LATIN SECTION

It is against the law to come into the United States illegally.

Any other arguments / debates to the contrary are totally irrelevant and pointless.


Bottom line. It is against the law. period.

So what part of "Illegal" is not understood?
So is speeding, but I'd be willing to bet you've done it more than once......
The only reason things are illegal is because there is a law against it. Anything could become illegal/legal tomorrow. Some people are willing to break the law because it suits them, why should we treat the lawbreakers who haven't gotten caught yet differently because they want to live here? Do you call the cops if you are driving down the Interstate and some busa rider blows by you at 160+? I don't, I'm not a Cop, and they aren't hurting me. Illegal immigrants don't hurt me anymore than the lazy-ass welfare dwellers that were born here, hell the illegals prolly cost me less. If the government wants to start eliminating the people who suck the system dry, they should start with Corporate America, get them to quit lying, breaking laws, and having me, Joe Taxpayer foot the bill,and work down from there.
It's illegal.

And if I am doing 70mph in a 55mph zone and I get pulled over and get a ticket.. guess what.. I deserved it.

And some people do call the police on speeders.

At my base they published the phone number to the back gate security and have encouraged people that if they see any one speeding to call the back gate and have them pulled over..

have I ever done it? no. But if I ever speed I always keep in mind I could be speeding past a police officer or someone else that just doesn’t like bikes and someone could always call the police on me.

Have I ever called the police on an illegal immigrant? No

Have I ever cared enough to join a minuteman group to help patrol the borders? No.

To me honestly, I am not personally affected by it so I have other things in life to worry about that DO personally affect me.

Do I think coming into this country illegally is wrong? Uhh yeah. And it is not just about terrorists. It is about population control for one. We have had border policies in place WAY before we were concerned with terrorists crossing borders.

And yeah, we have some laws I don’t agree with. But they are laws. And there is nothing immoral about wanting to control our borders.

Again, as I stated. It is illegal. Period. Morality has nothing to do with it. Each of us have and make our own definitions of what is moral and what isn’t. That is why we need laws to guide is. Because everyone has their own definition as to what is moral and what isn’t, what is right and what is wrong.

That fricken freak child molester they just caught that killed that boy and had the little girl with him. He had some internet blog somewhere that the police found and he stated he could not longer tell what was right and what as wrong.

So just because someone on this board thinks something is immoral does not make it immoral, and just because someone thinks something IS moral does not make it moral.

But law is law. Period

And this topic is not about traffic laws, or gun laws, it is about immigration laws.
ThrasherFox,
Good points and good illustration. I see your opinion and understand your supporting argument, I even see your philosophy. It is all good...
This thread had no clear direction when I laid it down; it didn't start out with the intention of ruffling feathers. I didn't intend to push buttons. All I wanted to do was to enlighten people on some facts. I was aware of the worst case scenario (being misunderstood repeatedly, accused of bias and grandfathered as illegal myself) and that has since passed a couple of pages back. I knew I was sticking my neck out for the hatchet or noose. I am fully aware of the impact that my "manifesto" could possibly have.
Immigration is illegal for most Mexicans as well as most people around the world, and I have already given my THEORY as to why it is illegal.
In regards to legality, there is no misunderstanding or denial on my or any other contributor's part.
The questions have been raised about the reasons or morality of the illegality of immigration, declared during the highest concentration of Mexican immigration.
1. What does that say to you?
2. Why didn't the Irish, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Russian or Scandinavians get told to stop and turn around?
3. Why is it that a very easily identifiable immigrant group was made the sacrificial lamb?
4. Why did the Mexicans (those brown, medium skinned and anglo ones included) get the sh!t end of it?
5. Why does everyone keep saying there is no more room here for them?
6. Why isn't the real reason so blatantly obvious to everyone else?
Lets be reasonable about the issue and really look at what it says about America's social nuances and defects.
What do you say?
I separate as SSgt Castaneda 2E271, USAF in August 2002, and served 8 years, Kelly AFB (Security Hill Cryptologic Support Center) 94-97, RAF Croughton, UK (AutoDIN) 97-00, Pentagon (Joint Staff, National Military Command Center, Red Switch) 00-02.
Do you know me? I might know who you are. You know how small the Military world is...
Actually I am not a 100% and I honestly am guessing at this.

