Not good news for the country this morning!

[Mr Brown]

that is entirely wrong....

the USA was not a world power until the 20th century.....well after slavery was outlawed.

And how did it magically appear as a world power? Where did this wealth accrue from? The entire culture was only invented a few hundred years ago. If you can honestly tell me that the economic effects of hundreds of years of slavery are not present even today then there is no point in further discussing this topic with you.

 

[dadofthree]

You'd like to think that, and that's what's really got me ticked at the moment. The latest was that the administration wants to keep the TARP money that has been returned and/or has not been used, and wants to use it for another program WITHOUT going thru another appropriation process. That money should be returned to lower the original borrow, and the administration should have to make another case, with Congressional debate and a reappropriation.

I guess I should't complain, it's stuff like this that will eventually put this administration out of office.

Agreed

 

[jdsbusa]

If you don't believe people had slaves for economic reasons
perhaps you would care to shed some light on why they did? Humanitarian reasons? To relieve the poor africans from their primitive ways and instill culture? Please.
Yes, the US economy was much stronger in the 19th century than a hundred year old country's would have been without free labor. Maybe you should have paid closer attention when your econ professor was talking.
Talking about something that happened years ago is hardly moot if it pertains to the matter at hand, and the effect of slavery on an emerging nation's economy and thus the level of its wealth today, is certainly germane to the conversation.

The fact that slavery still exists in the world is a disgusting tragedy. To bad there is no economic value in our government putting an end to it, or there wouldn't be.

I think our government has more on their plate than they can handle for the next couple generations......maybe some of the other countries not out trying to save half the world can step up to bat??

No one said slavery had nothing to do with economic value...even a 1st grader can understand the value of having work done for you...adults are just as guilty of it (not working) today, too many lazy freeloaders working the system to do as little as possible and receive as much as possible.

You can consider the country only 100 yrs old during the 19th century based on the "official" date of independence, but the fact is Native Americans were here long before us and had a working economy based on the barter/trade system which is to this date still a part of economics....trust me...there was no sleeping during ECO211. Even Columbus who was here in 1492 brought with him the resourceful knowledge gained over a thousand years time from Spain and the rest of Europe.

The point is, the US did not become a huge economic powerhouse until the industrial revolution took hold here. Go back just 50 years ago to China....where were they in the global economy? Give them widespread slave labor 50 years ago, do you think it would have made any difference in their global economic standing? I think not - it's the same industrial revolution we went through over 100 years ago that China is finally experiencing over the past 20 years that's vaulting them to the top in the world market.

 

[dadofthree]

This is from the Tea Party Movement web site and one of their core beliefs:


Free Markets: A free market is the economic consequence of personal liberty. The founders believed that personal and economic freedom were indivisible, (Unless of course you were a slave or a woman) as do we. Our current government's interference distorts the free market and inhibits the pursuit of individual and economic liberty. Therefore, we support a return to the free market principles on which this nation was founded and oppose government intervention into the operations of private business.

It is sort of ironic to me because didn't our founding fathers own slaves and utilize slave labor to become prosperous? That is not meant as a criticism of our founding fathers but as an example of the nearsightedness of the members of the Tea Party Movement.

I don't really know what your point is Steph. Not with the Tea Party, but they're quoting some great men and great ideas. You need to quit taking your notes of attack from the DNC and making ridiculous statements about slavery and womens suffrage. Do you really think that Tea Party or Republican Party members are for slavery and putting women out of the voting booths.

Just so you can get an idea of what really went on, Republicans ended slavery and pushed for civil rights while southern democrats fought against it.

None of that race bating from 300 years ago has anything today with today except Democrats don't have a decent argument so they try the old smoke and mirrors. Anyone that listened in class in high school knows better than this. The Democrats must really think Americans are ignorant to come up with such talking points.

 

[dadofthree]

I'd like to think so, but I'm afraid this time we've borrowed so much that a tax cut and resulting economic activity isn't enough.

Since I'm one of those paying these all taxes now (which makes me a GIVER), I'll tell you what I'd do with a tax cut.

#1: Pay my mortgate off. Strengthens the financial system by removing debt.

#2: Buy my wife a new car since her current one is a 2001 model (pay cash). Stimulate the auto industry and regain lost jobs in that sector.

#3: Invest in my family's business. Create small business jobs and help the local economy.

