IG.
Registered
I only rode at 20 and below a few times, and like I said, for only 15-20 min. It was at times when I hadn't ridden for weeks, and wanted to ride so badly that I used every chance when the roads were safe.
Cold weather presents an opportunity to slide safely
- Thread starter IG.
- Start date
I only rode at 20 and below a few times, and like I said, for only 15-20 min. It was at times when I hadn't ridden for weeks, and wanted to ride so badly that I used every chance when the roads were safe.
IG.
Registered
Tuf, The question was 'besides taking a track school', and you are offering yet another school.
Your advice is impractical for me and for 99% of other riders. I love street riding, and track days, but learning how to slide per your definition is not my objective today. Maybe at some point it will be, but not now.
On the other hand, my suggestion is practical and makes sense for 99% of real people who are out there. Instead of supporting it, and maybe providing a few additional fine points, you are being... less than helpful.
So, I take your reply to mean that an average rider is doomed unless he/she takes some sort of riding school, right?
I think it would be more beneficial if you could apply your experience to more outside-the-box (for you) situations - like street riding, and come up with more practical advise on how to improve incrementally and without taking some sort of school.
So, right back at ya...
Oh, and since you requested a video of me sliding the rear, your request implies that you have a video of yourself sliding the rear 'properly'. Care to share? I'd love to see that. I am only being sarcastic 10%, but really would like to see it for a good reason. Although I watch MotoGP and love those slow motion shots of rear slides, I would never be able to ask a rider specific questions. Obviously, in your case I would be able to do so, and hopefully get answers I could learn from.
Cheers!
Your advice is impractical for me and for 99% of other riders. I love street riding, and track days, but learning how to slide per your definition is not my objective today. Maybe at some point it will be, but not now.
On the other hand, my suggestion is practical and makes sense for 99% of real people who are out there. Instead of supporting it, and maybe providing a few additional fine points, you are being... less than helpful.
So, I take your reply to mean that an average rider is doomed unless he/she takes some sort of riding school, right?
I think it would be more beneficial if you could apply your experience to more outside-the-box (for you) situations - like street riding, and come up with more practical advise on how to improve incrementally and without taking some sort of school.
So, right back at ya...
Oh, and since you requested a video of me sliding the rear, your request implies that you have a video of yourself sliding the rear 'properly'. Care to share? I'd love to see that. I am only being sarcastic 10%, but really would like to see it for a good reason. Although I watch MotoGP and love those slow motion shots of rear slides, I would never be able to ask a rider specific questions. Obviously, in your case I would be able to do so, and hopefully get answers I could learn from.
Cheers!
IG.
Registered
Rode again yesterday at 35 degrees, and although didn't try, it happened again. The tar snake was about 4" wide, and I crossed it at about 20-30 degrees (90 degrees would be across, and zero degrees would be riding on and along the tar snake). There was just one short slide, no wiggle. Lean angle was around 35-40 degrees (zero being vertical). Of course, I was on the gas, slightly accelerating. Speed around 50 mph.
A tar snake is a wiggle not a slide. I do NOT like tar snakes (Tuf knows how much I hate them). While I can see that gaining experience riding thru them might help a rider not panic, I'm not so sure I'd be out practicing in the cold on city streets on a $10K motorcycle...
Being the brains behind the "toe anchor" I'm sure you know the lean angle required to reach one G of lateral force (At which point your toe anchor becomes moot) and how G-force increases exponentially once that lean angle is exceeded. At an OAT of 35 degrees your tires are as hard as rocks and traction is reduced considerably. Lean angle at 40 degrees is knee dragging territory. Now I don't believe you were dragging you knee over tar snakes regardless of temperature as you would be quickly schooled on the difference in a wiggle and a slide and you would probably be posting pictures of broken plastics.
Just so you know, you are far more likely to loose traction on the front than you are on the rear since the rear contact patch is almost twice the size of the front. According to you, loose traction on the front and Game Over! However, you have some sort of magical tar snake touch that keeps your front anchored while the rear "Slides" around. REALLY?
I would hope there is no one here naïve enough to believe fairy tales. But,,,,,, if there happens to be one, "The IG Slide School" is a recipe for increased insurance rates!
IG.
Registered
Ah, and I thought this thread was dying... When you guys set your mind on opposing something no matter the reasoning, your mind comes up with a bunch of irrelevant stuff, and things which simply don't make sense.
skydivr, a general statement. Wiggle is slide-grab-slide-grab-slide-grab. This may happen while riding ALONG the tar snake, and I have experienced that. I clearly indicated this wasn't the case - I crossed the tar snake at an angle. Besides, it's silly to argue with the facts. I was riding, not you guys. It was ONE slide, although a small and quick. But I felt it, and doubting it is plain silly, like I am making stuff up. $10k motorcycles are routinely damaged during track days and in numbers. If you were doing track days, how many crashes did you encounter on average during a track day? During the past number of years, in my experience - 6 crashes a day on average. And oftentimes, those were bikes costing more than $10k. I had a misfortune to lowside about 2 years ago when I lost the front because the rider in front of me forgot to tighten his coolant hose, spilling his coolant right at the turn-in point - nice. The rider behind me went down, too.
