what are the pro's and cons of a super charger

[busarr1340]

Misinformed yourself is different to being misinforming others. How informed you are is not for me to judge & I was not referring to that.

Lets explore your words...




A centrfugal charger is nothing more than a gearbox driven impeller pulley related to a crankshaft speed. The boost is NOT always there as it does not even go positive on a boost gauge until after 4000rpm due to the slow speed of the charger combined with the air it moves in relation to that speed.

To then say it is more efficient than a Roots or Screw type which will go boost positive earlier is equally wrong. For their compactness the Rotrex & Procharger offer real alternatives to Turbo that can be practically mounted & ridden easily albeit not as efficient. A Roots or screw type that was properly sized for a Busa would not be the case as they would be too bulky & so "efficent" in making boost they would be very hard to ride.

I'm speaking from real world riding not theories when I say "Boost is always there" obviously if one is puddering around town they aren't caring about boost. @ 4k when the bike comes alive anyway the boost on a SC is there... a turbo is just starting to build boost. The procharger has a bigger impeller so it will take slightly longer than a rotrex...just the laws of physics no way around that. Roots and Screws are used in 1/8 and 1/4 miles because they are great for those types runs...anything longer and they ARE less efficient than a centrifugal overall...

 

[My Busa]

Pro's = You're bike will go even faster.


Con's = You're bike will go even faster.

 

[BIG CC RACING]

So opowerfulone what you are saying is its better to spin a charger faster because of its limited size to create higher boost levels that pick up the mid range?

Problem from having tested many of these is while the boost pressure is picked up the power is not. The idea of flowing more air rather than pressurising more air you will find more productive as the previous dyno graph shows.

Forced induction efficiency is measured not from how much boost you can create to make power but from how little boost you can create to make the power. A better flowing system will reduce boost with less heat & make more power.

The mid range is an irrelevance in boost pressure. Power counts.

 

[Eric DAS]

Big CC Racing nicely put.

 

[BIG CC RACING]

When I was visiting Ancient China this old ninja turbo guru told me the secret of boost....

"Boost pressure Big CC San is only a measurement of the backpressure of air that cannot get through your engine."

 

[Kojak]

Proud to have a Gen 1 Turbo Busa and a Gen 2 Supercharged Busa............... Both bikes are realy the best I ever had, both street legal, both taken often on the Autobahns for High speed racing, both Dragraced , took both also in many vacations to Italy for mountain driving.............. Will sell my mother before untill i sell one of theeese .............

 

[powerfulone]

You say while boost is picked up,power is not. I would love you to put up an NA graph with a Rotrex boosted graph of the same bike and show that it doesn't show an increase in power from idle up. I haven't seen one. If you don't need revs with a centrifugal blower the the same would hold with a turbo and turbo's are useless at low impeller speed. I have several tuning companies that have commissioned me to build Rotrex conversions for several models as they are seeing the best midrange torque of any supercharged kits they have tried. They a so impressed with the Rotrex over all the other incarnations they have commissioned TTS to design and build several other conversions. So there can't be much wrong with them. You stick to your turbo's Sean, that's what's making you money.

 

[busarr1340]

The proof is in the pudding..superchargers are a road less traveled because people are comfortable with the familiar road (turbo's). My kit has arrived in the U.S. and I will have my mechanic begin install in about a week. Ryan Shnitz will be my tuner...a friend of mine will also be receiving his kit from TTS. We ride HARD...WOT...backroad curves..drag nights, whatever we do it all! Instead of all the talk we will post REAL videos...REAL dyno#'s etc. I'll even throw in some Supercharger Vs. Turbo races! Turbo's do have alot of top end...but by the time they get to their insane power the race is about over comparing similar HP bikes! Anyone interested in real world comparisons stay tuned...I will be creating a thread of my own once my install starts....

 

[BIG CC RACING]

Busarr1340 you will love building it & love riding it. It will be good. Look forward to seeing those build pictures.

 

[busarr1340]

Thanks BIGCC...I can't wait to share my experience with everyone!

 

[Dscahill]

Good Grief, was the guy in that video on a time limit?!? slow down!! (Strange thing to say on a busa forum)

 

[Quiksilver]

That video was full of **** for a few reasons......I wont get into all of them. (Note, I own supercharged and turbo'ed vehicles)

But....

