EV vehicles

[Oz22]

There are several members in the org that have long and vast experience in different fields. It’s not a good place to spread yourself so thinly, but it’s a great place to learn.

Well I'm basically just posting learned articles on subjects I've been following for years. Don't shoot the messenger, as they say. If you want to refute something, do it logically.

Drivers warned that EV range tests 'completely unrepresentative of real world'​

12 MAR 2024
Motorists are being warned that tests for new electric cars significantly overstate how far they can travel on a single charge with real-world driving. An investigation by What Car? magazine found a shortfall of up to 38% in the range of electric vehicles (EVs) in low temperatures compared with official figures.

Editor Steve Huntingford warned that the testing regime which manufacturers are required to put their vehicles through is "completely unrepresentative of real-world conditions". The magazine stated that official analysis under the Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP) is conducted in laboratories with an ambient temperature of 23C, with each model undergoing an "unrealistically gentle acceleration" to record what distance they can cover before a battery with 100% charge goes flat.

What Car? did its own range tests on 12 electric cars which were taken to a site in Bedfordshire, left in the open overnight in temperatures of between 6C and 10C, and driven in a way that simulated stop-start urban conditions and on motorways. The largest discrepancy was found with the Lexus UX 300e Takumi, which has an official stated range of 273 miles. It was found to only be able to cover 170 miles, a 38% reduction. This was followed by the Lexus RZ 450e Takumi, which is advertised as having a range of 251 miles but was found to be able to cover just 159 miles, some 37% less. Link

 

[Red05]

How's this for real world? Talk to people that own EVs and have for years. Get their input about the limitations and positives. A 3 hour day of travel is not the best; rent or if it's something one does regularly, don't own an EV. There's a guy that works at the office that handles my IRA right down the street. Drives a 2018 Tesla model S. 70 something thousand miles, no trouble at all. Has an hour and 15 minute commute each day and mind you in southwest Missouri we see temps range from below zero F to over 100. Another guy I know from the gym has a Tesla, sells real estate, drives all the time, brags to me about an app on his phone that keeps track of how much money he's saved on gas. A guy I used to work with drives a Chevy Bolt, absolutely loves it. You think these people, if they need to go on a 2 or 3 hundred mile trip mind renting a car when they've saved thousands on gas?
It's my small sample of the world, but it sure doesn't coincide with your findings and readings.
When the range of EVs is expanded, and it will, then you'll see ICE starting to slowly disappear. It'll be just as sad for me as anyone.

 

[Bumblebee]

How's this for real world? Talk to people that own EVs and have for years. Get their input about the limitations and positives. A 3 hour day of travel is not the best; rent or if it's something one does regularly, don't own an EV. There's a guy that works at the office that handles my IRA right down the street. Drives a 2018 Tesla model S. 70 something thousand miles, no trouble at all. Has an hour and 15 minute commute each day and mind you in southwest Missouri we see temps range from below zero F to over 100. Another guy I know from the gym has a Tesla, sells real estate, drives all the time, brags to me about an app on his phone that keeps track of how much money he's saved on gas. A guy I used to work with drives a Chevy Bolt, absolutely loves it. You think these people, if they need to go on a 2 or 3 hundred mile trip mind renting a car when they've saved thousands on gas?
It's my small sample of the world, but it sure doesn't coincide with your findings and readings.
When the range of EVs is expanded, and it will, then you'll see ICE starting to slowly disappear. It'll be just as sad for me as anyone.

In the same way, I know of several people who have had issues with their EVs.....I'm sure there are many who have not....same as ICE vehicles.

The technology is coming but it is not here yet, it's almost like EV was rushed to the masses before being ready.....

We can use the excuse this is new tech (which is isn't) to negate the fact charging stations aren't anywhere near at the number that they need to be and that battery tech isn't at the level it needs to be...

One day it will be I'm sure.

I do find it interesting that a person will spend the premium for an EV only to need to rent an ICE vehicle for trips regardless of the cost savings in fuel they have...

I say wait until the power companies catch up with home EV charging and then watch the rates go to the ceiling......nothing today is inexpensive and nobody gives away anything free......including power for EVs.....

If we look at the cost differences of an EV compared to ICE and the cost to install a power station in a home, it would take a while to balance the cost differential between ICE and EV.

Once there is no fuel tax, greedy politicians will be looking for their cut....where do we think they will turn to?

 

[Red05]

I do find it interesting that a person will spend the premium for an EV only to need to rent an ICE vehicle for trips regardless of the cost savings in fuel they have...