Tuf, you start off with complete non-sense. You are obviously referring to foot anchors. We already had this discussion, and I don't want to get too heavy into this, but neither you nor others could come up with any coherent argument of why foot anchors don't work. To me it's interesting to observe in you and others how the knowledge and experience can completely rob a person of logic and common sense. To me, the fact that you bring into this discussion a completely unrelated subject is an indication that you are unable to provide a valid and relevant argument. A few well known... and I mean really well known people in motorcycling/racing industry don't think it's such a bad idea, but unfortunately this is the extent of how much I am allowed to talk about it. Also, hundreds... no, more than a thousand riders around the world like the idea as indicated on Motorcycle Foot Anchors Facebook page. Those are riders from the US, Australia, Canada, Germany, Spain, Finland, France, United Kingdom, Hong Kong, Israel, Italy, Japan, Sweden, and South Africa. Try to guess which three countries and in what order have riders who are most interested in this novel idea. Oh, can you answer a simple questions: what is the primary reason for riders to hang off in turns in the first place?
I am not sure what it has to do with G-forces. You are also wrong that G-forces increase exponentially (hint: trigonometry - those pesky COS, and SIN functions), although they do increase significantly past 45 degrees, but we are not discussing extreme lean angles here - so this is another irrelevant argument. No idea what OAT means. Tires are hard as rock - what a bunch of non-sense! That's at 30 psi cold! 40 degrees lean angle is a knee dragging territory! You gotta be kidding me, because any racer would laugh at that. Yeah, maybe if a really tall guy on a small bike can stick the knee so far out that he can scrape the knee even at 20 degrees of lean angle. And I do ride aggressively on the street especially in warm weather, and I do hang off a lot more easily thanks to foot anchors, and very close to the ground to the extent that my tires are used to the edges.
A complete non-sense about the front more likely losing traction than the rear. Really? All these highsides you like to talk about, was it the lost front or the lost rear which caused it? Man, you devote so much argumentation to simply go against something, yet you cannot provide a single valid argument, and you seem to be incapable of giving any useful suggestion. The front has less STATIC traction than the rear. When the bike is accelerating, oftentimes the rear has less traction. I don't believe you didn't know that, so my only conclusion is that you provide an example which makes no sense simply because... you want to oppose my point of view.
And yes, according to me, if you lose traction on the front while being in turn, the game is OVER! Just don't give me the counter example of the front pushing - this is not the lost front. When someone denies the obvious... not sure what it means, but
BTW, your body position in your avatar is wrong. It is crossed over - your head is atop the tank. I can assure you that if your head was facing the inside mirror, more of your upper body mass would be on the inside, and as a result the lean angle of the bike could be reduced - for the same speed/radius. Or, alternatively, you could go through the same turn - faster, but with the same lean angle of the bike. The question is: why aren't you positioning your head facing the inside mirror?
In conclusion, I'd like to ask you: what advise can YOU give to riders who go out and ride in cold weather, or in the wet? And how would you advise them to handle tar snakes in either case?
I would like to point out that I would NOT advise to purposefully ride over tar snakes in the wet because slides and wiggles are too abrupt for comfort. I purposefully rode over tar snakes in the wet in turns during warm weather, and even at slight lean angles this is quite unsettling experience. I found it useful to know what it feels like, and to condition myself not to be afraid of it. A couple of such rides was enough for me.
Just curious what others think about my initial post?
skydivr, a general statement. Wiggle is slide-grab-slide-grab-slide-grab. This may happen while riding ALONG the tar snake, and I have experienced that. I clearly indicated this wasn't the case - I crossed the tar snake at an angle. Besides, it's silly to argue with the facts. I was riding, not you guys. It was ONE slide, although a small and quick. But I felt it, and doubting it is plain silly, like I am making stuff up. $10k motorcycles are routinely damaged during track days and in numbers. If you were doing track days, how many crashes did you encounter on average during a track day? During the past number of years, in my experience - 6 crashes a day on average. And oftentimes, those were bikes costing more than $10k. I had a misfortune to lowside about 2 years ago when I lost the front because the rider in front of me forgot to tighten his coolant hose, spilling his coolant right at the turn-in point - nice. The rider behind me went down, too.
Tuf, you start off with complete non-sense. You are obviously referring to foot anchors. We already had this discussion, and I don't want to get too heavy into this, but neither you nor others could come up with any coherent argument of why foot anchors don't work. To me it's interesting to observe in you and others how the knowledge and experience can completely rob a person of logic and common sense. To me, the fact that you bring into this discussion a completely unrelated subject is an indication that you are unable to provide a valid and relevant argument. A few well known... and I mean really well known people in motorcycling/racing industry don't think it's such a bad idea, but unfortunately this is the extent of how much I am allowed to talk about it. Also, hundreds... no, more than a thousand riders around the world like the idea as indicated on Motorcycle Foot Anchors Facebook page. Those are riders from the US, Australia, Canada, Germany, Spain, Finland, France, United Kingdom, Hong Kong, Israel, Italy, Japan, Sweden, and South Africa. Try to guess which three countries and in what order have riders who are most interested in this novel idea. Oh, can you answer a simple questions: what is the primary reason for riders to hang off in turns in the first place?