But I think waaaay in the past immigration was a natural thing and did not seem to cause any problems at that time.

But I think in current day it is not just Mexican's from Mexico that are having a difficult time getting into this country, I think everyone from everywhere is.

I think the Mexcian issue is just brought to light more because there are more people in the United States bring it up as an issue and shining the spot light on the Mexican migration issue and plight for a better life.

And I don't know why you keep bringing yourself into the situation.

You said you were born here right? the laws state if you were born in the United States, regardless of your parents status, you are a US citizen.

So you are a US citizen, period. Your parents status has no bearing on who you are in relation to citizenship.

And if you served in the US military, then that gives you even more brownie points
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Actually I am not a 100% and I honestly am guessing at this.

But I think waaaay in the past immigration was a natural thing and did not seem to cause any problems at that time.

But I think in current day it is not just Mexican's from Mexico that are having a difficult time getting into this country, I think everyone from everywhere is.

I think the Mexcian issue is just brought to light more because there are more people in the United States bring it up as an issue and shining the spot light on the Mexican migration issue and plight for a better life.

And I don't know why you keep bringing yourself into the situation.

You said you were born here right? the laws state if you were born in the United States, regardless of your parents status, you are a US citizen.

So you are a US citizen, period. Your parents status has no bearing on who you are in relation to citizenship.

And if you served in the US military, then that gives you even more brownie points
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So tell me something I don't know....  
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Actually I am not a 100% and I honestly am guessing at this.

But I think waaaay in the past immigration was a natural thing and did not seem to cause any problems at that time.

But I think in current day it is not just Mexican's from Mexico that are having a difficult time getting into this country, I think everyone from everywhere is.

I think the Mexcian issue is just brought to light more because there are more people in the United States bring it up as an issue and shining the spot light on the Mexican migration issue and plight for a better life.

And I don't know why you keep bringing yourself into the situation.

You said you were born here right? the laws state if you were born in the United States, regardless of your parents status, you are a US citizen.

So you are a US citizen, period. Your parents status has no bearing on who you are in relation to citizenship.

And if you served in the US military, then that gives you even more brownie points
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So tell me something I don't know....
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So who is drinking with me in August. Sometime after the 15th is when I will be there. Not sure where first because I have a few eBay bike purchases to complete. I might get a 1999 Victory V92C(?) out of Michigan and a 1999 Valkyrie out of Vegas. We'll see how that goes.
 
However, the study was based entirely on U.S. Census bureau data.

The Census Bureau is a governemental agency, isn't it? Oh dear.

Also it should be noted that the CIS report was only for costs at the federal level. Statewide costs could also be significant, however those would vary state to state based on such factors as the amount of illegal immigration, and the states capacity for handling such cost overruns through its own funding (states such as Texas, for instance, are more likely to incur even greater costs, as it has a high concentration of illegal immigrants, bothe from Mexico and elsewhere in the world, but also because of its lack of a state sales tax).

I won't even go into how Illegal Immigration pipelines have been known to facilitate the importation of terroristic and terrorist sympathetic people into the nation.

And please, before you start screaming bias or whatever, please, dont even try that ploy. I've specifically looked for factual and news information, and weeded out opinion, rhetoric, and politically biased pieces (and there's a lot out there for both sides).

(And you REALLY don't want me bringing up the National Research Council's Study. For one thing, it's really dry reading, and two... let's just say it doesn't paint a pretty picture for your point of view.)

