ABS Brakes are coming

I friggin HATE ABS, if you know how to drive they are useless. I put my 01 WS6 in a ditch because of them, wasn't doing anything stupid, actually going pretty slow. Almost rear ended a Semi coming down a rather rough road/damn steep hill in my 96 1 ton GMC. I assure you if you put ABS on my motocycle, it'll come off before the reflectors and shovel. I'm sick of all these people trying to "Protect" my ass, whats next? mandating a cage around my bike, and seat belts? maybe training wheels?
 
That is not the intent of ABS...

ABS is only used in emergency braking and rarely used (hopefully).
Kinda like buying insurance, you hope you never have to use it.
ABS is a safety feature not a crutch.
Threshold braking will out stop ABS by a few feet on dry, clean, oil and water free surface. Threshold braking on a less than clean dry surface cannot be achieved.
Remember what keeps a motorcycle upright. The gyroscopic effect
At speed a motorcycle will remain relatively stable as long as both wheels are turning, when one or both are locked even for a short period of time, a huge amount of instability is induced.
A rider cannot release the brakes and re-apply at the standard ABS rate of 6 times a second.
I recently trained on ABS on both dry and wet surfaces.
At 55mph grabbed all the front and rear brake I could, never letting off. It takes several runs at slower speeds to pull the front brake lever as hard as you can. Natural tendency is to release it at the first sign of a lock up.
I would never do it on a NON ABS motorcycle. The result would have been ugly.
Ride an ABS bike equipped motorcycle on several types of surfaces and then decide.
The future is here and ABS will be a standard safety feature on motorcycles.
Just like fuel injection was... many did not want it, now it is generally standard and accepted.

I agree with your point but I feel my point may not have been made clear; folks like you and I consider ABS as a safety device, however, Joe Average Public have been told that all you need to do is stomp on the brakes and ABS will save you. For them, it is a crutch to remove the responsibility of learning safe driving techniques and allow the ABS to assume said responsibility. That is not good IMO and will lead to ever more drivers that do not know how to drive in inclement weather. I've been without ABS for over 40 years and I learned what to do and what not to do without a safety net. But you do make a good point and with that I'll get off my soapbox.
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it is hard for some people to accept that a computer can do things a human cannot do.
 
That is not the intent of ABS...

ABS is only used in emergency braking and rarely used (hopefully).
Kinda like buying insurance, you hope you never have to use it.
ABS is a safety feature not a crutch.
Threshold braking will out stop ABS by a few feet on dry, clean, oil and water free surface. Threshold braking on a less than clean dry surface cannot be achieved.
Remember what keeps a motorcycle upright. The gyroscopic effect
At speed a motorcycle will remain relatively stable as long as both wheels are turning, when one or both are locked even for a short period of time, a huge amount of instability is induced.
A rider cannot release the brakes and re-apply at the standard ABS rate of 6 times a second.
I recently trained on ABS on both dry and wet surfaces.
At 55mph grabbed all the front and rear brake I could, never letting off. It takes several runs at slower speeds to pull the front brake lever as hard as you can. Natural tendency is to release it at the first sign of a lock up.
I would never do it on a NON ABS motorcycle. The result would have been ugly.
Ride an ABS bike equipped motorcycle on several types of surfaces and then decide.
The future is here and ABS will be a standard safety feature on motorcycles.
Just like fuel injection was... many did not want it, now it is generally standard and accepted.

I wish I was as smart as you, I could have never explained that so eloquently:)
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A few sticks to throw on the fire:

1. Pro ABS: Hard breaking while turning (through cones) at a defensive driving school: with ABS, everyone stopped very quickly and in control. Without ABS, everyone crashed through the cones and took much longer to stop.

2. Con: A friend with an ABS BMW pulled off the road onto dirt and tried to stop quickly and almost went over an embankment. W/O ABS at least you can lock the rear wheel and skid to a stop.

3. Pro&con: A few years ago, the same friend could not keep up with me on the Dragon, he on a fairly new BMW twin 'sporty' model and me on an old asthmatic 'zuki Savage single cylinder. Next year he appeared in my mirror more often, me now on a 'busa and he on an even newer BMW 4 cyl. w/ABS. Later, he told me his major change: chasing me wide open and then clamping on the brakes as hard as he could before the corners. I think you can guess why I say pro and con on this one.

I'd like to see a comparison of braking distance on the same bike with ABS connected and disconnected, both with average experienced riders and with pros.
 
A few sticks to throw on the fire:

1. Pro ABS: Hard breaking while turning (through cones) at a defensive driving school: with ABS, everyone stopped very quickly and in control. Without ABS, everyone crashed through the cones and took much longer to stop.