It’s easy math. Savings on gas vs one time rental during that period. Needless to say, the real estate guy could rent a Lambo and still be way ahead. The guy in the office by my house, I mentioned the charging station about 100 yards from his office, he’s never used it. In 6 years. Simply plugs in at home to a regular outlet in his garage. He said his utility bill might be $25 a month higher. He drives 70 miles a day. Figure his gas savings. Again, this is over 6 years. Yes utilities have gone up during that time for everyone, but not because of EVs. How often do you see a gas range or water heater any more? Not in newer homes. This is real world.
Not surprised that people you know have had problems. Another guy at the gym had to wait 6 months to get a recall battery in his Bolt. Was asked to park outside during. If I start telling you about the problems of people I know with ICEs, granted it’s a lot more people, it would be Zerks sized post.
The problems it presents for the oil industry will be anticipated and dealt with.
This is happening, and unlike you, I spent my entire career in the industry of gas powered vehicles. I seriously doubt anybody on this forum will miss it more than I.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Wuzza thinks this topic is getting to be as bad as an oil thread. Wuzza has read all the arguments on both sides…several times.

Wuzza will stop typing in third person. He blames Mr Oz.

 

[Bumblebee]

It’s easy math. Savings on gas vs one time rental during that period. Needless to say, the real estate guy could rent a Lambo and still be way ahead. The guy in the office by my house, I mentioned the charging station about 100 yards from his office, he’s never used it. In 6 years. Simply plugs in at home to a regular outlet in his garage. He said his utility bill might be $25 a month higher. He drives 70 miles a day. Figure his gas savings. Again, this is over 6 years. Yes utilities have gone up during that time for everyone, but not because of EVs. How often do you see a gas range or water heater any more? Not in newer homes. This is real world.
Not surprised that people you know have had problems. Another guy at the gym had to wait 6 months to get a recall battery in his Bolt. Was asked to park outside during. If I start telling you about the problems of people I know with ICEs, granted it’s a lot more people, it would be Zerks sized post.
The problems it presents for the oil industry will be anticipated and dealt with.
This is happening, and unlike you, I spent my entire career in the industry of gas powered vehicles. I seriously doubt anybody on this forum will miss it more than I.

I ask why you are not surprised people I know have had problems?

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You live in a world of dystopia if you think for one minute that the government will give up it's cash cow of personal conveyance....

If they don't get their blood money out of a fuel pump, they will get it out of EV one way or another of that you can be assured.......... Not sure how but they will......some places in .California is a good model to use, power companies can regulate your home electrical power level via metering.....

EV here are around $20K more than their ICER counterparts....$20k sure can buy a lot of fuel...

If one puts a home charging station in their home it can run from $5-10K which is also a lot of fuel....

As for your involvement in gas powered vehicles, this choice of career certainly doesn't negate the fact others won't miss ICE vehicles as much as you would.

I've been using ICE vehicles in some form my entire life as well along with billions of others.......who by the way will still be using ICE vehicles even if some Western countries are forced into EV against our wills.

 

[Bumblebee]

Sadly,

This thread is no longer educational and like was stated, has become a tire, chain, oil thread where opinions are the rule.

I will say that we in the west are brow-beaten into EV submission while the rest of the world continues on the same path. The pollution these countries generate isn't contained within their borders by some invisible shield....it circles the planet to our door step......

What is being done to make these countries bow to embracing EV and stop polluting in general.....I can tell you....not a darned thing.

 

[Red05]

I agree about this thread. Worthless spinning. What’s going to happen will happen despite our spewing.
Wuzza, you make me laugh. It’s the best medicine.

 

[jellyrug]

Simply plugs in at home to a regular outlet in his garage. He said his utility bill might be $25 a month higher. He drives 70 miles a day. Figure his gas savings.

70 miles a day.
Average EV 80kWh battery 280 miles range.
70/280 x 80 = 20kWh per day
20 riding days per month minimum.
20 days x 20kWh = 400kWh EV usage per month.
Average cost in MO for electricity residential = 12.7c per kWh.

400 kWh x 12.7/100 = $50.80

EV efficiency = 72%

Actual minimum cost per month = $50.79/ 0.72 = $70.54 a month EV electrical use minimum.


Minimum, should the car stay parked over week ends and he misses around two work days a month.

My guess is he is spending around $90 - &100 on electricity driving the EV per month if he commutes 70 miles a day.

Just checking your numbers, Chief.

 

[Red05]

As for your involvement in gas powered vehicles, this choice of career certainly doesn't negate the fact others won't miss ICE vehicles as much as you would.

