I can't believe I am going to type this...

Why are we not talking about the person who fed him these so called stolen documents ?
Have they been charged or arrested ?
That's a great point, Blanca. It ties in with what I've been saying, i.e. WikiLeaks are publishing material stolen by someone other than WikiLeaks, so who is the responsible party? - The publisher...or the thief?

This guy is one of the sources: Bradley Manning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ann Coulter just wrote a really interesting article about him. Whether you like her or not, the article certainly makes some valid points.
Welcome to AnnCoulter.com
 
Why are we not talking about the person who fed him these so called stolen documents ?
Have they been charged or arrested ?

This guy is in custody and his life is over as he knows it... I am embarrased to say he is from Oklahoma..
 
This guy is in custody and his life is over as he knows it... I am embarrased to say he is from Oklahoma..

I see. Kinda sucks for him though cuz in days of old a reporters source would not have been known and would have been protected .
We still don't know who Kronkites 'deepthoat' was do we ?
 
I see. Kinda sucks for him though cuz in days of old a reporters source would not have been known and would have been protected .
We still don't know who Kronkites 'deepthoat' was do we ?

Bob Woodward is who you meant to say, and yes it was revealed to be FBI Director Felt. He was on the short list of possible sources for a long time.
 
Here is what I don't understand about all of this and how it relates to us at Hayabusa.org:

First, did the guy betray his country? I'm not sure. I know that the UCMJ actually protects those who try to do the right thing by exposing things that are absolutely wrong either through the chain of command (by side stepping someone in that chain if need be) or via other methods (ie the media or otherwise). Where this gets sticky is when we start looking at the classification of documents. They are "national secrets". So let's just leave that on the back burner for now for the sake of discussion - we will return to this though.

Now that we're not discussing "national secrets" and we're looking at the reality those leaked items warehouse, my first thought is to the video shot from a helicopter that is observing and then opening fire on potential Al Qaeda operatives. That video is what landed the young PFC in the brig and started the whole interest in WikiLeaks.

While those are human lives that I think should be spared unless we're 99.99% sure (or more) of who they are, also I don't know the conditions nor have the intel to support or speak out against the actions of that gunship. However, there are several very disturbing facts to me as a 37 year old former Marine.

1. There were an awful lot of mobilized infantry on the scene IMMEDIATELY after the chopper had killed or wounded everyone. Why were we not looking to use those troops to secure the area and ultimately the living hostages. Good intel work is made better through questioning not killing.

2. There were two children in a van that arrived to take the wounded away after the first group of men were fired. These children were clearly seen through the passenger window of the van and identified as such. We (the US forces) directed the chopper to fire on the van anyway, seriously wounding both children.

3. The initial group of men that were fired upon were not in fact Al Qaeda. One was a reporter for either the newpaper or TV station - I forget which. (It's in the documents that WikiLeaks released though - we did identify our "whoops")

4. In the video the first ground troops on the scene pulled the fairly limp wounded bodies of those children out of the van first and rushed them to be evacuated from the area and treated.​

Now, we need to ask ourselves a couple questions here.

Why are were accepting our governments cover-up of these types of events simply because they are "our government"?

When is it okay to have alternate (ie non-lethal - by using troops on the ground to capture and interrogate these individuals) means of removing a threat and instead resort "shoot first, cover up later" methods?

If these were your friends standing around talking who get shot up. Then you race over like any NORMAL HUMAN in your van to help them once the shooting seems to have stopped... only to have your 4-6 year old daughter shot up in your van... would you want that force to remain in your country?!

Finally, as a twenty year old Marine, I can tell you, if I saw this type of material, I would have been very conflicted about what to do with it. This is potentially a war crime that not only did we commit, but we also identified it as a mistake, and then documented it.

Now, in order to keep our dark little screw up under wraps we label it as "secret" or "top secret", thus preventing our citizens back home from knowing about it. The helicopter pilot did his job as instructed and he has no clue what the actual damage was. The troops on the ground don't truly know how or why this all happened as "collateral damage" is something that is easy to explain and unfortunately, accept. And because all the moving parts don't relate to one another directly, no one individual - save our PFC and several others in the intel world - can put it all back together. Thus, the US citizens and media will never hear of this.

Seems pretty dastardly to me at best.

I'm a little unsettled to hear so many of my fellow board members get hung up on "national security" and not see clearly the offensive nature with which our government operates at times. The cover-ups (ahem, security classifications associated with the documentation of reality) are just the rancid red fruit on top. Why shouldn't we know this?

