Virgina Tech "for thought"

[Over_Easy]

Random thought here. Approxiamtely 115 people, including mothers, children and babies, are killed daily from auro accidents on the American roads...where is the uproar over this? People are just numb to this fact anymore and the news is really going ape-sh*t overkill with this...to the point where people want to turn the channel when the subject is brought up for the x-millionth time.

No, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the VT shootings but four times the amount of people are killed daily on the roads. We've just come to accept it and it's not surprising to anyone anymore.

If someone died from a college/school shooting everyday over the past 20 years people would come to expect it and wouldn't be surprised one bit when it happens from then on. Just a random thought...discuss.

 

[Vic_E55_2001]

(USN05LE @ Apr. 18 2007,15:45) I have to think that while this guy fired at least 44 rds (there are 10 or 12 ppl in the hospital), someone could have tackled him, thrown a chair at him or something. He had to pause to reload. The weapons that he used only held a max of 15 rds.

Don

Exactly what I mean. Remember United 93. If you going to die anyway, why not to try and survive.

 

[Over_Easy]

(USN05LE @ Apr. 18 2007,14:39) In other countries it is required for everyone to serve 2 years in the Armed Forces immediately following high school.  

Don

By need alone based on their situation, the Israelis do this, but I believe it's around 4-6 years. But two years for US citizens sounds appropriate to me, unless rejected for health or other physical ailments.

Having said that, I honestly believe everyone should perform two years for service in the military. And before you go there, yes, that would include my kids as well. I think too many people undermine the value military service can have on individuals.

While in college, I enlisted for OCS (Officer Cadette School) in 91' after the Gulf War. Upon graduation I changed my mind, the Gulf War was more of a blip (not to undermine the efforts of those who served)...who knew it would be over in two weeks!

 

[Vic_E55_2001]

(Over_Easy @ Apr. 18 2007,15:52) Random thought here. Approxiamtely 115 people, including mothers, children and babies, are killed daily from auro accidents on the American roads...where is the uproar over this? People are just numb to this fact anymore and the news is really going ape-sh*t overkill with this...to the point where people want to turn the channel when the subject is brought up for the x-millionth time.

No, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the VT shootings but four times the amount of people are killed daily on the roads. We've just come to accept it and it's not surprising to anyone anymore.

If someone died from a college/school shooting everyday over the past 20 years people would come to expect it and wouldn't be surprised one bit when it happens from then on. Just a random thought...discuss.

We have airbags now (some cars as much as 12), ABS ,
better overall cars and roads. So we trying to make that number as small as possible. We need better driver education and jail time for repeat offenders.



I didn`t get your point, 1000s people killed every day around the globe, should we not care?

 

[Over_Easy]

(Vic_E55_2001 @ Apr. 18 2007,15:05)

(Over_Easy @ Apr. 18 2007,15:52) Random thought here.  Approxiamtely 115 people, including mothers, children and babies, are killed daily from auro accidents on the American roads...where is the uproar over this?  People are just numb to this fact anymore and the news is really going ape-sh*t overkill with this...to the point where people want to turn the channel when the subject is brought up for the x-millionth time.

No, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the VT shootings but four times the amount of people are killed daily on the roads.  We've just come to accept it and it's not surprising to anyone anymore.

If someone died from a college/school shooting everyday over the past 20 years people would come to expect it and wouldn't be surprised one bit when it happens from then on.  Just a random thought...discuss.

We have airbags now (some cars as much as 12), ABS ,
better overall cars and roads. So we trying to make that number as small as possible.  We need better driver education and  jail time for repeat offenders.  



I didn`t get your point, 1000s people killed every day around the globe, should we not care?

Airbags, ABS, and so on ..great, but the number of people killed is still up each year per capita.

"Should we not care?  That pertains directly to my point...we are sensationalizing the VT shootings
because the death toll was 32 (the POS shooter doesn't even deserve a death toll numer).  If it was only one it
would still be a story but not to this magnitude.  More people die everyday in any one of a hundred normal
everyday activities and we DON't care because of that fact alone - they are everyday occurances so it's
expected and who really cares, we just hope it doesn't happen to us.