First of all, problems exist in all facets of technology. I’m not surprised that you bring them up as it helps you prove your point, as the experiences I mentioned help prove mine.
As far as spending my entire professional life examine the dynamics of air fuel mixture and how they respond to ignition and valve timing, yes it is on a higher level, all I know. I carefully typed that I doubt that anyone will miss it more than I. You are emotionally invested as am I, but you chose to question me personally on this. This should probably be said by private message but for now I’m fed up.

 

[Red05]

70 miles a day.
Average EV 80kWh battery 280 miles range.
70/280 x 80 = 20kWh per day
20 riding days per month minimum.
20 days x 20kWh = 400kWh EV usage per month.
Average cost in MO for electricity residential = 12.7c per kWh.

400 kWh x 12.7/100 = $50.80

EV efficiency = 72%

Actual minimum cost per month = $50.79/ 0.72 = $70.54 a month EV electrical use minimum.


Minimum, should the car stay parked over week ends and he misses around two work days a month.

My guess is he is spending around $90 - &100 on electricity driving the EV per month if he commutes 70 miles a day.

Just checking your numbers, Chief.

Just relaying what the guy told me. Maybe in his mind he’s justifying what he’s doing and maybe it doesn’t add up. Maybe somehow he’s using less electricity in his home in other ways. Could it be the your estimate is off a tad depending on driving situation and habits?
I am not now or will ever be anybody’s chief, butthole.

 

[–0——0–]

this thread is toast but I will use some sentiments for feature development. Thanks to you all for your input!

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

To clarify regarding this statement,
…”California is a good model to use, power companies can regulate your home electrical power level via metering...”

My electricity is metered and has been since I was born because the power company needs too know how much was used so they can charge me accordingly. I’ve never been restrictively metered in my life and I’ve never heard of such a thing here or anywhere else. What would they do, cut off the heat if I used too much tricity?

 

[jellyrug]

To clarify regarding this statement,
…”California is a good model to use, power companies can regulate your home electrical power level via metering...”

My electricity is metered and has been since I was born because the power company needs too know how much was used so they can charge me accordingly. I’ve never been restrictively metered in my life and I’ve never heard of such a thing here or anywhere else. What would they do, cut off the heat if I used too much tricity?

Lived in CA, Clovis, 6 years. That is exactly what they did, but it is done in such a manner that you will never know. It is referred to as power management, but really all your provider is doing, is managing “Maximum Demand.”

Here in NC, they give you a choice with a small discount as an incentive, should you choose the option.

If you are not a gear head you will never notice or know about it and for most normal people they are not aware of it.

I learnt from Bee that in Canada, they charge different rates for peak hours, where he lives, which is a bit more of a rudimentary way of trying to limit maximum demand.

In most other first world countries outside the US, electricity is charged on usage plus demand. That simply means that should you decide to have every possible electrical device in your home switched on at the same time for one second, your bill for the month will be sky high. Or it means you can save a lot of money by charging your EV at night when you are asleep and most things are switched off.

 

[Bumblebee]

First of all, problems exist in all facets of technology. I’m not surprised that you bring them up as it helps you prove your point, as the experiences I mentioned help prove mine.
As far as spending my entire professional life examine the dynamics of air fuel mixture and how they respond to ignition and valve timing, yes it is on a higher level, all I know. I carefully typed that I doubt that anyone will miss it more than I. You are emotionally invested as am I, but you chose to question me personally on this. This should probably be said by private message but for now I’m fed up.

I don't think any thing I typed is anything that required a PM.......I've seen much (much) worse typed on this forum which was far more personal and pointed towards an individual.

It's obvious this issue has become far too sensitive for further discussion.....

My opinion and the opinions of others have been voiced and in the end mean absolutely nothing.....nobody of influence is reading these posts and adjusting the national stance on EV. This thread is what it is....discussion.......we are on a forum derived from the love of a particular motorcycle and most if not all of us own an ICE motorcycle or several of them.....

The forum would dry up and disappear very quickly if all we discussed was that one particular brand and model of motorcycle even as awesome and cool as it is....

 

[Bumblebee]

Lived in CA, Clovis, 6 years. That is exactly what they did, but it is done in such a manner that you will never know. It is referred to as power management, but really all your provider is doing, is managing “Maximum Demand.”

Here in NC, they give you a choice with a small discount as an incentive, should you choose the option.

If you are not a gear head you will never notice or know about it and for most normal people they are not aware of it.