It says an advantage of turbos is the fact that it doesnt have parasitic losses because its using spent energy???? Well, thats BS, it takes a significant amount of HP to drive a turbo. People for years claim its 'free' HP.....well its not.

If you dont believe me put a turbo on your vehicle, dont hook up the up pipe and put a few socks in it (to simulate compressor load and prevent overclock)....see how much HP you have.

The video says that SCs are more reliable then turbos....because of fewer parts.
A turbo is as simple as you can get. Take a turbo apart and lay its parts out and do the same with a supercharger (dont forget to include drive belts and pulleys). The reason turbo systems are responsible for more engine failures is due to their relative ease of modifying by the owner. Sure you can put a different drive pulley on a SC but turbos have boost controllers, different gates, intercoolers, BOVs ect. Turbos can also be retro fitted to nearly any vehicle....a SC is typically built for the application. This does not mean that a properly designed turbo system is less reliable OR made the vehicle less reliable.....

The video say turbos can have dangerous boost spikes where SCs do not. Again, a properly designed system with a quality gate placed properly and sized correctly.....no 'dangerous boost spikes'.

(*I could keep going but I digress.....)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Unmentioned advantages of turbos....

Boost is regulated by gate, not RPM.
This may not be a big deal to most but lets look at someone that races in different locations. If you tune a SC at sea level, lets say 25psi at 8000 rpm, and take it to Bonneville (7.5K and 100 degrees = 10,000' air density). Now you are only making 18-20 (est) psi at the same rpm. BOOOOOOO! Because a turbo is regulated by boost, if you make 25psi at sea level you will also make 25psi at higher altitudes (until the compressor runs out of map).

The single biggest advantage over SC on a bike:

Gear based boost controllers.
Because bikes have a tiny contact patch (standard OEM profile tire) it is easy to blow away your tire. It is INSANE to have 500+ HP in 1st gear on these bikes. Because of a host of gear based boost controllers allows infinite adjustable of how boost comes on, making a bike that makes 500 HP streetable (sounds crazy but true).
-lets see a SC do this.......

Turbos also have expandability, bigger intercoolers, water, controllers, gates.....and so on. Not to mention the turbo unit themselves are considerably cheaper (well, this isnt always true!!!).



Again, I own both turbo and sc vehicles. I love them both......but for bikes turbos have taken a 1000-1 advantage for a reason. I am not saying a good SC wouldnt be cool, and more power to ya if thats the road you want to go.

(*mostly the video just pissed me off, and dont believe everything a nice production video has to say)

~JH

Sounds like your a turbo guy....

 

[BIG CC RACING]

You say while boost is picked up,power is not. I would love you to put up an NA graph with a Rotrex boosted graph of the same bike and show that it doesn't show an increase in power from idle up. I haven't seen one. If you don't need revs with a centrifugal blower the the same would hold with a turbo and turbo's are useless at low impeller speed.

Hi Richard
I really struggle to see the issue in understanding but here goes. Typically on your 10 psi boost kit the boost gauge will not go positive until at least 3500rpm. I know this having had a good 20 or so of them on my dyno & I hit full throttle from 1500rpm for mapping purposes. If your engine is in vacuum at say 50 to 60 KpA (100KPA is normal atmosphere folks) at idle your impeller has to pick up speed via rpm to change itself from a state of vacuum to positive pressure. That occurs on that kit at 3500rpm to 4000rpm where it will go past 100KPA. Your "race use" only chargers such as your 18psi & 30psi units may fare better. I have only had a few of those on the rollers.

Add the power losses of the supercharger caused from belts bearings pulleys & a supercharger to drive & also the lower compression state of the engine that automatically swipes 20hp away its not at all difficult to understand why the power is not more than a standard bike below that rpm. Can I also add for the purposes of drivability I dont think someone would want it to be excessively higher as one of the advantages of the Rotrex & the Procharger is their ease of riding compared to the traditional supercharger & boosting at 2000rpm while sounding a hoot is in fact unrideable.

Equally to imply a turbo is useless at low rpm is misconstrued biased & intellectually flawed. I fit turbo's that do not boost below 3500rpm specifically for their ridability. I can happily fit a turbo that is too small for the application & watch soemone being unable to ride it just like a supercharger would be. Turbo choice is metered to the persons requirements or ridability & usage they need. They can also be every bit as "linear" in their power delivery as a Supercharger if not better with the right acquisition of sized impellers & housings & gate control etc.