Not trying to downplay the VT shootings, but the media and those involved want it to be a world-wide event
and if we are going to make SENSATIONAL NEWS over this to try and adjust safety legislation for campuses we
should be stressing over all the things that kill more people every single day.

 

[Vic_E55_2001]

"we should be stressing over all the things that kill more people every single day. "

I got it and I agreed with you on that.

Man, you are so right about death toll number.... 32 is the right one. Nobody want to hear what is in my head about him....

 

[Turbo-Torch]

(Over_Easy @ Apr. 18 2007,14:52) Random thought here.  Approxiamtely 115 people, including mothers, children and babies, are killed daily from auro accidents on the American roads...where is the uproar over this?  People are just numb to this fact anymore and the news is really going ape-sh*t overkill with this...to the point where people want to turn the channel when the subject is brought up for the x-millionth time.

No, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the VT shootings but four times the amount of people are killed daily on the roads.  We've just come to accept it and it's not surprising to anyone anymore.

If someone died from a college/school shooting everyday over the past 20 years people would come to expect it and wouldn't be surprised one bit when it happens from then on.  Just a random thought...discuss.

A car accident is just that...a car ACCIDENT. It's an isolated incident and a calculated risk we all take every day. There are millions of cars out on the road and accidents will happen. People drown in their own bathtubs too.

To compare car accidents to COLD BLOODED MASS MURDER is ludicrous! Hundreds of lives have been destroyed for no reason in a horrific way...do you expect there to be a 5 minute blurb about it on the 10:00 news and a small write up on the back page of your newspaper?
If you hate hearing about it so much pick up the remote and change the channel, you're not in a third world country (with mandatory military service) offering only 3 channels to choose from.

I also like to read all the random arm chair quarterback talk on how people "should" have handled things. Let's see, you're sitting a classroom minding your own business and the next thing you know a door opens and a 9mm bullet is flying towards your skull at 1300 fps. You're in a fuggin box and the only way out has a maniac standing there firing off bullets. Hey the firing stopped! Did he leave? Is he reloading? 10 seconds ago your world was great, now it's pure chaos with death all around you. Yeah let's make a cool calm decision on what to do at this point.
Furthermore there were shot and bleeding students who held the door closed and kept Cho from reentering a classroom and one professor gave his life doing the same.

Maybe I should have my niece post here and give a first hand account on what it's like when you hear screaming and then see your friends running down a hall with blood gushing out of them. What it's like to NOT know exactly what's going on or which way to run when a fellow student is hacking up his classmates with a 24" machete and 18" saw because God told him to do it.

Maybe a wiki entry on what "should" have been done could be added (from behind the safe glow of a computer monitor of course)? That way the one kid who can't move facial muscles anymore due to cut tendons will know better next time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_High_School

 

[VaBusa]

Perhaps I watch far too much news because I hear of far too many deaths under varying circumstances EVERY SINGLE DAY, but the day when a mass murder at an institution of learning "isn't a big deal" is a sad day for America.  We should never become used to losing life around us, lives of children, lives of good people...

You want to mourn the deaths of those in our society, turn on the local news, read your local papers and take a moment to pause and reflect on yet another life lost in an accident, victim of domestic violence, random murders, your local hero serving our Country.  Not every story makes national headlines, but that doesn't mean these deaths go unnoticed.  Stories like the current VT murders get press because it's not the norm and we should all hope and pray it never is...

 

[heavybusa]

I agree Chelle that is should not be the norm and it is VERY disturbing that we think it is.

BUT we have become thick skinned and understanding to a lot of things, just like this boy (the shooter, I refuse to say his name) we accept that he was different, saw he had problems, but yet we HAD to treat him equal because that is what we do.

This is becoming more and more of a problem to me, equal rights and all of this political correctness is making us weak and opening us up more and more for disaster.

 

[VaBusa]

While I agree with you on the PC stuff, the flip side would be a society of people pointing fingers at someone and labeling them, insisting they're crazy and should be committed...it's akin to being accused of being Communist decades ago or pointing a finger and saying "witch" and seeing that person killed based soley on what others had said.