Our country is behaving like the playground bully at times and THAT is what is most upsetting to me. I'm proud that the PFC was human though I agree he should have gone through proper channels first (he may have but we don't have the whole story).

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Classified documents that were STOLEN, if this same act was to happen from a person that claimed to be part of Al Qaeda the world would be screaming terrorism... that is exactly what this guy has done... in my opinion he is an enemy of the state and has published classified documents...

As a Canadian over here in the....well we'll call it the $hit...I think this man shout be strung up! He is endangering lives! Document marked "classified" are marked that way for a reason! Please find this guy and let me and my Americian brother over here have a "chat" with him....then we'll see if his "wiki" leaks!
 
That's just opinion, Cap. He hasn't broken any laws, as far as I can see.
I disagree with his publication of certain information, but I don't think he has actually committed a crime.

do you still not think it is a crime? Even if he recieved the papers from soneone else, technically he should have realized that passing top secret documents fall under espionage.

There is nothing wrong with publishing said documents after the time limit expires. Most of you dont know this but there is a time limit to these things.

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: es·pi·o·nage
Pronunciation: 'es-pE-&-"näzh, -"näj, -nij
Function: noun
: the practice of gathering, transmitting, or losing through gross negligence information relating to the defense of the U.S. with the intent that or with reason to believe that the information will be used to the injury of the U.S. or the advantage of a foreign nation

he is another one that he could technically get hung for.

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: trea·son
Pronunciation: 'trEz- & noun
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French treison crime of violence against a person to whom allegiance is owed, literally, betrayal, from Old French traïson , from traïr to betray, from Latin tradere to hand over, surrender
: the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country or of assisting its enemies in war; specifically : the act of levying war against the United States or adhering to or giving aid and comfort to its enemies by one who owes it allegiance — trea·son·ous /-&s/ adjective
 
Here is what I don't understand about all of this and how it relates to us at Hayabusa.org:

First, did the guy betray his country? I'm not sure. I know that the UCMJ actually protects those who try to do the right thing by exposing things that are absolutely wrong either through the chain of command (by side stepping someone in that chain if need be) or via other methods (ie the media or otherwise). Where this gets sticky is when we start looking at the classification of documents. They are "national secrets". So let's just leave that on the back burner for now for the sake of discussion - we will return to this though.

Now that we're not discussing "national secrets" and we're looking at the reality those leaked items warehouse, my first thought is to the video shot from a helicopter that is observing and then opening fire on potential Al Qaeda operatives. That video is what landed the young PFC in the brig and started the whole interest in WikiLeaks.

While those are human lives that I think should be spared unless we're 99.99% sure (or more) of who they are, also I don't know the conditions nor have the intel to support or speak out against the actions of that gunship. However, there are several very disturbing facts to me as a 37 year old former Marine.

1. There were an awful lot of mobilized infantry on the scene IMMEDIATELY after the chopper had killed or wounded everyone. Why were we not looking to use those troops to secure the area and ultimately the living hostages. Good intel work is made better through questioning not killing.

2. There were two children in a van that arrived to take the wounded away after the first group of men were fired. These children were clearly seen through the passenger window of the van and identified as such. We (the US forces) directed the chopper to fire on the van anyway, seriously wounding both children.

3. The initial group of men that were fired upon were not in fact Al Qaeda. One was a reporter for either the newpaper or TV station - I forget which. (It's in the documents that WikiLeaks released though - we did identify our "whoops")

4. In the video the first ground troops on the scene pulled the fairly limp wounded bodies of those children out of the van first and rushed them to be evacuated from the area and treated.​

Now, we need to ask ourselves a couple questions here.

Why are were accepting our governments cover-up of these types of events simply because they are "our government"?

When is it okay to have alternate (ie non-lethal - by using troops on the ground to capture and interrogate these individuals) means of removing a threat and instead resort "shoot first, cover up later" methods?

If these were your friends standing around talking who get shot up. Then you race over like any NORMAL HUMAN in your van to help them once the shooting seems to have stopped... only to have your 4-6 year old daughter shot up in your van... would you want that force to remain in your country?!

Finally, as a twenty year old Marine, I can tell you, if I saw this type of material, I would have been very conflicted about what to do with it. This is potentially a war crime that not only did we commit, but we also identified it as a mistake, and then documented it.

