+100.
UPDATE: Busa Bash crash victims...
- Thread starter Over_Easy
- Start date
not sure I know how to take that post....
did you say something to the ride leader (Ozzy) about concerns about specific riders?
trying to understand the post and who would have been informed of your misgivings or doubts about other riders skills or what the issue was...
In a way I do. I think he's saying what many are thinking...we have riders in the ranks who ride beyond their skills in these group rides. I said in an earlier post that we as a group didn't do the best job of adhering to the group ride rules. Ozzy said everything that needed to be said pre-ride but IMO I felt there was a lot of "Yeah, yeah, I hear ya," going on.
Organizational wise it was not starting in three separate skill level groups as originally planned. Yes, some may have said they were advanced when they were really an average rider and maybe a beginner rider would have said they were an average rider. But for the most part riders would have placed themselves in the correct category with the correct ride leader and we wouldn't have to worry about experienced riders having to weave through or blow past slower riders. But I didn't speak up about it when I should have and at that point I should have had the sense, or instincts as GSXTacy put it, to say to Jimmy, "Let's blow this ride off, it's not organized in groups the way I thought it was." This is also why Jimmy and I were in the very front behind Ozzy...I didn't want to worry about us buzzing by slower riders and startling them.
Next day I planned a 400 mile solo ride. There were only a couple riders there I would have trusted in a group ride based on my knowledge of their habits or on a strong personal recommendations. But as we've seen it only takes one to mess everything up.
i was one of the people he talked to and i wasn't going on that ride either even if i had to sit at the Phillip's with Reba and wait for everyone to get back...i took one look at the way the ride was set up and a couple of the people that were going to be in the group and went to Blood Mountain (great ride with a great group of people)...as everyone who has been on group rides with me knows, i tend to run sweep and will only let people behind me that i trust
what most people don't seem to understand is big group rides are the last place you want to work on your riding skills, they are for getting large groups of people from point A to point B along the same route at approximately the same time...they are not a time for impressing everyone with how "fast" you are or how good of a rider you are...instead, i am much more impressed with someone who can actually ride in formation without putting others at risk!!!
there is a time and place for everything and i wouldn't have the slightest misgivings about being in a group with GSXcite, GSXTacy, and omslaw (who i have ridden with multiple times and trust with my life) and letting it all hang out...however, the ride to Hooters was filled with individuals who i did not know and had no idea of their abilities or lack thereof...put my life and well-being at risk in the hands of people i had never ridden with? forget it!!!
Rayabusa0818
Never Forgotten
Colen, I apologize for getting a bit off topic here, but I am happy to hear that you enjoyed the ride to Blood Mountain. Given the intermittant rain, my Chatterbox crapping out, my lack of skills in a round-a-bout, and our destination (Two Wheels Only) being closed, I am really happy to see your comment. I tried to maintain a pace that would be fast enough to be fun, but would not get anyone in over their head. The only time I was passed was on a three-lane road up Blood Mountain by someone that felt more comfortable on a wet road than me. By the end of the day I felt very comfortable leading this pack
well sure am glad everyone kept their opinions to themselves....
I was at the rear of the pack (and it was over 4 miles from the front of the pack) and many were riding much slower than the front.. After I got the "riders down" it took us almost 5 minutes to reach the crash..
Would you have put Robert on the "questionable" list?
Would you expect a bike that had been crashing into a guardrail for at least 200 feet before re-entering the road to be hit by a bike riding in the same group? and at speed (perhaps they were riding too fast or too close as well? I do not know, I was at the tail of the ride)
I do not really think "hindsight" comments like "I knew it was going to happen" fit here... (or if they ever do) perhaps in private conversation? but honestly if I felt strong enough to "stay out of a ride no matter what" I would have spoke with the ride leader (but that is just me)
I was at the rear of the pack (and it was over 4 miles from the front of the pack) and many were riding much slower than the front.. After I got the "riders down" it took us almost 5 minutes to reach the crash..
Would you have put Robert on the "questionable" list?
Would you expect a bike that had been crashing into a guardrail for at least 200 feet before re-entering the road to be hit by a bike riding in the same group? and at speed (perhaps they were riding too fast or too close as well? I do not know, I was at the tail of the ride)
I do not really think "hindsight" comments like "I knew it was going to happen" fit here... (or if they ever do) perhaps in private conversation? but honestly if I felt strong enough to "stay out of a ride no matter what" I would have spoke with the ride leader (but that is just me)
I was going to stay away from responding to this.... Was.
