RedBull
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Half of Americans pay NO income tax
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Mr Brown
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Yes, organizations and individuals are typically rational actors. The question then becomes why you (and others) think that people are wrong for acting in a manner you agree is rational? Shouldn't the blame fall on the structure that allows the wrong thing to be rational?
TallTom
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You're attempting to stretch the term rational to blur right and wrong into the same thing. I don't blame you personally. It's what a good portion of America seems to be really good at now.
Opiod drugs are a pure greed concept that was irrationally made legal for the sake of huge profits. I support president Trump in any efforts he undertakes that puts an end to the Opiod problem in America. It's about time somebody did. I would love to see everyone from top to bottom pay a price via fines and or jail and or permanent loss of ability to work in the field again.
It should further be made illegal for a drug company to raise the price of anything more than say 15% without a review as to why.
Now then. Do we round up all the street dealers and expect no less a punishment? Or will we cry they we're just poor underpriveleged kids with no good choices so they had to?
Mr Brown
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I'm not stretching or blurring anything, I think you're lacking an understanding of what rational means, which is another thing Americans are very good at, particularly when the actual definition doesn't marry with their world view. Rationality is concerned with logic and reason, right and wrong are moral positions. They're not the same.
Opiods are like other classes of drugs, they serve a specific purpose. Greed co-opted the process and capitalism encouraged the environment that we now find ourselves in. Funny how the opiod crisis became a public health issue when it started affecting rich white folks. Before that, treatment was not a priority, incarceration was. Trump isn't any more interested in stopping the opiod problem than he is anything else. Perdue Pharma are complicit in creating the problem, and you haven't heard him say a word about them. If you think Trump cares about anything other than himself, you're a fool.
It would be nice to see corporations and individuals held accountable for their actions, I'd support any legislation that accomplished it. I also like the idea of limited profit on necessary drugs, but that's socialist and we know how that plays with the faithful.
Once you achieve the goal of holding all the corporate elite accountable you'll get no argument from me about doing the same for street level dealers. As long as the system remains biased, I'll call it out.
TallTom
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Ok now I'm clear on our differences. Rationalization in your world has nothing to do with right or wrong. One is a thought process of logic and reason devoid of the idea that morals are a part of rationalization.
In my world selling drugs illegally is irrational as much as immoral. Selling Opiods legally in order to addict someone is both immoral and wrong to me. The same with cigarettes or insert any legal but abused for profit drug you want.
Opiods is a problem because 30% of our population is addicted to them. Not 30% of the white or black or rich or poor. 30% of our population. If it matters to you who it is that's addicted we can get into it, but you're going to be disappointed to learn that it ain't about rich white people. They have more money to buy rehab efforts, more money for insurance etc. So play the rich white card all you like. Big Pharma don't care, they addict all they can.
If you'd care to review all the efforts your beloved Obama did to intervene in the problem, before it got named a national healthcare emergency, I'd love to hear about it.
If I as a taxpayer are now being burdened to provide the care for everybody's healthcare, we are already in socialized medicine. I'm just trying to force some oversight on how much of an increase I am going to be told will be manually inserted into my rectum for a drug that I personally am not using, I'm just paying the cost of someone else to. It would be nice to have some ability to say let's at least cap how much we have to take at a time. Or have some say that NO you can't get that much more profit just because Big Pharma according to you can be devoid of morals as long as they use good rationalization skills.
Yeah socialized medicine is gonna bankrupt us. I find that not only wrong but immoral.
In my world selling drugs illegally is irrational as much as immoral. Selling Opiods legally in order to addict someone is both immoral and wrong to me. The same with cigarettes or insert any legal but abused for profit drug you want.
Opiods is a problem because 30% of our population is addicted to them. Not 30% of the white or black or rich or poor. 30% of our population. If it matters to you who it is that's addicted we can get into it, but you're going to be disappointed to learn that it ain't about rich white people. They have more money to buy rehab efforts, more money for insurance etc. So play the rich white card all you like. Big Pharma don't care, they addict all they can.
If you'd care to review all the efforts your beloved Obama did to intervene in the problem, before it got named a national healthcare emergency, I'd love to hear about it.