Unfortunately, all you've supplied is conjecture and opinion, as well as a fairly obvious bias. And has been pointed out, it's becoming tiresome.

also, I have to back up to this:

Mexiguy acquires a social security number (BINGO) that used to belong to someone recently passed away, or someone still living that might have a Latin name. Next he travels to re-unite with his family.
Practically starved and in need of rest he arrives at this initial destination, which is family, friends or people that have helped others. These people help Mexiguy find a job using the Social Security Number that he acquired. He goes to work washing dishes until he graduates to cook then waiter because by then he speaks enough English. Taxes are withheld the entire time but he doesn't file for them because he is afraid of raising eyebrows and linking his address with the false SSN he is using. He just counts his blessings and gives thanks because it is a small price to pay for a stepping stone toward citizenship.

So basically you're not only condoning but championing the idea of identity theft and fraud simply so someone can come into this country and take away not only the opportunities that someone who has a legal right to live and work here might have, but also the good name (and whatever bonus goes with it) of the person whose identity has been lifted? Are you ACTUALLY serious?
Nah, wrong again,
I am just providing a factual illustration of the type of process that supports illegal immigrants on their way into the US labor force.
Once again another faulty conclusion on your part.
So throw some more text at me. I can read it and will give you an honest UNBIASED analysis... Believe it or not.
Sincerely,
Justan Athur Brownman[/QUOTE]
Beautiful job.

You've managed to ignore two perfectly good studies, based on fact and data provided by certified and perfectly acceptable groups, both of which do more to bury your position as far as not being a burden on the economy, simply because they don't jiobe with your slanted world view. You continue to ignore irrefutable factual information presented to you here, because you have such a hard-on to justify a position that is unjustifiable.

Here's the thing, you're putting your head in the sand when provided with facts in the form of scientific, reproducable studies (the second one of which even gives the formulae and all information on how to re-create their findngs), and STILL can't provide anything that actually disproves them.

(And just to clear up: anecdotes are not factual situations, nor information. They're simply a good story to tell the grandkids, and a great way to try and obscure the matter being debated, without actually providing any real information of your own... they are, however a great way to try and justify illegal actions that are a detriment to the vast majority)
 
I agree that having our borders secure during a time of war is very important. The problem that I have is that they never have been secure, are not currently, and barring a major change in our lifestyle, never will be. [/QUOTE]

So... that's the way it's always been, and so, even though we're now in more danger from outside forces infiltrating and damaging us on our own soil than we ever have in the past, that's the way it always should be?

I agree that there is a major change needed to make it work, but I can't by the idea that we shouldn;t try and make the change to keep ourselves safer.

If the Government was really interested in closing our borders for our safety, surely they would have installed military garrisons all along BOTH borders. The reality is that our border with Canada is free for the walking across.[/QUOTE]

Not so much, not from judging the last couple of times I went up to Vancouver. The backups are enormous because of all the checking that is being done, and loopholes are being tightened all the time. Not to mention the increased nabbing of illegals-trafficking (usually asian) and drug-trafficking busts in the past couple of years. The Canadian border is porous, but it certainly isn't treated with any less vigilance than the Mexican border is (and I can say this with some authority... I've lived near both borders, both here and in Texas).

If you had means, where would you rather enter the country?[/QUOTE]

Honestly? If I had the means to do so and wanted to do it undetected as possible, I'd want to do it pseudo-legally, and through the front door, exactly how the 9/11 hijackers did it, with visas and false histories. Strategically, especially considering the holes in our Intelligence that have been made painfully clear, it's the easiest point of entry. But that's just me.

If I was looking at sneaking across either border, I'd choose the Mexican border for one very specific reason... as a middle-easterner, with skin tones and complexion and such, I would blend into the crowd far easier, and into the indigneous population of the U.S. once across the border, what with the higher concentration of Latino/Mexican-Americans (and Mexican/South American nationals) in the southwest.