My hope is that this thread will be long forgotten by thte time and of the bashers go down, for any reason.
This talk seems to resurface quickly after one fo the bashers go down. "I had no choice a car pulled out in front of me", soon equates to someone else responding with "If you would have had your head out of @##$$%%^^" you could have seen it and avoided it.
My point here, as stated by others, is everyone has things happen to them. Those involved beat themselves to a pulp reliving the ordeal well beyond that of the rest of us. We learn, we live. No need to throw more crap in their faces, they have more than enough. (I believe they WILL revisit this board again.)
When DO3 starts to ride again, I will be very willing to ride with him anytime. If Jimmy changes his mind and decides to ride again, I will ride with him. Not sure I could say the same for Racer V. I don't want to get blamed for something so he can look like the hero victim type.
Just my thoughts. I have them like everyone else.
My hope is that this thread will be long forgotten by thte time and of the bashers go down, for any reason.
This talk seems to resurface quickly after one fo the bashers go down. "I had no choice a car pulled out in front of me", soon equates to someone else responding with "If you would have had your head out of @##$$%%^^" you could have seen it and avoided it.
My point here, as stated by others, is everyone has things happen to them. Those involved beat themselves to a pulp reliving the ordeal well beyond that of the rest of us. We learn, we live. No need to throw more crap in their faces, they have more than enough. (I believe they WILL revisit this board again.)
When DO3 starts to ride again, I will be very willing to ride with him anytime. If Jimmy changes his mind and decides to ride again, I will ride with him. Not sure I could say the same for Racer V. I don't want to get blamed for something so he can look like the hero victim type.
Just my thoughts. I have them like everyone else.
ktw88q
Registered
I say I love you to my kids and my wife everytime I get on my bike. I do this for a reason anything can happen and it will. We are not here to bash people but to help those down and learn from are mistakes Jimmy and Robert can talk later I hope and help others, I dont know there exact places but rember we are all doing what we love and it is dangerous especialy if you are not riding alone on your own ride, and all of us have made mistakes. I did not see what happened out there but I know Robert did not ride by Jimmy and put a rope on his rim he had an accident and others were involved also his loved ones we need to see the 3 involved try to talk and reach out.
this is what a group ride is about...i have sat by and watched enough people get hurt without saying a thing and i'm not going to do it any more...large "group rides" are just that, a ride to get a group from point A to point B safely...they are to be a time of comaraderie and hanging with your buddies and enjoying the trip to a destination, not a race...if you want to see how fast you can make it from point A to point B, do it on your own or with a small group that you have ridden with before so all of you are comfortable with each other and know each others abilities or lack thereof...doing it in a group of people you have just met and about who you have absolutely no knowledge of their riding skills is, in my opinion, not the brightest thing a person can do...of course this is just my opinion and may not be worth two cents but in all the times i have gone down, i have never been taken out by someone else nor have i ever taken someone else down with me...i'm not saying that accidents don't happen because i have been in plenty of them but i try to make sure i never hurt anyone else...this is not directed toward any one person or group of people, it is just my opinion on large group rides and i hope everyone can take it for just thatColen, I apologize for getting a bit off topic here, but I am happy to hear that you enjoyed the ride to Blood Mountain. Given the intermittant rain, my Chatterbox crapping out, my lack of skills in a round-a-bout, and our destination (Two Wheels Only) being closed, I am really happy to see your comment. I tried to maintain a pace that would be fast enough to be fun, but would not get anyone in over their head. The only time I was passed was on a three-lane road up Blood Mountain by someone that felt more comfortable on a wet road than me. By the end of the day I felt very comfortable leading this pack
when i said i took a look at the way the ride was set up and a couple of the people who were going on the ride and chose to go on another ride that i felt was more to my liking, i was not referring to individual people...i saw a group of people splitting into several "experience" levels for what was supposed to be a group ride...just by knowing human nature, anyone can guess what is going to happen- there are going to be some who, for whatever reason, are going to be in over their heads...i have spent enough time over the years waiting for ambulances and trucks to haul the parts back that i don't feel like doing that any more...therefore, i try to surround myself with people who are ok with being themselves and don't have anything to prove...i don't care what 99% of the people on the face of this earth think about me and would really rather they all underestimate me...that way, i am free to do my own thing with the few people i trust...as far as large "group rides" are concerned, i think i covered that in the previous post
well, as it appears, i didnt do a good enough job leading this ride. however, i did state in the pre rie meeting that my pace was gonna pick up as the ride went along and then established 3 meeting points along the sky way and into tellico for everyone to regroup.