Note: You don't see invest in stock market (which has turned into a speculation game not based on any reality).

What would someone on the other side of the equation do (TAKER)?

#1: Buy beer and cigarettes. Additonal burden on health care system

#2: Not pay down debt already accumulated.

#3: Buy Lottery tickets hoping to 'hit it big'

Yes, I'm over-simplifiying. A tax cut on those that are reinvesting their gains in America is a good thing. My dad always said, "I'd rather work for a rich man than a poor man"; right now being successful appears to be a stigma, but successful people usually CREATE jobs and wealth for others.

The difference here is clear. Democrats want your hard earned income to hand out to those that vote for them and there by redistributing the wealth. Republicans want you to keep your money and spend it on your family and create jobs.

 

[Mr Brown]

I think our government has more on their plate than they can handle for the next couple generations......maybe some of the other countries not out trying to save half the world can step up to bat??

No one said slavery had nothing to do with economic value...even a 1st grader can understand the value of having work done for you...adults are just as guilty of it (not working) today, too many lazy freeloaders working the system to do as little as possible and receive as much as possible.

You can consider the country only 100 yrs old during the 19th century based on the "official" date of independence, but the fact is Native Americans were here long before us and had a working economy based on the barter/trade system which is to this date still a part of economics....trust me...there was no sleeping during ECO211. Even Columbus who was here in 1492 brought with him the resourceful knowledge gained over a thousand years time from Spain and the rest of Europe.

The point is, the US did not become a huge economic powerhouse until the industrial revolution took hold here. Go back just 50 years ago to China....where were they in the global economy? Give them widespread slave labor 50 years ago, do you think it would have made any difference in their global economic standing? I think not - it's the same industrial revolution we went through over 100 years ago that China is finally experiencing over the past 20 years that's vaulting them to the top in the world market.

Your assertion was, and still is that the industrial revolution made the US an economic powerhouse. Explain why then the US made such a dramatic increase in its place in the world versus other cultures which had been around a substantially longer time and also developed during that time?
Barter and trade is certainly a part of economics, but not the economic system in its entirety as it was then. Of course if you gave China 50 years of slave labor it would make a huge difference in their wealth. Even a 1st grader can understand the value of having work done for you, right?

 

[dadofthree]

I was referring to the talking heads we see on the tube every night complaining about the administration and throwing the word socialist around as if it's the worst form of politics there is....
Difference between bailouts and welfare is that there are a few people who actually need welfare and use it as it was intended...

I agree and I have stated that those that truly have a need should be taken care of. I also from memory and remember I'm old as dirt; families use to take care of this need and take care of their own, and in extreme circumstances the church or charities helped out.

When the depression ended the Great Society should have too. Unfortunately it didn't.

 

[Mr Brown]

Do you really think that Tea Party or Republican Party members are for slavery and putting women out of the voting booths.

If they thought they could get by with it, in a heartbeat. That group is made up overwhelmingly by people who think the country would be better off with women and minorities in their place, and we all know what that is......
Southern democrats that fought against civil rights are the same ones who are now southern republicans. You know, the folks who don't think that one of "those people" should be leading "their" country. The nominal Christian, it's-my-country-give-it-back-to-me, white people are the new minority backwards thinking fools.

 

[dadofthree]

My point is that they reference a Free Market and then envoke it as being what the founding fathers wanted. When in truth the founding father did NOT have a Free market based on personal freedom as the tea party movement would have you believe.

Got to be honest with ya brother, I think you were following the DNC talking points and they failed again.

 

[dmrowe]

One of the reasons the US economy was ever as powerful as it was in the past is slavery. Imagine if you could have someone go to work for you for just one year while you did something else, and they had to give you the paycheck that they recieved. Now multiply that by millions and tell me that slavery had no effect on the economic might of this country.

You know I don't where this thread is going or what the point of all of this is but you need to go back and study your US history. Our dramatic, rapid and unprecidented economic growth began after the civil war. I still don't get the point of bringing slavery into the equation of our current free market or its relationship to the Tea Party and frankly don't care.

 

[Dino]

I'm still confused? Help me out here!

How does slavery fit into the founding fathers desires to have free market?

How can you possibly have a Free Market where: "personal and economic freedom were indivisible" When you have a siginificant portion of the population denied personal liberty and forced into labor? Or another segment was denied the simple right to vote?