2. Con: A friend with an ABS BMW pulled off the road onto dirt and tried to stop quickly and almost went over an embankment. W/O ABS at least you can lock the rear wheel and skid to a stop.

3. Pro&con: A few years ago, the same friend could not keep up with me on the Dragon, he on a fairly new BMW twin 'sporty' model and me on an old asthmatic 'zuki Savage single cylinder. Next year he appeared in my mirror more often, me now on a 'busa and he on an even newer BMW 4 cyl. w/ABS. Later, he told me his major change: chasing me wide open and then clamping on the brakes as hard as he could before the corners. I think you can guess why I say pro and con on this one.

I'd like to see a comparison of braking distance on the same bike with ABS connected and disconnected, both with average experienced riders and with pros.

ABS does not function in a lean. Current technology does not allow for it. By the time you have lost traction in a lean, the tire will begin to slide towards the outside of the curve. What happens next is very bad if corrective action by the rider is not taken or the limits of the machine and the rider have been pushed past the limit then nothing can stop the inevitable.
ABS should never enter into the equation on the dragon (or any where else) unless you are faced with an impending crash.
Braking so hard that you have past the threshold braking limit, indicates he was driving way too fast.
A motorcycle must be in an upright attitude for ABS to function.
Riding the dragon that hard and in that manner will lead to a disaster.
Don't take this the wrong way.
Smooth is fast......... inducing so much braking introduces too much weight transfer and makes transitioning from one curve to the next very difficult and dangerous. Street riding should be run at 70% or less of your ability and the machines ability.
He may be pushing himself and his MC too hard to keep up with you.
I know it is not availble to the public and it should, but ABS braking classes should be made available to people that purchase ABS equipped motorcycles.
This brings up another problem.
I may have a job waiting for me after retirement.....
wow I just got an idea.............
Offer and ABS braking class to the public as part of our safety program...
Thanks for your discussion. This may be a good idea... what do you think?
 
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quote I'd like to see a comparison of braking distance on the same bike with ABS connected and disconnected, both with average experienced riders and with pros.

Funny you asked..

I just happen to have an ABS test. If I remember correctly there are several riders of different levels of riding experience. The big slap in the reality face is the wet surface braking distances. ABS stops close to the same as dry when compared to non ABS which goes off the scale.

It is very long, takes up 4 pages on my blackberry.
I will post the summary last page, if you like I can post the entire test.
 