common sense would tell me to ride at the pace i was comfortable with and i would assume that everyone else would use it to. check your ego's at the door before throwin a leg over your scoot!!!!!! generally, riders fall into the "group" pace they are comfortable with while on the ride and there is no need to start the ride in several smaller groups. again, commen sense would generally establish that....
when this happened origianlly, i was the one that felt responsible for the accident happening since i wasnt runnig a slower pace to keep the group contained. however, i did say that if anyone didnt like my pace or wanted to go faster then to do so and we will meet up with them at the designated stopping points. after sitting back and looking at what hapopened, i then realized i wasnt to blame for this as i have no control over what othr riders do. all i can do is set a comfortable speed for everyone and hopefully experience and common sense would prevail and get riders to the destination safely.
after reading several of these posts, it appears that several of you dont think i did a good enough job with this ride. and looking back, i know i could have done better. all i can say in my defense is i did exactly everything that i said i was going to do and pointed out the areas of concern with the ride conditions. after that, i have no control over what the people out of sight behind me are doing until we get to a stopping point to get things settled. im sure that would have been the case, but we never made it to that point.....
im done beating myself up over this and i take this as a lesson learned for myself. hoipefully jimmy is well on his way to recovering and i want to apologize to all involved for not being a better ride leader.
take care!
common sense would tell me to ride at the pace i was comfortable with and i would assume that everyone else would use it to. check your ego's at the door before throwin a leg over your scoot!!!!!! generally, riders fall into the "group" pace they are comfortable with while on the ride and there is no need to start the ride in several smaller groups. again, commen sense would generally establish that....
when this happened origianlly, i was the one that felt responsible for the accident happening since i wasnt runnig a slower pace to keep the group contained. however, i did say that if anyone didnt like my pace or wanted to go faster then to do so and we will meet up with them at the designated stopping points. after sitting back and looking at what hapopened, i then realized i wasnt to blame for this as i have no control over what othr riders do. all i can do is set a comfortable speed for everyone and hopefully experience and common sense would prevail and get riders to the destination safely.
after reading several of these posts, it appears that several of you dont think i did a good enough job with this ride. and looking back, i know i could have done better. all i can say in my defense is i did exactly everything that i said i was going to do and pointed out the areas of concern with the ride conditions. after that, i have no control over what the people out of sight behind me are doing until we get to a stopping point to get things settled. im sure that would have been the case, but we never made it to that point.....
im done beating myself up over this and i take this as a lesson learned for myself. hoipefully jimmy is well on his way to recovering and i want to apologize to all involved for not being a better ride leader.
take care!
brother, i for one do not feel that way toward you at all...i just think some people got in over their heads (i'm not here to point fingers or place blame at anyone)...i just want to see us learn from this so it doesn't happen again...i'm just trying to share some things i've seen and learned over the years, maybe i'm just getting old and tired of rides getting cut short by people messing up themselves and their bikes...i hope no one takes offense to what i have said because i'm not accusing any one person or group and i'm really not just talking about this one ride...i'm drawing experience from literally tens of thousands of miles ridden with groups from those on this board to the outlaw bikers i used to run with...i think you set this ride up just like i've seen dozens of others set up the exact same way...the outcome isn't your fault, like you said, you cannot control the actions of the participants once the ride begins...i'm just hoping we can maybe change a few things on the big rides so we don't end up with similar results again
There are many good points here, and we're not all going to agree.
Ozzy, you are right. You should not be beating yourself up over this. We are all adults and should have the common sense to know what the heck we are doing and to ride responsibly. IMO you made it very clear how the ride was going to go and that the "faster" riders should be at the beginning of the pack. Slower riders at the back.