I am not sure what it has to do with G-forces. You are also wrong that G-forces increase exponentially (hint: trigonometry - those pesky COS, and SIN functions), although they do increase significantly past 45 degrees, but we are not discussing extreme lean angles here - so this is another irrelevant argument. No idea what OAT means. Tires are hard as rock - what a bunch of non-sense! That's at 30 psi cold! 40 degrees lean angle is a knee dragging territory! You gotta be kidding me, because any racer would laugh at that. Yeah, maybe if a really tall guy on a small bike can stick the knee so far out that he can scrape the knee even at 20 degrees of lean angle. And I do ride aggressively on the street especially in warm weather, and I do hang off a lot more easily thanks to foot anchors, and very close to the ground to the extent that my tires are used to the edges.
A complete non-sense about the front more likely losing traction than the rear. Really? All these highsides you like to talk about, was it the lost front or the lost rear which caused it? Man, you devote so much argumentation to simply go against something, yet you cannot provide a single valid argument, and you seem to be incapable of giving any useful suggestion. The front has less STATIC traction than the rear. When the bike is accelerating, oftentimes the rear has less traction. I don't believe you didn't know that, so my only conclusion is that you provide an example which makes no sense simply because... you want to oppose my point of view.
And yes, according to me, if you lose traction on the front while being in turn, the game is OVER! Just don't give me the counter example of the front pushing - this is not the lost front. When someone denies the obvious... not sure what it means, but
BTW, your body position in your avatar is wrong. It is crossed over - your head is atop the tank. I can assure you that if your head was facing the inside mirror, more of your upper body mass would be on the inside, and as a result the lean angle of the bike could be reduced - for the same speed/radius. Or, alternatively, you could go through the same turn - faster, but with the same lean angle of the bike. The question is: why aren't you positioning your head facing the inside mirror?
In conclusion, I'd like to ask you: what advise can YOU give to riders who go out and ride in cold weather, or in the wet? And how would you advise them to handle tar snakes in either case?
I would like to point out that I would NOT advise to purposefully ride over tar snakes in the wet because slides and wiggles are too abrupt for comfort. I purposefully rode over tar snakes in the wet in turns during warm weather, and even at slight lean angles this is quite unsettling experience. I found it useful to know what it feels like, and to condition myself not to be afraid of it. A couple of such rides was enough for me.
Just curious what others think about my initial post?
Blrry
Registered
OMG - IG - let it go - you're wrong on several points here, and I don't have a dog in the fight!
First off - he wrote "WRIGGLE" - the R makes a difference in the definition, like cater and crater don't mean the same thing... I know you're ESL, but many of the rest of us know the difference, and a wriggle and a wiggle aren't the same thing - he used the correct word to accurately describe what going over a little tar snake is. It is not a slide. It is not a wiggle.
You're not arguing with facts, you're arguing with testimony. You were there. We weren't. You say 35-40* lean angle - they use that info to discount what you're saying. You say outdoor air temperature of 35 degrees, they use that to describe the expected condition of your tires and further discredit your testimony.
There are none so blind as those who won't see. You've proven this in your foot anchor product posts, in this posts and in several more that I've read from you.
You can tell if someone is about social intercourse, or just about browbeating somebody with their own opinion. Your increase in words-per-post doesn't make you right, you're just engaging in verbal gymnastics and obfuscation - to say nothing of addressing the points at hand. Or perhaps the language escapes you and you're not understanding what someone raised in the language understands. I learned Spanish as an adult, and while most people would think, in hearing me talk, that I am a native speaker, there are many intricacies and nuances that I do not have a firm grasp of and likely never will.
I grew up on dirtbikes, and regularly slide my DR650SE with a 30L safari tank, gear and my 250lb arse through the mountains and trails between Las Vegas and Dead Horse, AK. If you want to practice sliding and be able to transfer that practice to a heavy street bike like the Hayabusa - do it on a heavy as hell dirt bike that you can pick up used for just a couple thousand dollars, ride it to where you want to go (instead of crying about trailering it there) and learn a whole new subset of skills that will serve you on the street.
Sorry, man, I've got the flu, I'm irritable, and your posts irritated me. Ride safe. "Slide" your arse allllllll the way across those 4" wide tar snakes and tell the rest of us (to include regular track racers and instructors) all the insights you've garnered through those 4" of sliding experience on the street. I won't bore you with the tens of thousands of miles off road experience I have, because you don't want to hear about it. This is clearly your thread, and nobody else should disagree.
First off - he wrote "WRIGGLE" - the R makes a difference in the definition, like cater and crater don't mean the same thing... I know you're ESL, but many of the rest of us know the difference, and a wriggle and a wiggle aren't the same thing - he used the correct word to accurately describe what going over a little tar snake is. It is not a slide. It is not a wiggle.
You're not arguing with facts, you're arguing with testimony. You were there. We weren't. You say 35-40* lean angle - they use that info to discount what you're saying. You say outdoor air temperature of 35 degrees, they use that to describe the expected condition of your tires and further discredit your testimony.
There are none so blind as those who won't see. You've proven this in your foot anchor product posts, in this posts and in several more that I've read from you.