There's a fine line between the two and walking in the middle has proven to be a tough road for America. It's a damn shame the fact that we now know he was labeled as a "threat to himself" didn't show up on his background check, but then I think he'd find a gun some other way or he'd sue some agency for labeling him, blah blah blah...just so many avenues to walk since hindsight's 20/20...

 

[guido4512]

(00sscam @ Apr. 18 2007,02:05) Just something i found on a board i am on.

Devastation at Virginia Tech

Jan 21, 2006
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito 381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.


Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated.


Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

...............

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus. .................

I think we're wandering fromm the original post topic here.

Read it again. And ask yourself how it may have panned out differently if just 1 of those slain students would have had a concealed defense weapon and used it to defend himself/ herself and their fellow classmates..............

 

[heavybusa]

agreed, but in this case albeit hind sight Tech had plenty of warning to put the brakes on this kid.

 

[heavybusa]

(guido4512 @ Apr. 19 2007,10:19)

(00sscam @ Apr. 18 2007,02:05) Just something i found on a board i am on.

Devastation at Virginia Tech

Jan 21, 2006
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito 381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.


Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated.


Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

...............

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus. .................

I think we're wandering fromm the original post topic here.

Read it again. And ask yourself how it may have panned out differently if just 1 of those slain students would have had a concealed defense weapon and used it to defend himself/ herself and their fellow classmates..............

There could have only been 2 deaths instead of 32.

 

[BigDawg_03Busa]

I say it again "gun laws" only hurt those trying to do it right.  This was one incident where someone purchased a gun legitimately, what about the thousands of murders annually from stolen/black market firearms?  Criminals aren't typically governed by the "law" when they plan and carryout their objectives.  

They were talking on CNN about (2) incidents where people went to their automobiles to retrieve their handguns and ended the situation.  I wander how V.Tech would have ended had someone retrieved their ACP.45?  

It's sad but I second you VaBusa it's gotten way too much pub as it is.  Let the families morn and heal rather than reliving it everytime they turn on the television.

 

[guido4512]

(BigDawg_03Busa @ Apr. 19 2007,10:30) I say it again "gun laws" only hurt those trying to do it right.  This was one incident where someone purchased a gun legitimately, what about the thousands of murders annually from stolen/black market firearms?  Criminals aren't typically governed by the "law" when they plan and carryout their objectives.  

They were talking on CNN about (2) incidents where people went to their automobiles to retrieve their handguns and ended the situation.  I wander how V.Tech would have ended had someone retrieved their ACP.45?  

...........

Right.

2 instead of 32. Still too many, but at least someone would have had a chance.

Although, I don't think anyone had time to run to their car to get their 45. If they were allowed to keep and bear arms, such as stated in the Constitution , Amendment II, this would not have panned out like it did.


It reminds of that guy in the Darwin Awards who tried to rob the crowded gunstore, armed with a pistol. He didn't survive.

Sad days.....

 

[VaBusa]

(guido4512 @ Apr. 19 2007,10:19)

(00sscam @ Apr. 18 2007,02:05) Just something i found on a board i am on.

Devastation at Virginia Tech

Jan 21, 2006
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito 381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.


Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated.


Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

...............

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus. .................

I think we're wandering fromm the original post topic here.

Read it again. And ask yourself how it may have panned out differently if just 1 of those slain students would have had  a concealed defense weapon and used it to defend  himself/ herself and their fellow classmates..............

You are assuming here that the law would have changed the facts in this case and I would argue that most students at a university wouldn't even think to carry a weapon...look at the statistics of who we lost on Monday: a young Mom of 2 girls, freshman students in their very first year of college, professors...allowing possession of guns probably would not have changed these people demographically. I would have just been another student sitting in class. Who would ever consider what happened on Monday happening at any university?

It's supposed to be a safe haven for learning, not a place for mass murder...

Everything at this point is only us playing Monday morning quarterback. I think in the end, ANYONE that wants to die, wants to take out as many as he possibly can in the process WILL DO SO. Sure, if just one person had a gun in those classrooms, the outcome may have been different, but we'll never know...it's all just speculation from here on out...