 

[Mr Brown]

I agree and I have stated that those that truly have a need should be taken care of. I also from memory and remember I'm old as dirt; families use to take care of this need and take care of their own, and in extreme circumstances the church or charities helped out.

When the depression ended the Great Society should have too. Unfortunately it didn't.

Perhaps not as old as you, but no spring chicken myself. Families did indeed take care of each other, communities did also, and this is where we need to get back to. World would be a better place.....

 

[afterhours]

And how did it magically appear as a world power? Where did this wealth accrue from? The entire culture was only invented a few hundred years ago. If you can honestly tell me that the economic effects of hundreds of years of slavery are not present even today then there is no point in further discussing this topic with you.

if you want to talk about the legacy of slavery....we can.

this country did not magically appear as a world power until the 20th century...

sure slavery was a major factor pre-1850.....but it was the industrial revolution, lack of income tax and eventually world war II that turned this country into a world power.

 

[jdsbusa]

Your assertion was, and still is that the industrial revolution made the US an economic powerhouse.

So according to you we'd be in the same boat if we were still growing crops and cotton as our primary sources of trade commodities?

Explain why then the US made such a dramatic increase in its place in the world versus other cultures which had been around a substantially longer time and also developed during that time?

AH yes....it was slavery that made the dramatic increase....you're SO right!

Barter and trade is certainly a part of economics, but not the economic system in its entirety as it was then. Of course if you gave China 50 years of slave labor it would make a huge difference in their wealth. Even a 1st grader can understand the value of having work done for you, right?

Really.....so you're sticking to your story....China would be what...#3 in GDP given slave labor 50 years ago? I don't know if I should laugh myself or forward your thoughts on to my professor whom I still talk with.....he'd get a laugh out of your material as well.

 

[dadofthree]

Slavery had nothing to dowith the free market? Salvery was all about capitalism. I think OP was pointing out the hypocricy of the movement.

Not a great historian here, but I think the founding fathers used slave labor, some of those individuals were debtors that owed the land owner money. These individuals came from all walks of life.......

Flash forward and you have pure and simple slavery in the south and the north, as the north industrialized the need for slave labor diminished because steam and machines were replacing the slaves. The south was agricultural instead of industrial and needed the slave labor.

Today we have slavery but we don't call it that. It's people that can't live without federal and state handouts...............

 

[dmrowe]

:tiptoe:

 

[Mr Brown]

You know I don't where this thread is going or what the point of all of this is but you need to go back and study your US history. Our dramatic, rapid and unprecidented economic growth began after the civil war. I still don't get the point of bringing slavery into the equation of our current free market or its relationship to the Tea Party and frankly don't care.

Gee, what happened for the years before the civil war? Prior to this dramatic growth you speak of?
My point was that the US economy would not be the power it was without the financial benefit of slavery. I didn't bring it into this topic, but will certainly comment on it once its thrown out there....

 

[dadofthree]

One of the reasons the US economy was ever as powerful as it was in the past is slavery. Imagine if you could have someone go to work for you for just one year while you did something else, and they had to give you the paycheck that they recieved. Now multiply that by millions and tell me that slavery had no effect on the economic might of this country.

It did 150 years ago and has nothing to do with universal healthcare or socialism.

Today we have migrant workers who work under some very poor conditions but obviously feel that it's a better way of life than what they left. Maybe we'll get that worked out someday...........

 

[Mr Brown]

if you want to talk about the legacy of slavery....we can.

Don't need to talk about it. I live it.

 

[dadofthree]

If you don't believe people had slaves for economic reasons
perhaps you would care to shed some light on why they did? Humanitarian reasons? To relieve the poor africans from their primitive ways and instill culture? Please.
Yes, the US economy was much stronger in the 19th century than a hundred year old country's would have been without free labor. Maybe you should have paid closer attention when your econ professor was talking.
Talking about something that happened years ago is hardly moot if it pertains to the matter at hand, and the effect of slavery on an emerging nation's economy and thus the level of its wealth today, is certainly germane to the conversation.

The fact that slavery still exists in the world is a disgusting tragedy. To bad there is no economic value in our government putting an end to it, or there wouldn't be.

Don't forget who was doing the trading and loading across the pond and who still deals in slavery.....