You can tell if someone is about social intercourse, or just about browbeating somebody with their own opinion. Your increase in words-per-post doesn't make you right, you're just engaging in verbal gymnastics and obfuscation - to say nothing of addressing the points at hand. Or perhaps the language escapes you and you're not understanding what someone raised in the language understands. I learned Spanish as an adult, and while most people would think, in hearing me talk, that I am a native speaker, there are many intricacies and nuances that I do not have a firm grasp of and likely never will.
I grew up on dirtbikes, and regularly slide my DR650SE with a 30L safari tank, gear and my 250lb arse through the mountains and trails between Las Vegas and Dead Horse, AK. If you want to practice sliding and be able to transfer that practice to a heavy street bike like the Hayabusa - do it on a heavy as hell dirt bike that you can pick up used for just a couple thousand dollars, ride it to where you want to go (instead of crying about trailering it there) and learn a whole new subset of skills that will serve you on the street.
Sorry, man, I've got the flu, I'm irritable, and your posts irritated me. Ride safe. "Slide" your arse allllllll the way across those 4" wide tar snakes and tell the rest of us (to include regular track racers and instructors) all the insights you've garnered through those 4" of sliding experience on the street. I won't bore you with the tens of thousands of miles off road experience I have, because you don't want to hear about it. This is clearly your thread, and nobody else should disagree.
IG.
Registered
OMG - Blrry - you are really irritated! Yet, you went on reading this... Yes, I missed the 'wriggle' thingy - Oh my God, my English is so poor that I missed that little bit of sarcasm, unless it was a typo of course.
You vividly described your great experience, and how proficient you are at Spanish, sliding, etc. However, you seem to be unable to contribute to this thread in a meaningful way. I had a simple suggestions which to me carries a benefit, is practical, and makes perfect sense. Your suggestion is impractical and as laughable. So, I need to get into dirtbikes, and learn to slide like a man, right? Should I move to Alaska, too?
Not sure what I've proven in my foot anchor post, but I answered all questions, and I haven't seen a single valid point against them - just the same old song how I don't know how to ride, etc. Yet, I can't get a straight answer for simple questions like why riders hang off in the first place. Perhaps, you could answer that.. As I pointed out in my prior post, a lot of riders like the idea, and some really well known people don't think it's a bad idea, although there is a lot of skepticism.
Of course, you can disagree, but without a logical and coherent explanation it's just that - a disagreement. You seem to be unable to comprehend my simple exercise. You seem to unable to point out what's wrong with it. Maybe you are confused. I am not saying this little exercise replaces dirtbiking, etc, but it's an easy thing to do for those who don't and never will have dirtbikes.
Time will tell. In any event, get well soon, and perhaps you will see this thread in a different light after the flu is gone.
You vividly described your great experience, and how proficient you are at Spanish, sliding, etc. However, you seem to be unable to contribute to this thread in a meaningful way. I had a simple suggestions which to me carries a benefit, is practical, and makes perfect sense. Your suggestion is impractical and as laughable. So, I need to get into dirtbikes, and learn to slide like a man, right? Should I move to Alaska, too?
Not sure what I've proven in my foot anchor post, but I answered all questions, and I haven't seen a single valid point against them - just the same old song how I don't know how to ride, etc. Yet, I can't get a straight answer for simple questions like why riders hang off in the first place. Perhaps, you could answer that.. As I pointed out in my prior post, a lot of riders like the idea, and some really well known people don't think it's a bad idea, although there is a lot of skepticism.
Of course, you can disagree, but without a logical and coherent explanation it's just that - a disagreement. You seem to be unable to comprehend my simple exercise. You seem to unable to point out what's wrong with it. Maybe you are confused. I am not saying this little exercise replaces dirtbiking, etc, but it's an easy thing to do for those who don't and never will have dirtbikes.
Time will tell. In any event, get well soon, and perhaps you will see this thread in a different light after the flu is gone.
Blrry
Registered
What the hell is the benefit of slipping on a tar snake? It's not a practical "skill", it happens whether you want it or not. Why not write up a long post on how helpful it is going over painted lines when it's wet? It happens, anyone on a bike with said road features is already aware of/experienced in dealing with them. Good lord.
My suggestion of getting a big dirt bike and learning how to ride a new style is neither impractical (you can do it for just a couple thousand dollars), nor laughable, unless you add up all the time you'll spend laughing at how much fun it is. Please don't move to Alaska. If tar snakes scare you, you'll not survive here
However, just like my dirtbike advice - I would recommend it to you (or anyone) for the fun and the adventure of it, not because you'll finally be a man, I'm 100% sure you won't be, but you'll be a manling having fun while you do it.
I'm not commenting on whether or not you know how to ride, you're not dead, you have a Hayabusa, you ride it in New York, that's credentials enough for me. You know how to ride well enough. Re: your question - Riders hang off for various reasons. They think it looks cool, it enables them to corner at higher speeds, combination or perceived combination of both of those. Maybe they just bought pucks 'cause "they look so cool" and they want them scuffed. I don't ride fast enough around corners here to worry about it, and I'm ok with that. Last thing I want to be doing is dragging a knee/elbow and come around a corner into a moose and calf standing in the middle of the lane. They have signs here that tally the hundreds of vehicle/moose strikes that happen each calendar year. Not a pleasant thought when on a motorcycle. I don't want to have a logical and coherent argument with you, I'm tired of seeing you abuse and being abused by others on this ridiculous topic (it's a freaking tar snake! it's like writing about stripes on the road!), and it's not like I get anything out of pointing it out to you, so I'll let you rant on.