The terrorists that we are dealing with are not poor, they are not gonna come walking across the Rio Grande and take their chances with the Border Patrol[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ.

From this news stoy, Pipelines Send Illegal Immigrants to U.S.:

"TIJUANA, Mexico - The men flocked to the cafe under the sign with the cedar tree, symbol of their Mideast home. Here, in this alien border land, it was the beacon that led to an Arab "brother" who would help them complete their journey from Lebanon into America.

They would come, sometimes dozens a month over a three-year period, to find Salim Boughader Mucharrafille — the cafe owner who drove a Mercedes and catered to some of Tijuana's more affluent denizens, including workers at the U.S. consulate only a short stroll away. His American customers were unaware that the savvy boss of La Libanesa cafe ran a less reputable business on the side.

Until his arrest in December 2002, Boughader smuggled about 200 Lebanese compatriots into the United States, including sympathizers of Hezbollah, designated a terrorist organization by U.S. authorities. One client, Boughader said, worked for a Hezbollah-owned television network, which glorifies suicide bombers and is itself on an American terror watch list.

...

But he is not unique.

After Boughader was locked up, other smugglers operating in Lebanon, Mexico and the United States continued to help Hezbollah-affiliated migrants in their effort to illicitly enter from Tijuana, a U.S. immigration investigator said in Mexican court documents obtained by the AP.

Another smuggling network that is controlled by Sri Lanka's Tamil Tiger rebel group — a U.S.-designated terror organization — tried sneaking four Tigers over the California-Mexico border en route to Canada not long after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigator Steven Schultz said. The four were caught along with 17 other Sri Lankans, all posing as Mexicans, attempting to enter ports at San Ysidro and Otay Mesa.

...

At least one al-Qaida-linked man smuggled himself over the border. Nabil al-Marabh, a now-deported Syrian citizen once No. 27 on the FBI's list of terror suspects and accused by Canadian authorities of having connections to Osama bin Laden's network, was caught sneaking from Canada into New York in the back of a tractor-trailer in June 2001 with a fake Canadian passport.

"Several al-Qaida leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry," Jim Loy, deputy secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, told a congressional committee in February. Further, he said, "entrenched human smuggling networks and corruption in areas beyond our borders can be exploited by terrorist organizations."

The Boughader case and others show just how easy it would be — even now, nearly four years after Sept. 11.
..."


It goes on, a fairly long article.

There are plenty of ways for a determined enemy to get into this country, always will be. [/QUOTE]

Oh, very much agreed.

The problem I have is that the government is once agin using the threat of terrorism to scare people into swallowing a different agenda.[/QUOTE]

I agree the government does this as well, but I have a hard time believing that there is a specific anti-Mexican agenda that is uber alles... if there were, a wall would be going up, protesters-be-damned (this administration has shown its unique disdain for the voice of the public on occasion) and there would be a pronounced rounding up of people of Mexican descent, similar to that of the Japanese to internment camps during WWII.



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Beautiful job.

You've managed to ignore two perfectly good studies, based on fact and data provided by certified and perfectly acceptable groups, both of which do more to bury your position as far as not being a burden on the economy, simply because they don't jiobe with your slanted world view.  You continue to ignore irrefutable factual information presented to you here, because you have such a hard-on to justify a position that is unjustifiable.

Here's the thing, you're putting your head in the sand when provided with facts in the form of scientific, reproducable studies (the second one of which even gives the formulae and all information on how to re-create their findngs), and STILL can't provide anything that actually disproves them.

(And just to clear up: anecdotes are not factual situations, nor information.  They're simply a good story to tell the grandkids, and a great way to try and obscure the matter being debated, without actually providing any real information of your own... they are, however a great way to try and justify illegal actions that are a detriment to the vast majority)
You still around?
Really, well then welcome back. Man, seriously, the beer is cold and it's time to just chill and watch the girls walk by here in Sarajevo.