 

[guido4512]

Yer right Va - pure speculation.
But -

The people you mention above are the ones who need to protect themselves (and others)- the most.

NO WHERE is safe these days. Be it a college classroom , a 7 Eleven, or a crowded interstate. Or even a Church. Believe it.

Look at this analogy:

Lot's of people like boating. Lot's of people wear life jackets and lot's don't. The ones that wear them are the one's that survive when the unthinkable happens to the boat. The one's that don't wear them usually are ok , day after day - until one day, the boat goes down........... then they wish they had one (if they are still conscious).

 

[VaBusa]

As a person that doesn't care to have a gun on her person, but certainly NOT willing to take that right away from others, I would argue that there are demographically a ton of people that would never entertain that thought.  

"These kinds of people" you refer to just don't view our environment in that same way.  I would walk in to any classroom, as I did all through high school and at VT and CNU and never think twice about my own safety while sitting in that room, just as I expect to be safe while shopping in my local grocery store and while standing in line at the DMV, etc.  I was very aware of my own safety while walking the vast VT campus as a girl alone, and got in the habit of having my keys in between each finger of my right hand should I need to take a swing at someone LOL, but you're talking about individuals that don't have that same frame of mind and wouldn't entertain the idea of carrying a gun for protection. I'm purely speculating here, but I just don't envision a freshman student at any college USA thinking "hey, I sure wish I had a gun when I went to class". I don't know that changes in the laws would change that much, but I could be wrong. Again, all speculation...

I'd venture to say the split in America is close to 50/50 as to whether you'd carry a gun if you could.  Just because the laws may be in place to do so does not ever mean the vast majority would opt to carry a gun.

 

[thrasherfox]

I personally think every legal / US Citizen that does not have a fellony or any other major criminal history AND can pass a pshyche test AND is at least 21 years old should be allowed to carry a concealed gun.

I would speculate once a large amount of citizens started carrying guns, the first 6 months we would probably see some kind of increase in death, but then after about 6 months when people started getting a clue that they cant just attack someone, or shoot at someone without a high probability of getting whacked, I would then guess that you would see crime all across the board drop.


I doubt the VT incident would have occured, or would have been as severe if it was known every teacher was packing on 1/3 of the students were packing firearms


I would have to search for the following data and dont feel like doing so at the moment (I might later) but I have heard there have been numerous studies in areas such as Arizona that allow people to carry guns and the over all crime rate is lower than in places where people are not allowed to carry.


When are people going to get a clue that the US is filled with guns. when you through laws take away peoples rights to carry and own firearms, all you are doing is taking the rights away from law abiding citizens who most are not the ones to worry about commiting crimes.

The criminals and others who commit these type of acts such as at VT do not worry about laws, they will find ways to ge weapons or firearms.

yes, this person used a gun he legaly bought, doesnt matter, I watched the video of the guy, he was so whacked he would have done something with or without a legaly purchased gun.

If you totally eliminate all guns in the United States, anyone that is bent on killing people will just figure out how to make explosives which can kill more people than single rounds.



So to summarize, gun control that takes away the right of law abiding citizens to protect themselves only makes it easier on people who are bent on killing or commiting other crimes to execute their desired plan.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is going around in their own little world with blinders on.

 

[VaBusa]

You're still assuming that just because the laws might allow you to carry a weapon that a vast majority will...I disagree...

I still can't envision a bunch of 18 year olds gearing up for their fun college years thinking "got my toothbrush, my laptop, cell phone, oh, don't forget my Glock..."  Sure, there will be those that would opt to carry, but you'll still have a majority going to school for learning, not anticipating that he/she might have to save the lives of fellow students while sitting in an engineering class...

You're almost making it sound like you'd like for it to be in the rules that the professors carry weapons for protection.  Where would that stop?  Only in universities?  High schools?  Elementary?  I see a group of people that signed up for TEACHING kids, not being on standby to shoot to kill if need be.  The peace of mind would be wonderful on many levels, especially given events in recent history of violence in the classroom, however I can't see THAT demographic volunteering to carry a gun to class...