You're probably right. Sorry if it was just the body aches, sweats and NyQuil talking. Thanks for the well wishes. I'm just jealous too - I had to put my bike away in October (early October at that!), because of the snow here. Cleared 4" off of my driveway today. **Sigh**
Anyway, man, you're good people, you're passionate, but you seem to have a thorn up your ass whenever anyone disagrees with you on the smallest of point. Don't take my word for it, take the word of everyone who has ever posted in disagreement with you, and look at your replies to them as proof. Cordial or not, you have a helluva problem with any disagreement from the world according to IG. Just IGnore us.
My suggestion of getting a big dirt bike and learning how to ride a new style is neither impractical (you can do it for just a couple thousand dollars), nor laughable, unless you add up all the time you'll spend laughing at how much fun it is. Please don't move to Alaska. If tar snakes scare you, you'll not survive here
However, just like my dirtbike advice - I would recommend it to you (or anyone) for the fun and the adventure of it, not because you'll finally be a man, I'm 100% sure you won't be, but you'll be a manling having fun while you do it. I'm not commenting on whether or not you know how to ride, you're not dead, you have a Hayabusa, you ride it in New York, that's credentials enough for me. You know how to ride well enough. Re: your question - Riders hang off for various reasons. They think it looks cool, it enables them to corner at higher speeds, combination or perceived combination of both of those. Maybe they just bought pucks 'cause "they look so cool" and they want them scuffed. I don't ride fast enough around corners here to worry about it, and I'm ok with that. Last thing I want to be doing is dragging a knee/elbow and come around a corner into a moose and calf standing in the middle of the lane. They have signs here that tally the hundreds of vehicle/moose strikes that happen each calendar year. Not a pleasant thought when on a motorcycle. I don't want to have a logical and coherent argument with you, I'm tired of seeing you abuse and being abused by others on this ridiculous topic (it's a freaking tar snake! it's like writing about stripes on the road!), and it's not like I get anything out of pointing it out to you, so I'll let you rant on.
You're probably right. Sorry if it was just the body aches, sweats and NyQuil talking. Thanks for the well wishes. I'm just jealous too - I had to put my bike away in October (early October at that!), because of the snow here. Cleared 4" off of my driveway today. **Sigh**
Anyway, man, you're good people, you're passionate, but you seem to have a thorn up your ass whenever anyone disagrees with you on the smallest of point. Don't take my word for it, take the word of everyone who has ever posted in disagreement with you, and look at your replies to them as proof. Cordial or not, you have a helluva problem with any disagreement from the world according to IG. Just IGnore us.
IG.
Registered
It's hard to IGnore you, man, but my vision gets Blrry reading your replies.
Obviously, there is no benefit to you personally in what I proposed considering your experience. You are having trouble putting yourself into someone else's shoes - those who never experienced sliding. On the other hand, putting myself into your shoes I understand how you are almost offended by what you read.
It is really easy to disagree with me - you just have to present a reasonable argument. Otherwise, I don't accept it, and that's why things start dragging.
So, you are not a man to ride in the snow. May I suggest you get some old tires, put spikes in them. I am sure that at the least you will be a manling and having fun witih them.
I appreciate it that you correctly answered my question: riders hang off in turns because "it enables them to corner at higher speeds". To expand on your reply, foot anchors allow riders to hang off farther, thus "it enables them to corner at even higher speeds". How complicated could this be, and how hard it is to comprehend it? Apparently, it is.
I hope that my posts are enlightening you, and I am sure you will feel better tomorrow.
Obviously, there is no benefit to you personally in what I proposed considering your experience. You are having trouble putting yourself into someone else's shoes - those who never experienced sliding. On the other hand, putting myself into your shoes I understand how you are almost offended by what you read.
It is really easy to disagree with me - you just have to present a reasonable argument. Otherwise, I don't accept it, and that's why things start dragging.
So, you are not a man to ride in the snow. May I suggest you get some old tires, put spikes in them. I am sure that at the least you will be a manling and having fun witih them.
I appreciate it that you correctly answered my question: riders hang off in turns because "it enables them to corner at higher speeds". To expand on your reply, foot anchors allow riders to hang off farther, thus "it enables them to corner at even higher speeds". How complicated could this be, and how hard it is to comprehend it? Apparently, it is.
I hope that my posts are enlightening you, and I am sure you will feel better tomorrow.
Blrry
Registered
IG... Everyone who has driven on a road with tire snakes has encountered tire snakes and a little squiggle when riding over them in a corner. Probably on their drive home from the dealer/seller. That's what you want to call "sliding" fine. Call it what you will. You're using a fallacy of definition. Almost offended is like almost pregnant. It means "NOT" offended. Fallacy of definition. Don't assume to know what I think or feel by what I have read (unwarranted assumption fallacy).
Disagreeing with you only requires the ability to think rationally. Arguing with you requires more patience than I have, and an utter disregard for what makes a good argument. Again - your word "disagree" and the word you should have used "argue" do not mean the same thing, however, you can abuse them how you wish. Disagreement does not equal argument. Fallacy of definition... again.