Sand?
No, our beaches here on the Croatian coast have mostly pebbles. It is rough on your feet but much cleaner when shaking off you towel. It makes the water crystal clear too.

Slanted view?
Only when I am laying down tanning and see a great rear end on a fine young female walking by.

Hard-on?
Not for politics. Just the natural female form. Man it sure is great to live where I live. My young 19 year old girlfriend uses mine regularly.

Studies?
Okay, if you insist. But only after intermission, I am watching everybody enjoy themselves on this warm summer evening.

Maybe you should come visit me here and see what life is all about.
One more thing.

Why are you so angry?

Did some Illegal Messican take your good job picking tomatos or cooking at Pancho's? Did all those Mexico funneled terrorists blow up your house? Or was it all that money you spent trying to isolate yourself from Illegals only to realize that your nanny growing up was illegal too, or cleaning lady, gardener, mechanic, or maybe even the girl you paid on the street last night for sex because you are too tightly wound to relax around women without just losing your load before asking what their sign is?
Nevermind it'll make little difference to you. You can just be happy that in your mind you are right and I am just a biased brown simpleton that happens to ride a Hayabusa and has an opinion about things other than bikes, speeding tickets, and when the next busa bash is.

When, I finish having a good time here I will be sure to jump through hoops for you as you have obviously jumped through them for me.
That is the funny thing about it all.
While you are waiting for my groundbreaking research go ahead and hold your breath and when you come to just hold your breath again and again. Do it over and over and over and over and over and over. Keep going until I tell you to stop.
I'll be here for a while drinking Imported Mexican bottled piss.
 
Why are you so angry? [/QUOTE]

Excellent, you turn my sharing of information and data into a personal issue. I knew it was right around the corner, and right on schedule too. You have a bright future as a no-substance political puindit ahead of you.

Anyways...

I'm not angry. I just have a hard time taking the arguments of someone who can;t be bothered to back up his own claims too seriously. You sit there and tell me thatthe research I've found is biased bullsh1t, and yet you haven't managed to find anything to refute, and even tell me to do it for you. Not going to do it.

How my reiterating that I'm finding information that directly refutes your stand on an issue translates into being angry, I have no idea.

Besides, statements like

Did some Illegal Messican take your good job picking tomatos or cooking at Pancho's? Did all those Mexico funneled terrorists blow up your house? Or was it all that money you spent trying to isolate yourself from Illegals only to realize that your nanny growing up was illegal too, or cleaning lady, gardener, mechanic, or maybe even the girl you paid on the street last night for sex because you are too tightly wound to relax around women without just losing your load before asking what their sign is?[/QUOTE]

strike me more as you being the angry and irrational one. But hey, to each their own.

Also, regarding this little nugget of joy:

You can just be happy that in your mind you are right and I am just a biased brown simpleton that happens to ride a Hayabusa and has an opinion about things other than bikes, speeding tickets, and when the next busa bash is. [/QUOTE]

Go through my quotes... I don't think I've ever expressed any worry about any of those things, well except the new BMW, maybe.

Also, congratulations on allowing your sarcastic beligerence insult a good chunk of the poeple on this board. Way to be.

Trust me, I'm not holding my breath waiting for you to respond -- you've more than proven your complete lack of, or unwillingness to produce, actual information, much less anything interesting. I simply am one of those poor bastards who likes having correct information out there, silly as that may sound to you.



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I don't think we're in MORE danger now, if anything the aura of invicibility that had been built up is gone, and people now KNOW that it can, and prolly will happen to them.
Of course the patrolled crossings on both borders are busy, I was talking about the miles of territory that is patrolled infrequently, due to lack of manpower.
I still hold that the terrorist organizations with which we are dealing are well financed, thanks mainly to our dependence on oil. The average Saudi citizen has more money than God, imagine what kind of financial clout religious leaders there have at their disposal......
I don't think that the government has an anti-Mexican agenda, more an anti-immigrant of color de facto policy. It just happens that many poor people of color attempt to enter the country illegally via Mexico, as you point out they blend in better.
If the Bush administration were not afraid of the growing spectre of Latino political influence, there is not a doubt in my mind that they would put up a wall to keep all the illegals out.
 