If I as a taxpayer are now being burdened to provide the care for everybody's healthcare, we are already in socialized medicine. I'm just trying to force some oversight on how much of an increase I am going to be told will be manually inserted into my rectum for a drug that I personally am not using, I'm just paying the cost of someone else to. It would be nice to have some ability to say let's at least cap how much we have to take at a time. Or have some say that NO you can't get that much more profit just because Big Pharma according to you can be devoid of morals as long as they use good rationalization skills.
Yeah socialized medicine is gonna bankrupt us. I find that not only wrong but immoral.
RedBull
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Mr Brown
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Rationalization and morality are defined, concrete concepts. It's not a matter of interpretation or nuance, there is no "in my world..." definition. They are distinct, individual entities. I can provide you with the names of some books to read on the subject if you're interested.
By your logic, a pacifist should be able to opt out of paying the portion of their taxes that is earmarked for the military. I'm sure you'd be fine with that, right?
We have many, many differences, but that's to be expected. You fail to see either the irony or the inconsistency of your stated positions. You're convinced that you have the market cornered on morality, truth, interpretation and understanding. You cannot conceive of a different perspective, thus your invalidation of all but your own. I pity you and those like you, it must be awful to be that angry all the time. Should we meet in person, I'll gladly pick up this and other discussions we've had if you wish, but I think for now it's best that I step away from this interaction. As I've noted before, you have your world view and I mine, I fully understand what you're implying and I find it distasteful. Have a pleasant evening.
By your logic, a pacifist should be able to opt out of paying the portion of their taxes that is earmarked for the military. I'm sure you'd be fine with that, right?
We have many, many differences, but that's to be expected. You fail to see either the irony or the inconsistency of your stated positions. You're convinced that you have the market cornered on morality, truth, interpretation and understanding. You cannot conceive of a different perspective, thus your invalidation of all but your own. I pity you and those like you, it must be awful to be that angry all the time. Should we meet in person, I'll gladly pick up this and other discussions we've had if you wish, but I think for now it's best that I step away from this interaction. As I've noted before, you have your world view and I mine, I fully understand what you're implying and I find it distasteful. Have a pleasant evening.
RedBull
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Mr Brown
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Red, I know you speak through video, but I'm not going to waste my time listening to that self-aggrandizing sack of chit. I despise him.
Unsocialized medicine is bankrupting us too, another obvious reality we just pretend isn't real. Amazing to me that anyone who owns a business and has to have the yearly meeting where an insurance agent comes in your office and rapes you could not support some sort of rational healthcare policy. It's pretty hard to rationalize giving an insurance company 25-30% more to do what medicare can do for 5-6%.
TallTom
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Of course it is I who has no concept of a view different from mine.
It also isn't I who rationalizes if my POS welfare whoring family members are smart because they have learned to eff the social programs to make a living off of. They are both wrong, and immoral by any standard I care to measure them in. But they aren't stupid because they have learned how to rip off the programs. We, as in our government is STUPID for making a system so easy to eff over. I'm all for Trump's effort to make drug testing a mandatory part of receiving social assistance. I'm all for him making able bodied people provide some measured length of community service in exchange for free handouts.
If the mom's can stay home and watch their kids, they can provide childcare for those that are working to support theirs.
I guess my next step is to ask Amazon to ask Pres Trump to overhaul the tax code because they feel morally obligated to.
It also isn't I who rationalizes if my POS welfare whoring family members are smart because they have learned to eff the social programs to make a living off of. They are both wrong, and immoral by any standard I care to measure them in. But they aren't stupid because they have learned how to rip off the programs. We, as in our government is STUPID for making a system so easy to eff over. I'm all for Trump's effort to make drug testing a mandatory part of receiving social assistance. I'm all for him making able bodied people provide some measured length of community service in exchange for free handouts.
If the mom's can stay home and watch their kids, they can provide childcare for those that are working to support theirs.
I guess my next step is to ask Amazon to ask Pres Trump to overhaul the tax code because they feel morally obligated to.
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RedBull
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Red ,
I know you
speak through video ,
but I am not going to waste
my time listening to that
self - aggrandizing sack of chit .
I despise him .
~ #IwillStirThatPot *
TallTom
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The general underlying problem with our failing healthcare system is it is for profit. That and the added liability that attorneys love to sue doctors for many levels of healthcare. We see it on TV almost daily now. Did you have side effects from radiation therapy for cancer?
Call us we will get you money.
Never mind that they saved your life, that side effect will make us millions.