I've ridden in the snow plenty, on my dirt bike. I grew up on a very large farm and have ridden since the age of 8 years old year round. Never needed spikes on my tires. Real men never do. Manlings might require them though.
Your foot anchors seem like an interesting cure in search for a disease. To wit - a motoGP rider can lean his bike to about 64 degrees. Interestingly enough, due to the contact patch of the tire, there is more contact at the ground at that angle than when the rider is sitting upright at 0 degrees. They simply don't need to lean more, and actually, due to tire technology, need to be leaning at that angle to get the maximum traction at that speed in that corner. Having a different angle or higher speed would overcome the traction available by the rubber compounds in the tire. You can only take Mu so far. Here's something you might consider regarding your foot anchors - they might work, but you'd have to revolutionize the tire industry (or perhaps chemistry itself) to get the benefit of them if at all. As far as your straw-man fallacy regarding foot anchors, I never said that they wouldn't work (though I have my concerns), I inferred that you wouldn't see others arguments when they presented them to you in the foot anchor posts.
Influenza A can take up to 2 weeks to resolve symptoms. I'm on day 6. I hope I feel better tomorrow too. As for enlightening posts - only from the lumens generated from the white background on my LCD screen, sadly.
Other fallacies noted in our exchange - denying the antecedent, unwarranted assumption, masked man fallacy, confirmation bias - etc etc ad nauseum.
Disagreeing with you only requires the ability to think rationally. Arguing with you requires more patience than I have, and an utter disregard for what makes a good argument. Again - your word "disagree" and the word you should have used "argue" do not mean the same thing, however, you can abuse them how you wish. Disagreement does not equal argument. Fallacy of definition... again.
I've ridden in the snow plenty, on my dirt bike. I grew up on a very large farm and have ridden since the age of 8 years old year round. Never needed spikes on my tires. Real men never do. Manlings might require them though.
Your foot anchors seem like an interesting cure in search for a disease. To wit - a motoGP rider can lean his bike to about 64 degrees. Interestingly enough, due to the contact patch of the tire, there is more contact at the ground at that angle than when the rider is sitting upright at 0 degrees. They simply don't need to lean more, and actually, due to tire technology, need to be leaning at that angle to get the maximum traction at that speed in that corner. Having a different angle or higher speed would overcome the traction available by the rubber compounds in the tire. You can only take Mu so far. Here's something you might consider regarding your foot anchors - they might work, but you'd have to revolutionize the tire industry (or perhaps chemistry itself) to get the benefit of them if at all. As far as your straw-man fallacy regarding foot anchors, I never said that they wouldn't work (though I have my concerns), I inferred that you wouldn't see others arguments when they presented them to you in the foot anchor posts.
Influenza A can take up to 2 weeks to resolve symptoms. I'm on day 6. I hope I feel better tomorrow too. As for enlightening posts - only from the lumens generated from the white background on my LCD screen, sadly.
Other fallacies noted in our exchange - denying the antecedent, unwarranted assumption, masked man fallacy, confirmation bias - etc etc ad nauseum.
Unless you can change the laws of physics your foot anchors are about as worthless as ti-ts on a bore hog. They serve no useful purpose in the real world. Advanced riders use their feet as much or more than they do their hands. Most corners last 2 to 5 seconds and you are at full lean 1 to 2 seconds. I use my feet to help steer the bike. How can I do that if my foot is not on the peg?
I wish you were on the other side of the country so you could attend our 2-fast school. You would learn things that has never crossed your mind. I think you ride better than average and with proper training it wouldn't take long to have you comfortably using all the available lean angle your bike had to offer. You would also learn how to manage both front tire and rear tire slides.
Think about this IG, the upper half of your body is much heavier than the lower half. So which half makes the most difference when hanging off the bike? The upper half of course and what limits the distance of the upper body hang off? Yes, it's your arm length. How is hanging my foot under a peg on the outside of the bike going to improve my body position with one butt cheek off the seat and my outside arm draped over the tank with the elbow slightly bent?
As your cornering skills increase all this stuff will begin to make sense. A skilled riding coach is invaluable when it comes to improving ones skill level.
I wish you were on the other side of the country so you could attend our 2-fast school. You would learn things that has never crossed your mind. I think you ride better than average and with proper training it wouldn't take long to have you comfortably using all the available lean angle your bike had to offer. You would also learn how to manage both front tire and rear tire slides.
Think about this IG, the upper half of your body is much heavier than the lower half. So which half makes the most difference when hanging off the bike? The upper half of course and what limits the distance of the upper body hang off? Yes, it's your arm length. How is hanging my foot under a peg on the outside of the bike going to improve my body position with one butt cheek off the seat and my outside arm draped over the tank with the elbow slightly bent?
As your cornering skills increase all this stuff will begin to make sense. A skilled riding coach is invaluable when it comes to improving ones skill level.
IG.
Registered
Assumptions, my friend. Haven't seen a single post, never mind from many people saying "Ah, I get wiggles on tar snakes all the time". Tar snakes are OK in the dry and warm weather, and we all know to really slow down on them in the wet, and be aware of them when it's very hot as they start to soften. In my experience in interacting with riders I meet in person and with others online, most hate rain, and try to ride in the dry only. I certainly belong to this category.