Random-
I don't think we're in MORE danger now, if anything the aura of invicibility that had been built up is gone, and people now KNOW that it can, and prolly will happen to them.
Of course the patrolled crossings on both borders are busy, I was talking about the miles of territory that is patrolled infrequently, due to lack of manpower.
I still hold that the terrorist organizations with which we are dealing are well financed, thanks mainly to our dependence on oil. The average Saudi citizen has more money than God, imagine what kind of financial clout religious leaders there have at their disposal......
I don't think that the government has an anti-Mexican agenda, more an anti-immigrant of color de facto policy. It just happens that many poor people of color attempt to enter the country illegally via Mexico, as you point out they blend in better.
If the Bush administration were not afraid of the growing spectre of Latino political influence, there is not a doubt in my mind that they would put up a wall to keep all the illegals out.
Hmmm... Okay, I see your point, and I can tell you I think there is definitely merit to it, although Bush did manage to do a lot of courting of the Latino populace in his campaigns, and his pick of Gonzalez as Dept of Justice head (and possible Supreme court Justice?), helps to give the Latino population a bit more influence.

(Of course, one could definitely argue Bush's agenda wasn;t sincere towards to LAtino population, and Gonzalez is pretty much in his pocket rather than an influence... it certainly wouldn't surprise me in the least on either count)

And there's no doubt that the terrorist groups are wll financed... their sheer tenacity and ability to fund and support the insurgencies happening where ever they happen is more than enough proof of that.

And I think you're right, a great deal of the pressure on the U.S. is that the aura of invincibility is gone, which works against us on a psyche/paranoia level, as well as for the other side, from an ego level. "Weve hit them once, we can do it again, whenever we want!" and that line of thought. I think that mindset, more than the physical realities of the border makes for things being a bit more dangerous. Sorry if that was unclear. I think we agree more there than not.



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Random-
seems that we do agree on more than I thought. Pleasure chatting as always.


BTW, does anybody else find it amusing that we couldn't get a dedicated literbike section, but we have one for Latin?
 
Why are you so angry?

Excellent, you turn my sharing of information and data into a personal issue.   I knew it was right around the corner, and right on schedule too.  You have a bright future as a no-substance political puindit ahead of you.

Anyways...

I'm not angry.  I just have a hard time taking the arguments of someone who can;t be bothered to back up his own claims too seriously.  You sit there and tell me thatthe research I've found is biased bullsh1t, and yet you haven't managed to find anything to refute, and even tell me to do it for you.  Not going to do it.  

How my reiterating that I'm finding information that directly refutes your stand on an issue translates into being angry, I have no idea.

Besides, statements like

Did some Illegal Messican take your good job picking tomatos or cooking at Pancho's? Did all those Mexico funneled terrorists blow up your house? Or was it all that money you spent trying to isolate yourself from Illegals only to realize that your nanny growing up was illegal too, or cleaning lady, gardener, mechanic, or maybe even the girl you paid on the street last night for sex because you are too tightly wound to relax around women without just losing your load before asking what their sign is?[/QUOTE]

strike me more as you being the angry and irrational one.  But hey, to each their own.

Also, regarding this little nugget of joy:

You can just be happy that in your mind you are right and I am just a biased brown simpleton that happens to ride a Hayabusa and has an opinion about things other than bikes, speeding tickets, and when the next busa bash is. [/QUOTE]

Go through my quotes... I don't think I've ever expressed any worry about any of those things, well except the new BMW, maybe.  

Also, congratulations on allowing your sarcastic beligerence insult a good chunk of the poeple on this board.  Way to be.