 

[Couran]

Superchargers create additional horsepower when in boost. That increased horsepower adds stresses to the engine that can exceed the safety margins that GM's engineers originally designed into the engine.

 

[MR2liter]

The single biggest advantage over SC on a bike:

Gear based boost controllers.
Because bikes have a tiny contact patch (standard OEM profile tire) it is easy to blow away your tire. It is INSANE to have 500+ HP in 1st gear on these bikes. Because of a host of gear based boost controllers allows infinite adjustable of how boost comes on, making a bike that makes 500 HP streetable (sounds crazy but true).
-lets see a SC do this.......

Turbos also have expandability, bigger intercoolers, water, controllers, gates.....and so on. Not to mention the turbo unit themselves are considerably cheaper (well, this isnt always true!!!).



Again, I own both turbo and sc vehicles. I love them both......but for bikes turbos have taken a 1000-1 advantage for a reason. I am not saying a good SC wouldnt be cool, and more power to ya if thats the road you want to go.

(*mostly the video just pissed me off, and dont believe everything a nice production video has to say)

~JH

You are overlooking the fact that on a centrifugal blower setup a wastegate can be utilized in the same manner as turbo!

 

[GNBRETT]

You are overlooking the fact that on a centrifugal blower setup a wastegate can be utilized in the same manner as turbo!

if a SC was so popular and efficient we wud see them on 99% of the forced induction PST bikes. we don't! we see Turbo's on 99% of the PST bikes.

I think ur looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. u already have a turbo setup. just add a new billet turbo to wat u already hav. I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel jus to have somthn different. sounds like a kool project tho but I jus don't really see the advantage.

ppl talk about slow spool up with a turbo lol. maybe ppl need better tuners or combos cause I never had that issue. and I don't see any SC bikes makn 650 hp like I've seen on dozens of Turbo bikes.....

 

[Don Hardcastle]

Turbos are just soooo much easier to add to motorcycle than a SC.. I've never owned either on a bike but owned both on cars.... I personally like the super charger whine better than a turbo whine. If I ever FI a motorcyle, I would like to go SC just because not many do it. That being said the amount of reliable info and experience in that realm is limited unlike with a turbo.

 

[MR2liter]

if a SC was so popular and efficient we wud see them on 99% of the forced induction PST bikes. we don't! we see Turbo's on 99% of the PST bikes.

I think ur looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. u already have a turbo setup. just add a new billet turbo to wat u already hav. I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel jus to have somthn different. sounds like a kool project tho but I jus don't really see the advantage.

ppl talk about slow spool up with a turbo lol. maybe ppl need better tuners or combos cause I never had that issue. and I don't see any SC bikes makn 650 hp like I've seen on dozens of Turbo bikes.....

No doubt that turbos are way more popular then prochargers ..
I'm not looking for a solution....because there is no problem. ..
If everyone always went the cookie cutter route there world never be any innovation in the industry..
I'm glad you are happy with your turbo bike and are trying to steer me to stay turbo.... This thread is not about my build but about the pros and cons of a blower setup. I was simply sharing my experience in the matter!

 

[bigdev]

Pro's of having a supercharger, it accelerates like the booster rocket off a Space Shuttle!, It makes you have a permanent grin when you ride it, it blows everything and anything into the weeds.

Cons.....fuel consumption is worse but who gives a poop and tire wear is a lot worse (still to find out by how much yet, see my post in this forum) but..again, who gives a poop.

That's it in a nutshell

 

[202mphbusa]

I think the DAS bike is at or over 650HP

if a SC was so popular and efficient we wud see them on 99% of the forced induction PST bikes. we don't! we see Turbo's on 99% of the PST bikes.

I think ur looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. u already have a turbo setup. just add a new billet turbo to wat u already hav. I don't see the point in reinventing the wheel jus to have somthn different. sounds like a kool project tho but I jus don't really see the advantage.

ppl talk about slow spool up with a turbo lol. maybe ppl need better tuners or combos cause I never had that issue. and I don't see any SC bikes makn 650 hp like I've seen on dozens of Turbo bikes.....