So, going back to my original post... I am one of the few riders who ride year around as long as there is no ice/snow on the roads. I simply observed something, saw this as an opportunity to have a unique riding experience, and shared with others. As I said earlier, this is not a substitute for riding school - just a way to condition yourself mentally and not be scared when the rear steps out unexpectedly. Not sure how is this bad for so many riders.
A very useful insight about the tires for MotoGP, and I get your point - various compounds, and even asymmetrical compounds, V-shaped profile, carcass design, etc But that's for a handful of top riders. Let me ask you this - would your statement hold true for a street tire like BT016? I would guess not. So, the less the lean angle of the bike, the better.
"Foot anchors - Cure in search for a disease", LOL. I reviewed multiple MotoGP races, particularly for 2011 (cause I had the DVD). There were a number of instances when the rider's outside leg went up in the air - leading to a close call or to a crash. If they utilized foot anchors that would not happen. Here is one recent example from this year of Rossi (MotoGP 2014, round 13, Misano circuit in San Marino, qualifying). Care to comment?
Aside from that, most MotoGP riders try to hang off as much as they can on corner exits. They clearly try to make the bike as straight as possible in order to be able to accelerate at WOT. They try to hang off so far that their outside arm gets almost straight. Don't tell me that hooking their outside foot under a foot anchor wouldn't help them in such circumstances. Not sure if you noticed, but the motto on the website says "Foot Anchors - there when you need'em". No need to use all the time - just when it helps a particular rider in a specific circumstances.
"Here's something you might consider regarding your foot anchors - they might work, but you'd have to revolutionize the tire industry (or perhaps chemistry itself) to get the benefit of them if at all." An interesting suggestion! Thank you. I never thought of that, and might approach tire manufacturers on that. I hope you don't mind, do you? I already approached some racing boot manufacturers as I saw the need to slightly adjust racing boot design in order to fully accommodate foot anchors, and guess what... I'll let you guess on that one.
IG.
Registered
Tuf, this is a really nice post, and mostly to the point. Thank you! (no sarcasm at all)
When you say advanced riders use their feet, you are referring in part to the fact that riders sometimes apply pressure on the outside footpeg to achieve subtle steering inputs. The inside peg is of no interest because the inside foot anchor is never deployed and therefore a rider may apply pressure on the inside peg as before. You are absolutely correct in saying that if the rider's outside foot is hooked under the foot anchor, the rider is not able to apply downward pressure on the footpeg. Honestly, it has been a weak point of foot anchors... until I came to realization that a rider can achieve the same and even better result differently. And that's the area where a rider needs to slightly alter his riding technique.
As we all know, a motorcycle presents a rigid structure. If a motorcycle needs to be slightly rotated around its CG, a downward force can be applied at the outside footpeg - not really an effective point because it's so close to CG (so provides less leverage), but the best under the circumstances. If it was possible for a rider to apply similar turning effort farther from the bike's CG, like pushing on the side of a seat, such input would achieve the same result but even with less effort. Utilizing foot anchors allows to do even better than that: a rider can slightly push the outside handlebar away from him, achieving the same result - easier. Having ridden like that, I can tell you how easy it is to accomplish, how little effort this requires, and what fine level of control this offers. In right hand turns, I often open the palm of my hand - because it no longer holds the handlebar, but rather rests on it. A subtle input is achieved by gently pushing the handlebar AWAY from me.
This particular input on the handlebars shouldn't be confused with steering input which is applied to move the handlebars forward and/or backward. The new subtle input is applied on either handlebar downward only.
Tuf, foot anchors affect only about 20% of riding technique related to body position and anchoring to the bike, and a rider who seriously considers utilizing foot anchors has to accept it and go through the learning curve in this area. However, the rest 80% of riding technique stays the same. I am absolutely with you on that and given the right circumstances would love to attend a riding school in order to elevate my riding level.
Tuf, I absolutely agree that a rider's arm is the limiting factor of how far a rider can lean off the bike (but give me some time and I am sure I can come up with something which removes this limitation, LOL). However, the reality is the most riders are far from reaching this limit, including what I see in your avatar. Even MotoGP riders are not at that point most of the time. The only places I see them reaching this limit are on corner exits when they try to straighten their bikes as much as possible to be able to go WOT, while still hanging off as much as possible. Without foot anchors it was really hard for me to reach this point. I believe many riders have similar challenges. On the other hand, with foot anchors I am at that point almost in every turn without even trying too hard, and as you so eloquently put it "my outside arm draped over the tank with the elbow slightly bent". I hope you don't mind if I use your expression in my Facebook post.
When you say advanced riders use their feet, you are referring in part to the fact that riders sometimes apply pressure on the outside footpeg to achieve subtle steering inputs. The inside peg is of no interest because the inside foot anchor is never deployed and therefore a rider may apply pressure on the inside peg as before. You are absolutely correct in saying that if the rider's outside foot is hooked under the foot anchor, the rider is not able to apply downward pressure on the footpeg. Honestly, it has been a weak point of foot anchors... until I came to realization that a rider can achieve the same and even better result differently. And that's the area where a rider needs to slightly alter his riding technique.