Trust me, I'm not holding my breath waiting for you to respond -- you've more than proven your complete lack of, or unwillingness to produce, actual information, much less anything interesting.  I simply am one of those poor bastards who likes having correct information out there, silly as that may sound to you.[/QUOTE]
Look RNN,
I told you only after intermission.
I told you only after my Beer. Heck have one yourself on me.
I told you that we have no sand here.
I told you that I only get Hard-ons for chics.
I told you my vision only slants for a nice rear when tanning.
I told you to hold your breath.
I told you to do it again.
I told you to do it over and over and over.
I told you I would tell you to stop (holding your breath).

You're smart because you figured out that I was being sarcastic.
You are not smart because you insulted me and the attentive public here with your other than mature remarks, poor attempts at wit, as well as your communication style.
I just reciprocated your nonsense.

I think it is great that you are supporting your argument.
Good for you, it shows an inordinate amount of motivation on your part, quite uncommon in America these days. I will think about hiring you for my staff when I make a run at public office. You'll come in handy. Send me your resume and contact information. Presently, I am setting up www.applieddemocracy.org and will be able to take your details there or just PM me here.
This was never about statitics, rather about societal defects prevalent in Contemporary (Present Day) America.

You can breathe now.
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seems that we do agree on more than I thought. Pleasure chatting as always.


BTW, does anybody else find it amusing that we couldn't get a dedicated literbike section, but we have one for Latin?

Always nice to have a thought-out conversation with intelligent people.

Yeah, that is kinda, odd... What we need is a good Latin Literbike. then the whole board would get taken over. ;)



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HUMM .....I Thought this was a Hayabusa.org post not a Latin post...NOT to be mean or anything but ..this is suppose to be a bike related forum... not no "let my people free forum" I know we are "all "proud of our "race" and all.AH HECK I think the next post I put up will be a "ASIAN SECTION"! LMAO
 
HUMM .....I Thought this was a Hayabusa.org post not a Latin post...NOT to be mean or anything but ..this is suppose to be a bike related forum... not no "let my people free forum" I know we are "all "proud of our "race" and all.AH HECK I think the next post I put up will be a "ASIAN SECTION"! LMAO
Hey man welcome to Hayabusa_Latino.org
It is nice to have someone from Hayabusa_Asian.org here visiting.
Actually Wago,
The information here is motorcycle related because we are Hayabusa owners and operators.
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WOW!! not trying to dig up old wounds or anything, but I ran across this today, thought it was pretty relevant on this issue, kind of speaks on both sides of the issue

Immigration Sting Puts 2 U.S. Agencies at Odds

The article contents:


WASHINGTON, July 15 - The 48 immigrants thought they were attending mandatory safety training by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. But it was not until they showed up to the meeting in Goldsboro, N.C., last week that they discovered they had been summoned for an altogether different reason.

Federal immigration officials had posted fliers telling immigrant workers for several subcontractors at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in Goldsboro that they had to attend a safety meeting. There was no meeting, however; instead there was a sting operation in which immigration officials arrested 48 people on charges that they were illegal immigrants from Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador and Ukraine.

The action had one branch of the federal government speaking out against another. The United States Labor Department as well as North Carolina's Labor Department on Friday criticized the sting, suggesting that it would make immigrant workers distrust safety officials just when safety agencies across the nation are stepping up efforts to reduce the disproportionately high injury rate among Hispanic workers.

Pam Groover, a spokeswoman for the federal labor department , said, "This is not something we were involved in, and we do not condone the use of OSHA's name in this type of activity." The Occupational Safety and Health Administration is the branch of the federal Labor Department that sets and enforces standards for workplace safety. Dean Boyd, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which carried out the sting, said it was part of a stepped-up effort to crack down on illegal immigrants working at chemical plants, nuclear plants and other sensitive facilities.

