Christian in order to qualify for an elected office. They debated and found middle ground which both sides could agree. If you are only going to take Madison's personal opinion into consideration because he penned the Constitution, that would imply that Madision wrote the Constitution on his own without anyone else's input, the Congress read it, and signed it without any discussion or disagreement with what Madison wrote.

Interesting that people want the Government to pass laws to prohibit the free excersise of religion using the argument that the interpretation of the Constitution requires separation of Church and State, when passing of the law is clearly a violation of the Constitution as written without having to seek out any outside source for "interpretation".
 
Disclaimer... I am not indicting anyone, any religeon or politician.

Separation of Church and state is something of a play on words against a concept; the idea is simple (at least to me)...
Look at the crusades. Look at the religeous zealots who were directed but the Catholic Church to execute holy war. Now think of a President, who supports a particular religeous organization, which ultimately supports the government viewpoint, which ultimately leads to more support for both based on religeous encouragement...
Can't happen? How many Popes were involved in King making? How many Kings helped to place a Pope?

Just sort of thinking out loud...
 
Not at all. Things weren't that much different back then then they are now. There were members of the Contenental Congress such as Madison, who wanted a strict separation of Church and State. There were other members who wanted the Constitution to mandate that a person needed to be a Christian in order to qualify for an elected office. They debated and found middle ground which both sides could agree. If you are only going to take Madison's personal opinion into consideration because he penned the Constitution, that would imply that Madision wrote the Constitution on his own without anyone else's input, the Congress read it, and signed it without any discussion or disagreement with what Madison wrote.

Interesting that people want the Government to pass laws to prohibit the free excersise of religion using the argument that the interpretation of the Constitution requires separation of Church and State, when passing of the law is clearly a violation of the Constitution as written without having to seek out any outside source for "interpretation".

I agree with your point - Madison is only an example, other famous quotes related to this argument seem to agree with Madison however including, most notably, Thomas Jefferson. If you review most of the founding fathers, not many of them, depending on the sources, seemed to be extremely religious. Most texts seem to give the impression that they were extremely weary of religious oppression so it seems logical that they would actual want a wall between church and state.

On a side note, I have never heard of any non-religious group actually requesting laws to be passed prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Most the religious oppression that I see is actually, ironically enough, from other religious groups. Though I do agree with the discontent that others have when you look at the favorable laws TOWARDS religions (for example, the tax exemptions).

I have on the other hand noticed that the religious folk seem to take offense when the minority groups actually request equality. It seems stressful to those that are religious when the "status quo" is attacked. I see religious adds, commercials, etc. All the time, mostly christian, but boy was there a stink when there were atheist billboards posted. Even the fear on this board about the country becoming Muslim.... :lol:
 
If you review most of the founding fathers, not many of them, depending on the sources, seemed to be extremely religious. Most texts seem to give the impression that they were extremely weary of religious oppression so it seems logical that they would actual want a wall between church and state.

I know there are texts by scholars that promote the lack of religiousness of our founding fathers. However, if you read the founding fathers documents, they speak of their belief in God.

George Washington said:
"The propitious smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained."

Benjamin Franklin said:
God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams said:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Thomas Jefferson said:
...the laws of nature and of nature's God... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions...

Thomas Jefferson said:
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?

Abraham Lincoln said:
...this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom...

I could go on, but I think the point is made. The founding fathers were religious people, which is why they were extremely weary of religious oppression. The intent was to keep the Government out of religion by prohibiting the Government from being able to pass any laws which would interfere with the freedom of the people to freely excercise their religion. It was not the intention to keep religion out of Government.
 
I know there are texts by scholars that promote the lack of religiousness of our founding fathers. However, if you read the founding fathers documents, they speak of their belief in God.

alot of our founding fathers were masons too, you dont have to believe in a religion per say just believe in a higher power. i know this may be splitting hairs to some, but you dont necessarily have to be religious to believe in a higher power.
 
Because this is what was actually written and ratified in our Constitution:



Nowhere in the text is the separation of Church and State included. You can quote anyone's person opinions written outside of the Constitution whether it be a founding father or author, it doesn't change what the Continental Congress as the governing body agreed on what the limitations of the Government should be.

you cannot simply look at the words that were ratified by congress...if we did that some of us would still be 2/3 a human and property.


plain text arguments of the Constitution are lame, because many of the freedoms we enjoy are not written in the constitution, they are taken from court rulings were judges look at things like the intent of the writers of the constitution and how they pertain to modern events.
 
