Turbo Timing Pull

[hendrixgr]

Hi.
I have a question about timing advance for my bike that i couldn't find a reasonable answer in the internet.
My bike's stock timing (non turbo) from 6500 rpm to top is 32 degrees but in my turbo setup i have set it at 30 degrees just to be safe.
Is this good enough or i need to pull more timing?
My setup is:
MCxpress MC400 turbo, 1:1 fuel regulator, water to air intercooler, plenum water injection, 12 psi max boost, 11.3 AFR, all built up engine, full exhaust.
BTW my bike works very well at 280 hp, i just want to know if there is something to adjust for better performance.
It is my everyday transportation vehicle as i don't own a car so i don't need more power than say max 300 nor the rear tire can push it on our roads.
I also want to say that i am older and experienced enough to understand that i am responsible for whatever happens as a result of bad tuning, i am just asking for opinions from experienced users.
Chris

 

[POWERHOUSE]

I've been running full timing on my Ultra for ten years now at over 20 pounds on pump. Between your timing an afr you are being conservative. If you want better performance with your current setup, go back up to 32 degrees. Your water to air intercooler is helping more than you know - are you saying you have water injection also?

 

[hendrixgr]

I've been running full timing on my Ultra for ten years now at over 20 pounds on pump. Between your timing an afr you are being conservative. If you want better performance with your current setup, go back up to 32 degrees. Your water to air intercooler is helping more than you know - are you saying you have water injection also?

Yes i also have separate distilled water injection after the intecooler and before the throttle bodies....
Chris

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Just to be clear - you have a water to air plenum AND a water injection system on top of that?

 

[hendrixgr]

Just to be clear - you have a water to air plenum AND a water injection system on top of that?

Yes water to air plenum intercooler and the Aem water injection.
Chris

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Wow, Ultra conservative. You could restore timing and push your afr up to 11.8-12.0 without an issue, IMO. That should put you at 300.

 

[hendrixgr]

Wow, Ultra conservative. You could restore timing and push your afr up to 11.8-12.0 without an issue, IMO. That should put you at 300.

That was what i was thinking but basically i only want to restore ignition timing to stock.
Chris

 

[OZBooster]

Take it to a dyno and play with the timing a bit, it will tell you what it wants , i dont think pulling your 2 deg out will have made all that much difference

 

[hendrixgr]

Take it to a dyno and play with the timing a bit, it will tell you what it wants , i dont think pulling your 2 deg out will have made all that much difference

Take it to a dyno and play with the timing a bit, it will tell you what it wants , i dont think pulling your 2 deg out will have made all that much difference

That is what i think also, those 2 degrees were taken out as a precaution but after 2 years of riding
the engine never detonated (except the problem when hitting the limiter) even when using frying pan oil as fuel.
My goal is to revert the ecu back to its stock settings if possible because i believe that Suzuki must have made a lot of testing before deciding to leave the advance at 32 degrees.
Another sign is that the gen2 engines use 34 degrees so i guess 32 were already low.
I also found a very informative page http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php
that proposes to lean the fuel and retard the timing but it does not mention the cooling effect of rich AFR,
well i think i got piston cooling covered with water injection.
I need to read some more....
Chris

 

[hendrixgr]

After some test runs this dawn (very very early in the morning) i decided to go back to 30 degrees from 6500 rpm
to max rpm but leave AFR to 11.8-11.9 because i sensed some roughness in the engine's sound at about 7000 rpm.
I don't know what caused it so i shall get back to "change only one variable at a time" rule.
I think the article i posted might be right and the packed mixture burns much faster so it actually needs to retard timing.
I remember that my tuner told me that he pulled some timing only to make the horsepower delivery curve smoother, not for safety.
Th 25 degrees after 10800 rpm is my idea of reducing power in order not to hit the limiter which is set
at 11400 rpm
Chris

 

[hendrixgr]

Just an update.
It wasn't running rough because of the changes but because of the weather or gasoline.
Today i noticed the same roughness (vibrations) from 2000 rpm so i can't blame the timing advance or the AFR.
Usually some days the engine runs like that and some others smooth like silk, i have also noticed that lower octane fuel burns with less vibrations but it really depends on the weather.
The real problem with road testing is that i usually run out of road so i may imagine things sometimes.
Anyway with the AFR 11.8 - 12.0 (from 11.3 - 11.4) there was noticeable power increase on 6th gear.

 

[vampire]

Hi Chris, intresting, you cool IAT by water/air intercooler and also water inj. when i got it right. What IAT temps were / are you running at max. boost that makes you decide to set it up this way?

 

[OZBooster]

Rough do you have a misfire ? and need new plugs

 

[hendrixgr]

Rough do you have a misfire ? and need new plugs

Hi.
No when i say rough i mean like more vibration down low from 2000 rpm, no misfires.
It feels like it loads up from 2K rpm (or like the rpm are higher than they really are) and it does it only certain days, i am sure it is weather related.
In any case i will change the spark plugs because it is time to change them, they are at least 9000 miles old.
Chris

 

[hendrixgr]

Hi Chris, intresting, you cool IAT by water/air intercooler and also water inj. when i got it right. What IAT temps were / are you running at max. boost that makes you decide to set it up this way?

Hi.
I havent measured IAT but it should be low enough as i never had problems.
The reason i added water injection is to combat fuel contamination due to the economic crisis here and because i have seen fuel pumps and head gasket fly in many turbo cars.
You never know what quality of fuel will end up in the gas tank so adding water injection effectively increases the octane rating.
I may loose some power but i prefer this than blowing up the engine because someone decided to increase his profits by mixing gasoline with napthalene or some other compound.
Chris

 

[hendrixgr]

Final Update
As the time goes by all major tuning problems have been solved and many minor ones are on their way.
The rough engine operation i mentioned in my previous posts has been solved and the problem was
the fuel quantity and quality.
Fuel quality does play some role (about 20% ) in that rough running feel but the major cause was the fuel tank resonation and engine sound filtering which is fuel quantity dependant.
The more fuel in the tank the more smooth feeling i get, when the tank gets almost empty the engine sounds like running rough.
As a result i increased timing advance to 32 degrees a value which is stock for the gen1 and 11.8 AFR.
Power output in 6th is more than noticeable, my bike accelerates like a rocket with a super smooth feel,
it almost feel like electric.
I think i will keep those settings but i need to test some more, it is too easy for the engine when the weather is cold like it is now.
Chris

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Wow, Ultra conservative. You could restore timing and push your afr up to 11.8-12.0 without an issue, IMO. That should put you at 300.

That was what i was thinking but basically i only want to restore ignition timing to stock.
Chris

Final Update
As the time goes by all major tuning problems have been solved . . . i increased timing advance to 32 degrees a value which is stock for the gen1 and 11.8 AFR.
Power output in 6th is more than noticeable, my bike accelerates like a rocket with a super smooth feel,
it almost feel like electric.
Chris

 

[hendrixgr]

This morning i did some more pulls and it looks like those settings work fine and as a bonus i get the feeling that it builds boost at lower rpm.
Surely it accelerates faster so maybe this is the cause.

 

[Fanie]

Hi guys, what is the Octane level on the pump fuel you have there?

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

Welcome to the forum @Fanie. This thread is very old and not a good place to continue the discussion.

Do you have a project going on?

I suggest that you post a new thread in the New Owner's Forum with details on your bike and what you are doing. Some background will be helpful for members to advise you moving forward.