As we all know, a motorcycle presents a rigid structure. If a motorcycle needs to be slightly rotated around its CG, a downward force can be applied at the outside footpeg - not really an effective point because it's so close to CG (so provides less leverage), but the best under the circumstances. If it was possible for a rider to apply similar turning effort farther from the bike's CG, like pushing on the side of a seat, such input would achieve the same result but even with less effort. Utilizing foot anchors allows to do even better than that: a rider can slightly push the outside handlebar away from him, achieving the same result - easier. Having ridden like that, I can tell you how easy it is to accomplish, how little effort this requires, and what fine level of control this offers. In right hand turns, I often open the palm of my hand - because it no longer holds the handlebar, but rather rests on it. A subtle input is achieved by gently pushing the handlebar AWAY from me.
This particular input on the handlebars shouldn't be confused with steering input which is applied to move the handlebars forward and/or backward. The new subtle input is applied on either handlebar downward only.
Tuf, foot anchors affect only about 20% of riding technique related to body position and anchoring to the bike, and a rider who seriously considers utilizing foot anchors has to accept it and go through the learning curve in this area. However, the rest 80% of riding technique stays the same. I am absolutely with you on that and given the right circumstances would love to attend a riding school in order to elevate my riding level.
Tuf, I absolutely agree that a rider's arm is the limiting factor of how far a rider can lean off the bike (but give me some time and I am sure I can come up with something which removes this limitation, LOL). However, the reality is the most riders are far from reaching this limit, including what I see in your avatar. Even MotoGP riders are not at that point most of the time. The only places I see them reaching this limit are on corner exits when they try to straighten their bikes as much as possible to be able to go WOT, while still hanging off as much as possible. Without foot anchors it was really hard for me to reach this point. I believe many riders have similar challenges. On the other hand, with foot anchors I am at that point almost in every turn without even trying too hard, and as you so eloquently put it "my outside arm draped over the tank with the elbow slightly bent". I hope you don't mind if I use your expression in my Facebook post.
I'm not into tar snakes and foot anchors, but provided there are no rubber overheating issues, why do think a larger contact patch gives better traction? Experience, explain exactly how you determine that? Or, physics which do not agree with your notion?
Some things to ponder:
The larger the contact patch on the SAME tire (same inflation pressure) becomes, the better the traction, because we have to increase the force between pavement and rubber to enlarge the patch (rubber deflects), hence better traction.
A smaller contact patch has to work harder than a larger contact patch for the same work conditions, so it a thin tire will heat faster, or overheat faster. But on a normal bike, even on the track this does not really apply to the front wheel.
Here are some grade 9 high-school physics, if you wish to disagree, talk to Isaac Newton.
The force needed to loose traction is equal to the perpendicular derived force between the rubber of the tire and the coefficient of friction between rubber and pavement. The width of the contact patch has no effect whatsoever.
Pressure = Load/area in the USA lbs/inch square
So lets say your front tire (just and example fictitious numbers to show the math ) has a contact patch of 10 inches square and under braking you load the front tire by 1500 lbs
The pressure between rubber and pavement = 1500/(10 x 10) = 15 psi, or 15 pounds per square inch. (About half of the tire is depressed)
The lbs force to brake traction will be 1500 lbs x coefficient of friction lets just assume a fictitious 0.2. So 1500 lbs x 0.2 = 300 lbs force. The width of the tire does not come into play at all.
If we now increase the width of the tire to more than double to get a wide contact patch, then the pressure between rubber and pavement becomes 1500/(20 x 20) = 3.75 psi. (The traction remains the same, although the tire is depressed only slightly and will have to do a lot less work, therefore less heat build-up)
So in short, as the tire gets wider, the pressure between tire and asphalt becomes less and the tire does not work that hard. As the coefficient of friction of rubber is dependent on temperature, it follows that at a certain point the narrow tire will heat up and actually give better traction than a wider tire, but beyond a certain point, the narrow tire will overheat to the extent where it will loose traction.
If you don't believe uncle Isaac, here is a link that will explain that in more detail, but that explains why a bicycle tire won't work where there are lots of horse power and why front tires are not wide, as the back tire does most of the work. Again, from the link you will notice that patch or contact area has no effect.
Friction and Coefficients of Friction
I think we tried discussing this before?
The issue you have with me IG is that you can't blow smoke up my arse and call it a bong!
After reading your post above, it appears to me that you barely understand the basics of motorcycle control. Push left, lean left, go left, push right, lean right, go right seems to be your limit. Understanding the inputs to feed your bike then understanding how the bike responds to those given inputs seems to be a process that has completely evaded you thus far. Cornering is a process, not an event.
The issue is not what you don't know, it's the fact that so much of what you do know is simply not true.
After reading your post above, it appears to me that you barely understand the basics of motorcycle control. Push left, lean left, go left, push right, lean right, go right seems to be your limit. Understanding the inputs to feed your bike then understanding how the bike responds to those given inputs seems to be a process that has completely evaded you thus far. Cornering is a process, not an event.
The issue is not what you don't know, it's the fact that so much of what you do know is simply not true.
Lets keep if civil, but I also have an issue with a "Track Pro" being Tuf, who does not understand traction.
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