Defending the use of ruses, Mr. Boyd said: "The primary reason to use tactics like this in federal law enforcement is to get people in a location where they can be arrested without running all over the place. That helps ensure the safety of these immigrants, the agents, the air base and the community at large."

Mr. Boyd said that as far as he knew this was the first time that immigration officials had enticed immigrants by representing themselves as OSHA officials.

"We certainly understand OSHA's concerns about the use of their name," Mr. Boyd said. "We're putting in place procedures to ensure appropriate coordination."

Mr. Boyd said the immigration bureau also used a ruse to help gather 60 illegal immigrants who were arrested on May 20 at petrochemical plants in six states. He declined to discuss details, but he said immigration and prosecutors have long used subterfuges to bring in people for arrest.

"For many years we have used undercover techniques in drug investigations, arms investigations and money-laundering investigations," Mr. Boyd said.

Juan Santos, the spokesman for North Carolina labor commissioner, Cherie Killian Berry, a Republican, said he hoped such stings using the OSHA name would never happen again.

"We're not at all opposed to what the federal government is doing to fight illegal immigration," Mr. Santos said. "Our concern is that when you start stinging people using the name of safety officials, you undermine the trust relationships we work very hard to build to help promote safety with employers and employees."

Immigrant groups and labor groups said the sting sent the wrong message when the federal and state labor departments had undertaken programs to reduce workplace injuries for Hispanics. In 2001, Labor Secretary Elaine L. Chao announced an education and training effort to reduce fatalities among Hispanic workers after studies showed their fatality rate was 20 percent higher than those of white and black workers.

"We think it's an absolute outrage and danger for the immigration authorities to use this type of tactic," said Cecilia Munoz, vice president for policy at the National Council of La Raza, an advocacy group for Hispanics. "Our labor law system is completely complaint-driven, and our ability to keep the work force safe depends on workers being able to complain, and by masquerading as OSHA officials, immigration authorities will clearly discourage immigrant workers from coming forward. This won't affect just immigrant workers, it will affect the safety of all workers."

Joe Hansen, president of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, which represents more than 100,000 Hispanic workers, said, "The word being brought back to worksites after a scam like this is that OSHA can't be trusted. That kind of perception diminishes OSHA's ability to do the critical work of protecting America's labor force."

Felipe Bravo, a 47-year-old immigrant from Mexico City, was arrested at the meeting at the Air Force base, but was released when he proved that he was an American citizen. But he said his brother, Domingo, was arrested and faces deportation. They installed air conditioners and heating equipment, while many of the others worked in construction, lawn mowing or cleaning.

Mr. Bravo said that the government officials first served coffee and doughnuts and that one official stood up and said, "I got good news and bad news. The good news is we are not from OSHA, and the bad news is we're from the immigration office."

He said a swarm of immigration agents then entered the theater.

"It's not fair because they got my brother on false information, on having false papers, but they also used false information," Mr. Bravo said. "I agree with the government about trying to protect us against terrorism. That's good. But these people aren't terrorists. They came here to work."

Mr. Boyd said, "We believe it is a very serious vulnerability when there are illegal aliens working at Air Force bases, nuclear power plants, chemical plants and airports. They have access to some of the most sensitive work sites in the U.S. Our job is to take actions to immediately remove them from positions where they can do harm."



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I was done here...but since it's still a "lively" thread....

Putt'em to work video

a little less than politically correct...but still funny.



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This was never about statitics, rather about societal defects prevalent in Contemporary (Present Day) America.

You can breathe now.  
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Hey Thrasher,
That is a good article. It makes sense to round up Illegals on a military installation simply due to the nature of work on-site and OPSEC.
However, what does that say about hiring practices at the firms supporting the war effort?
Again for me it is always about the bigger issue and not the nuances. You know as well as I do that this 48 person arrest is insignificant compared to overall immigration numbers on an annual even a monthly basis. I qouted myself from a few posts up just to re-illustrate the object of this thread...
 
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