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page 4 summery of abs test




With that information in hand, we ran a second non-ABS test but found that
without the ABS safety, net, stopping distances were, on average, only 11
feet shorter than the first set of non-ABS tests. Every tester agreed that
with knowing the ABS was there to catch them, pushing the braking envelope
to the outer edge was not a problem for them.
In A Turn
Unfortunately, anti-lock brakes are not very effective while cornering. Ask
an engineer and he'll get this far-away, glassy look and start talking
about tire slip ratios, lean angles and traction coefficients. Roughly
translated, it means this: The farther you lean over, the less traction is
available for braking (or acceleration). Get on the brakes hard in a
corner and long before either wheel lock, you'll find yourself sliding.
When a tire loses its grip, the slide is toward the outside of the turn.
Getting off the brakes (or the throttle) may not be enough to regain
directional control (the motorcycle is trying to go sideways, not forward,
you'll need to help the process along by steering with the bars. It's a
pretty intense maneuver.
So, if ABS can prevent wheel lock-ups, what's the problem in turns?
Unfortunately, today's generation of ABS, though quite complex, does not
account for lean angles. The same computer logic for straight-line braking
(i.e., calibrated to allow near tire-smoking stops) does not apply when
tilted over. Someday faster computers with more capacity to handle
increasingly complex ABS programs, combined with faster hydraulics with
the ability to regulate (not just modulate) brake line pressures, may be
able to solve the problem.
Still, the ultimate answer, as one source hinted, may be the addition of
lean-angle sensors and computers that completely take over the full-tilt
braking chores. A solution that will take years of R & D to sort through,
and even then will only happen if riders are willing to accept an
increasing level of automation.
ABS Operation Over Other Hazards
Although we tested ABS on a variety of surfaces, braking problems could be
broken down into two basic groups: Limited distance hazards (such as metal
gratings, tar strips, a patch of sand, gravel, or dirt), and long-distance
hazards (wet pavement and dirt roads).
Oil and grease created a unique problem. During one of our tests (run at
30 mph due to the location), while crossing a 13-inch patch of oil mixed
with some grease and dirt, the tires picked up enough gunk to be a problem
as the same spot came around on the next rotation, six feet down the road.
After our Racer nearly lost it on a non-ABS Yamaha, we limited the test to
ABS only. ABS didn't bat an eye at this challenge. It simply went through
the gunk and cycled two to five times until the garbage scrubbed off the
tires.
We also incorporated another test not on our original list. One of our BMW
riders reported missing a stop sign on a rainy night. Not entirely
unusual, except that the road ended (Illinois farm roads tend to end in
T's quite often-a real problem if you're not alert) and he found himself
on a farmer's lawn going 40 to 50 mph. To verify his claim of a "a very
long, but controlled stop," we ran the ABS Yamaha and ABS BMW over a newly
sodded, water-soaked lawn. While a series of passes would have been nice,
no one was willing to let us destroy their lawn. We were limited to three
test passes.
Next to ice, wet grass is about as slippery as it gets. Our reader was
correct. Both the BMW and Yamaha models with ABS came to a nice, controlled
stop in a reasonable distance. And yes, ABS does work on ice, too. Given
that we didn't get our hands on the Yamaha until the end of March and the
Honda until June, a comparison was not possible (besides, no one was
really anxious to try it anyway). However, we did book some winter miles
on a BMW K100LT-ABS. Winter riding also brought out another problem. In
temperatures lower than -5 degrees F, the drag from the wheel bearing
grease and the brake pads rubbing against the discs keeps the wheels from
turning after ABS releases the brakes (on ice). That's not an engineering
problem related to ABS, but rather a cold weather problem you should be
aware of.
On dirt roads, ABS wasn't even flexing its muscles. Like the wet pavement
tests, riders were amazed at how much traction was actually available.
Gravel was the same story. Without the fear of a slide-out, you can
actually feel the tires gripping against the tiny, loose rocks as they
move around under the wheels. Now that is impressive!
In Conclusion
If we are to try to pick a winner of this "contest," based on both the
stopping data and the testers' comments, it would have to be the Yamaha
FJ1200 ABS. Though all the ABS systems worked extremely well, it was
unanimously felt that the Yamaha system worked the smoothest and was the
easiest to handle. The lever and pedal "feedback" were the least harsh and
obtrusive on the FJ, and therefore probably less likely to disturb or
frighten the rider into over-reacting during a high-stress, panic stop
situation.
In the end, everyone could hardly believe just how good ABS really is.
It's certainly not a sales gimmick. This is clearly the biggest advance in
braking safety since the advent of the disc brake.
Our group of testers
had just one complaint: Why is ABS not available on more motorcycles?

At least part of the answer to that question lies in our own resistance to
change and, in particular, to bikers' reluctance to abdicate any amount of
control of their mounts to "technology." We're a fairly independent lot,
and take a certain amount of pride in the fact that we regularly rely on
our own abilities and talents to get ourselves out of trouble.
Still another part of the answer comes with the rather large cost of ABS.
High-tech braking has a price, and it's one that is high enough to make
most of us stop and think twice about purchasing it. BMW's system adds
$1000 and 20 pounds to the equivalent non-ABS models. Honda's system
weighs 11 pounds and raises the ST's price tag by $1900 (though to be
fair, that also includes the Traction Control System, which we will test
in a future issue). The Yamaha is the light-weight king at 9 pounds,
adding $1200 to the FJ's retail price.
I guess in the end the only real question is not whether or not you can
afford ABS, but can you afford to ride without it?

If you would like to see the entire test, let me know.
 
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159 - Thanks for the test summary, great reading. Although I like reading opinions I much prefer test results.

Now I want to try a side-by-side test with my ABS BMW friend if he will. We'll go into the sand or gravel at an equal speed and see whether his ABS stops quicker than me sliding the busa with the rear brake locked.
 
Once again the Safetycrat brown shirts want to get in and regulate our way to safety! I have no doubt that cars today are safer than cars of twenty years ago. But let’s look at an example here.-The almighty Honda Civic. Back when the old CRX was first introduced it could be had with the base four cylinder engine and got around 50mpg! The latest version of the Civic weighs 800lbs more than that car and gets in the mid 30’s. There are tradeoffs to the level of safety cars now enjoy. Has your insurance gotten any cheaper because of this enhanced level of safety? I think not. If you were to apply this same sort of logic to motorcycles we would all be riding 650lb sport bikes with ABS, Traction control, run flat tires and Airbags in the gas tank. All of which are available today!

I personally prefer to make my own decisions when it comes to my safety. But that’s just me.
 
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