This was my first group ride in many years (the last one being the Molly Bish ride when Dave had his Warrior). It will not be my last. Dave knows his limits when I'm on the bike and he respects them. He doesn't try to go above them.
I hated what happened, but we can't keep looking back on it saying who is or isn't to blame.
Let's wish them all speedy recoveries and hope that everyone has brought home some lessons learned.
wasn't on the ride and don't know anyone involved.hope they all recover ok.the real victim as I see it is naomi.she had no control over anypart of it.how is she doing.everyone talking about jimmy what about her.these bikes were not meant to be ridden hard with passengers.I think if any changes are made for future rides it should concern two up riding.Personally if my wife were on board I would be at the back of the pack sight seeing with her.when you ride two up there is a lot more at stake and you actions will affect more than yourself.
Rayabusa0818
Never Forgotten
Naomi went home Thursday and is doing well.
I enjoyed that ride too. It was a perfect GROUP rideColen, I apologize for getting a bit off topic here, but I am happy to hear that you enjoyed the ride to Blood Mountain. Given the intermittant rain, my Chatterbox crapping out, my lack of skills in a round-a-bout, and our destination (Two Wheels Only) being closed, I am really happy to see your comment. I tried to maintain a pace that would be fast enough to be fun, but would not get anyone in over their head. The only time I was passed was on a three-lane road up Blood Mountain by someone that felt more comfortable on a wet road than me. By the end of the day I felt very comfortable leading this pack
Ozz, I'm glad your done blaming yourself. I told you that day no matter how slow you go if someone wants to take off they are just gonna go around you. You warned about gravel in some of the turns, you gave the best pre ride you could. You handled the scene very well in my opinion after the crash. You regrouped, gave everyone their options, and continued on for those that chose to. Kudos to you also for keeping the rest of us safe from oncoming traffic also. Head up bro.
Ozzy, you are no way responsible and had no bearing whatsoever on my decision to skip the ride. I have chased you through the dragon and other roads and wouldnt have any problem sharing a lane with you. I think everyone is looking to much into my statement. Semi summed it up pretty well. I was unfamiliar with most of the riders in the group, period. I saw last year how some people pushed the limits (I was passed while braking for one of the tighter turns on the skyway and was pushed almost to the guardrail becaus this particular rider overshot the corner) and I had a talk with that rider at the end. He didnt feel he did anything wrong, I did. So now I choose to be very particular about the types of rides I participate in, either at the bash or at home. Ozzy you put together a great ride, but you cant babysit anyone, dont bust your own chops about it; we definately aint.
Haven't been around much, been taking care of Naomi. Naomi came very close to losing her life in the accident. With the help of the staff at UT Medical Knoxville, and her Father and I riding her relentlessly she had a good recovery and was released after 6 days. She is at home recovering and will be for some time.
I won't go into what happened to me on the ride. I will state that a few posting don't have any facts or at least don't seem to have their facts straight, but that's alright. Also I will state and it is public record that I was charged and given a ticket regarding this accident.
I ask that all of you continue praying for Jimmy and Naomi.
Ozzy you have nothing to feel guilty about. We had a very comfortable ride going, several good riders had even passed you if memory serves me.
I won't go into what happened to me on the ride. I will state that a few posting don't have any facts or at least don't seem to have their facts straight, but that's alright. Also I will state and it is public record that I was charged and given a ticket regarding this accident.
I ask that all of you continue praying for Jimmy and Naomi.
Ozzy you have nothing to feel guilty about. We had a very comfortable ride going, several good riders had even passed you if memory serves me.
hi to everyone, this is Naomi! i appreciate all of the prayers and concern for our well-being. while i don't really understand where anyone outside of the the ones directly involved in the accident have any room to criticize, that is all your opinions. i don't know if Jimmy has any children, but i have a 7 year old daughter that i just thank god i lived to see her grow up. everyone needs to sit back and think of the positive that has come from this. at least we are alive!!!!! i may not be an expert on riding, but we all know that there are risks every time we get on a bike. we just close our eyes and say a little prayer and hope to god we come home. again thanks for the prayers. it has been rough at times especially when you can't do anything for yourself or take care of your own child and you have to rely on others to do so. thanks to Robert and my family i am being well cared for, so think what you want but he is not a bad guy!!!
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