I learnt from Bee that in Canada, they charge different rates for peak hours, where he lives, which is a bit more of a rudimentary way of trying to limit maximum demand.

In most other first world countries outside the US, electricity is charged on usage plus demand. That simply means that should you decide to have every possible electrical device in your home switched on at the same time for one second, your bill for the month will be sky high. Or it means you can save a lot of money by charging your EV at night when you are asleep and most things are switched off.

.....and if you use a lot of power outside the peak hours, your electricity bill goes through the roof....

What I find ironic is pretty much everyone knows this and runs their dryers (for instance) during off-peak hours (weekends and weekdays after 2000hrs).

I don't know how the EV chargers would affect the electricity rate coming into the home but my friend who has a super charger in his home never charges his EV until off-peak hours....He did say his hydro provider put a different meter on his house when he installed the charger.

 

[TallTom]

.....and if you use a lot of power outside the peak hours, your electricity bill goes through the roof....

What I find ironic is pretty much everyone knows this and runs their dryers (for instance) during off-peak hours (weekends and weekdays after 2000hrs).

I don't know how the EV chargers would affect the electricity rate coming into the home but my friend who has a super charger in his home never charges his EV until off-peak hours....He did say his hydro provider put a different meter on his house when he installed the charger.

When I was considering the Ford EV vans, one of its "management" features was when you plugged it into a home source, think driver taking vehicle home, it had software that not only knew how much energy it used to charge, it kept downloadable data packets. All for the idea of knowing how much to pay the employee for fuel expenses since it's plugged into their home. Sounds pretty neat on the surface. Until I also learn that some states, mine included, collect an EV tax since they aren't collecting it in fuel pump taxes. This would be a perfect way to collect that data.

Suddenly that "savings" in fuel wasn't so much as you thought. And in this case of Ford, they probably knew this was coming, so it wouldn't be a stretch to believe this "data" is probably reported whether you like it or not.

 

[jellyrug]

.....and if you use a lot of power outside the peak hours, your electricity bill goes through the roof....

What I find ironic is pretty much everyone knows this and runs their dryers (for instance) during off-peak hours (weekends and weekdays after 2000hrs).

I don't know how the EV chargers would affect the electricity rate coming into the home but my friend who has a super charger in his home never charges his EV until off-peak hours....He did say his hydro provider put a different meter on his house when he installed the charger.

Think you said your home is heated with oil? That will take a lot of load off the grid in winter.

 

[TallTom]

I don't think any thing I typed is anything that required a PM.......I've seen much (much) worse typed on this forum which was far more personal and pointed towards an individual.

It's obvious this issue has become far too sensitive for further discussion.....

My opinion and the opinions of others have been voiced and in the end mean absolutely nothing.....nobody of influence is reading these posts and adjusting the national stance on EV. This thread is what it is....discussion.......we are on a forum derived from the love of a particular motorcycle and most if not all of us own an ICE motorcycle or several of them.....

The forum would dry up and disappear very quickly if all we discussed was that one particular brand and model of motorcycle even as awesome and cool as it is....

I'm going to disagree with you a bit Bee.

I have found a lot of hypocrisy in this thread. People brow beating those that don't believe in EVs, yet they themselves don't drive EVs. If they are the solution. Go buy an effin EV.

Or berating the data source that a poster links to support a position, because they don't like that it counters their point. They proclaim that a poster to not be educated enough to find the correct data. Or understand the data they post.

Or claiming EVs don't have a fire issue, then post a link that shows that every fire an EV has, has been as a result of the batteries that fuel them. And that link somehow doesn't include one mention of the brand Tesla.

Or stating they are leaving this thread forever, not once but twice, and still haven't.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Lived in CA, Clovis, 6 years. That is exactly what they did, but it is done in such a manner that you will never know. It is referred to as power management, but really all your provider is doing, is managing “Maximum Demand.”

Here in NC, they give you a choice with a small discount as an incentive, should you choose the option.

If you are not a gear head you will never notice or know about it and for most normal people they are not aware of it.

I learnt from Bee that in Canada, they charge different rates for peak hours, where he lives, which is a bit more of a rudimentary way of trying to limit maximum demand.

In most other first world countries outside the US, electricity is charged on usage plus demand. That simply means that should you decide to have every possible electrical device in your home switched on at the same time for one second, your bill for the month will be sky high. Or it means you can save a lot of money by charging your EV at night when you are asleep and most things are switched off.

They’re not regulating the power level, just what they’re charging for it. If I use more than they think a home like mine should use they charge more but they don’t and have never reduced my power level.