Malpractice premiums aren't going down. Student debt for medical school isn't less. Medical equipment cost hasn't gone down in cost. Medical buildings aren't renting for less.
But let's pay the doctor's less and promise them they make up for it with more volume. Trust me they already work more hours than most of us do before we decided to pay them less.
We should change Redbull's name to V-Mime
You are missing the point. The cost for all that stuff you listed is basically the same for either healthcare system. But with an insurance company they take 30% of your healthcare dollar as a fee for paying your doctor, which Medicare will do for less than 10% of your dollar! Insurance companies don't do anything to make you healthier, nothing.
You are one huge sucker if you let rich people tell you it's socialism if you pool your resources with other consumers to get the maximum value from your healthcare purchase. Is it socialism when we buy a plane we don't need to put billions in a company's pocket?
You are missing the point. The cost for all that stuff you listed is basically the same for either healthcare system. But with an insurance company they take 30% of your healthcare dollar as a fee for paying your doctor, which Medicare will do for less than 10% of your dollar! Insurance companies don't do anything to make you healthier, nothing.
You are one huge sucker if you let rich people tell you it's socialism if you pool your resources with other consumers to get the maximum value from your healthcare purchase. Is it socialism when we buy a plane we don't need to put billions in a company's pocket?
TallTom
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Socialized anything is when a government uses public funds (taxes) to provide a service to all. That isn't a rich person's definition of it. Look I'm for a National Healthcare system. Yes even a socialized system if you will. What Obama wanted to do I supported. What he left off of the plan was cost control. That fell far short of being effective. You don't tell the docs, OK your operating cost is the same, but we now force your income down. They simply lay off staff, and find ways to pad the bill.
Hey here's an idea, let's use the same approach Obama did to build the wall. If you don't pay a tax to build the wall, we just fine you more.
You shouldn't take issue with that should you?
If you can name me one program run by the government that's run more cost effective than any portion of the private segment I'm all ears. The government providing us anything is about the least cost effective way to do anything. No way in hell will something as complex as healthcare be an exception.
You are amazing. I just pointed out that private insurance companies are doing exactly what Medicare does and charging you 25-30% more. Medicare satisfaction is way above private insurance too. I'll say it again slowly: They do it better and cheaper than private insurance companies. I am always amazed at the gap in understanding on this. Private company's goal is to relieve you of as much money as possible and do the least amount for it - that's what profits are all about. The government is working for you, they don't care about profit. It's like talking to a parrot: "Government Bad" "industry good!"
TallTom
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So in your proposed theory, we have an insurance company that charges a 30% fee on top of any bill the doc charges for a service?
I just want to break it down in simple terms. I'd like to get a handle in this 30% that you use. And if you don't mind, I'd like to encourage some of our illustruous board members to share with us the cost of their insurance premium pre and post Obamacare to see how that 30% theory looks to them.
I'll set aside for now the fact that my g/f is a physician who deals with Medicare, Medicaid, private insurance, no insurance, rich and poor patients. She was a physician before the AHCA and still is now. And I will set aside the fact for now that I am provided healthcare by the U.S. Govt. The very same system in which they have proposed the National System be modeled on.
For now, let's get a handle on this 30% mark up. See if we can put it in perspective.
I'm all ears.
I do need to say this. I leave to go out of town today, so if you'd prefer to do this at a later date that's fine. Or I can catch up later on my return.
And perhaps we should start a new thread to allow others to see we have morphed this from a tax thread to a healthcare thread.
Just seems like we have gotten way off the rails of the thread topic and nobody would be thinking about posting a healthcare exchange here.
A car insurance company does not fix anything. They only distribute the cost of all crashes and pay someone to actually fix your car. Private insurance companies don't diagnose your health problems - they just spread the cost and pay the doctors. Private insurance companies take 25-30% off the top for this service, Medicare takes around 10%. Look at the profits of private insurance companies, what's the biggest building I every city? My entire family are doctors and we have had this discussion over many holiday meals. Medicare is a PIA to manage the paper, but private insurance companies not only burry the doctors with paper they even control he doctors and how they help their patients. All of this information is basically all over the place from all sorts of reliable sources.
Most of the doctors I know would gladly take less money for a better quality of life and to truly be able to care for their patients.
Have a good trip and be safe.
Most of the doctors I know would gladly take less money for a better quality of life and to truly be able to care for their patients.
Have a good trip and be safe.