Our Constitution doesn't provide for separation of church and state, which is why the lines may seem blurry. The Constitution prohibits the Government from making laws that establish a religion or prevent the free exercise of religion. The laws that have been passed to separate church and state are in fact violations of the 1st amendment.

That's exactly right! So many people chant the mantra of "Separation of Church and State", when that was never what the framers of the Constitution intended.
The Constitution was meant to prevent Government from stopping people from exercising their freedom of religion.


many of the freedoms we enjoy are not written in the constitution, they are taken from court rulings were judges look at things like the intent of the writers of the constitution and how they pertain to modern events.

That's the problem: too many of those judges/SCOTUS Justices are politically appointed and have an extremely liberal bias. They are the ones who claim, for example, that the Constitution contains the "right" to have on-demand abortion. Activist members of the judiciary are not upholding the Constitution, they are trampling it.
 
alot of our founding fathers were masons too, you dont have to believe in a religion per say just believe in a higher power. i know this may be splitting hairs to some, but you dont necessarily have to be religious to believe in a higher power.
This is a very good point.
 
you cannot simply look at the words that were ratified by congress...if we did that some of us would still be 2/3 a human and property.


plain text arguments of the Constitution are lame, because many of the freedoms we enjoy are not written in the constitution, they are taken from court rulings were judges look at things like the intent of the writers of the constitution and how they pertain to modern events.

That's kind of an interesting point of view that our Forefathers didn't really mean what they wrote. There are times when interpretation is necessary. For example, how do the right to free speach and freedom of the press apply to the Internet. Obviously our Founding Fathers couldn't even imagine the existance of the Internet let alone take it into consideration. Are assault rifles protected under the second amendment? When the Constitution was written, arms consisted of single shot muskets.

However, religion is something that did exist and they were well aware of exactly what they were addressing. In their wisdom, they decided that the government should stay out of religion. That is not the same as separation of Church and State. I seriously doubt that they intended their words to be used to support removal of crosses from monuments, blasting the 10 Commandments off of walls of governemnt buildings, blasting statues of Moses off of goverment buildings, rewriting the National Anthem and Pledge alegence to remove God, and the Sperationalists list goes on and on. Eventually, Separationalists will want the Declaration of Independence, The US Constitution, and all 50 State Constitutions be rewritten to remove all references to God.

Thomas Jefferson only used the words "wall of separation between church and State" in one writing which was a response to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut who was requesting President Jefferson push for Federal laws to protect their religios freedoms because they felt Connecticut wasn't doing enough to ensure their religious freedom. When taken in context, the wall Jefferson spoke of was only referring to Government not making any laws respecting an establishment of religion.

Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court said:
The metaphor of a wall of separation is bad history and worse law. It has made a positive chaos out of court rulings. It should be explicitly abandoned.

Even James Madison, who was probably the most outspoken proponent of Separation of Church and State, was appearently only referring to the Government establishment of religion. When Congress retained a paid Christian chaplain to open sessions with a prayer and provide spritial guidance, Madison objected strongly to tax dollars going to the payment of the chaplains. He did not object to the chaplains if it was done at the personal expense of the Congressmen. That part of the quote is usually left out by the Separationalist.

James Madison said:
The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation?

If it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents should discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expense.

We've let the liberal media tell us the Constitution requires Separation of Church and State so often that it's being believed as fact. We ned to get back what our Founding Fathers intended. If the ideas in the Constitution are deemed incomplete or obsolite, the Congress can amend the Constitution when necessary, such as abolishing slavery so all men are not only Created equal, but accounted for equally in the cencus as well.
 
your information about Madison illustrates exactly his stance.....he was not anti religion, he did not object to the presence of religous representatives. He was opposed to them being paid by the US Gov.

The reason that "religious statues" of all sorts cannot be in federal buildings is simple.

By having the 10 commandments, in a federal building.....the gov. is in fact supporting, sponsoring and promoting one religion over any of the many religions that exhist.

people would be going crazy if we were talking about Muslim religious works or Bubhist idols. People like to be outraged that prayer is not allowed in school, yet if Muslims tried to pray in school they would be crucified.
 
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