Now, in order to keep our dark little screw up under wraps we label it as "secret" or "top secret", thus preventing our citizens back home from knowing about it. The helicopter pilot did his job as instructed and he has no clue what the actual damage was. The troops on the ground don't truly know how or why this all happened as "collateral damage" is something that is easy to explain and unfortunately, accept. And because all the moving parts don't relate to one another directly, no one individual - save our PFC and several others in the intel world - can put it all back together. Thus, the US citizens and media will never hear of this.

Seems pretty dastardly to me at best.

I'm a little unsettled to hear so many of my fellow board members get hung up on "national security" and not see clearly the offensive nature with which our government operates at times. The cover-ups (ahem, security classifications associated with the documentation of reality) are just the rancid red fruit on top. Why shouldn't we know this?

Our country is behaving like the playground bully at times and THAT is what is most upsetting to me. I'm proud that the PFC was human though I agree he should have gone through proper channels first (he may have but we don't have the whole story).

I agree with ya brother, but if anything they could have been a little selective about what they released. If I had a copy of something that was a war crime then sure I would have made a couple copies and then brought them to the proper authorities, not post them for the world to see. There is a difference bigger then a thin line between doing the right thing and trying to hurt thouasands of soldiers still in harms way.
 
my opinion is just a little different on this i guess. you see i am one of those that thinks people need to do for themselves a lot more then they need the government or authorities to do for them. I think from reading all the posts and researching this futher on google yahoo and numerous web and news sites that i have to say that it is more of a shame on the politicions type thing. I say alot of the actions that are covered up under the term"top Secret" truely arent top secret. They are just an imbarrassment for someone in a position of authority. I think people in positions like this are overly protected and have passed so many rules and laws to protect themselves and the bs they pull its enough to make anyone sick. there was a comment made earlier about time limits being set on secret docs till they can be made public. This is a line of bs too. The majority of the time limits are to protect the fools that have screwd the pooch. Its a shame and a complete shamble the way this country is run. We have a bunch of lieing garbage in positions of authority that treat this country and its people like a bunch of barbie and ken dolls they can manipulate how they see fit with no retribution for doing it. these same people try to force our ways of life and our rules down the gullets of other nations of people because we are strong enough that we think we can. Nothing that was leaked in those documents that has been publisized was anything more then an embarrasment to people in positions of authority. Thats why its being made into such a big deal. my 2 cents
 
Viperbluebusa, I think you may be quite close there.
I see it as a Witch Hunt because someone has shown
up their ever growing list of failures and dirty deeds.

Maybe those that shout the loudest, have the most to hide.
 
Wow, all I can say is wow. After reading this thread, my initial thought is to sell my hayabusa. Really, most of these posts border on totalitarianism with a smidge of dictatorship. Hey I get it, complete control over the press, hell it worked for Stalin and he never did anything bad. I mean how many people do they estimate that he killed?
yeah instead of selling my bike, I think that I shall just refrain from coming to this site anymore. Seriously, you can't pick and choose what speech is free, its an all or nothing type of thing.
 
Wow, all I can say is wow. After reading this thread, my initial thought is to sell my hayabusa.

Oh, c'mon now, Vigosama... I trust you are kidding. It's the "Randon Thoughts" sub-forum... you're going to read stuff here that is occasionally contentious. That's virtually guaranteed when the subject is politics or religion, because these subjects, when discussed on a world-wide public forum, are as never-ending as they are pointless. No agreement or consensus is to be had when these two subjects are discussed. Ever. You might as well ask which oil is best for your Busa.... :laugh:

Instead, take a different perspective... consider it to be free entertainment! :whistle:

Too, these pointless threads are instructive in that you can see a particular forum member's position on these subjects, giving you insight into him/her... and perhaps allowing you to be more selective in what you say to them in the future. ;)

For example....

I find it interesting that anyone would cite FoxNews as a credible news source that is actually "fair and balanced"... clearly, nothing is farther from the truth. It is Fox "Entertainment" News... and to be entertainment, they have to "entertain" viewers with goofy extremest a$$clowns such as Glen Beck, Sarah Palin, various Fundies, etc. It's all for show/ratings... it damn sure isn't about impartial discussions of serious issues.

Rather.... it's "entertainment".... :beerchug:
 
Yeah Warchild, I was kidding.
Sort of, but on second thoughts, instead of selling my bike, I think I need to just go out there and make a "poor life choice" with a woman of questionable virtue...
 
Yeah Warchild, I was kidding.
Sort of, but on second thoughts, instead of selling my bike, I think I need to just go out there and make a "poor life choice" with a woman of questionable virtue...

LOLOLOL....spoken like a true comedian...i like it. I see iowa as locale? im far west on river you?
 
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