Thoughts\input

[Dino]

As I stated in my profile I am a MSF RiderCoach. A question was posed on the RC forum:

*Subject:* [msfcurriculumlist] Your opinion for a military website...

I've been given the opportunity to provide input to update the Air
National Guard <http://www.rideang.org/> website.

An outside company is contracted for the update/major revision. I was
asked what I'd like to see and supposedly, all things will be considered.

If you don't already know, motorcycle fatalities is a real problem in
the military. Some elements of the DoD have experimented with sending
riders to advanced training like Lee Parks Total Control and Keith
Codes schools but there's no definitive data as to whether this
actually prevented crashes.

Many of the military decision makers are stuck on using an orange
reflective vest (or some variation thereof) as a panacea to the
problem. Some bases also unduly hassle riders (making us show our MSF
card every time we enter the base, walking around our bike for a
visual inspection while other vehicles are waved through, etc.). Many
riders simply stop riding on base.

Some folks have recommended that "bad" incidents should result in loss
of driving privileges but the military cannot revoke the civilian
license and taking away base driving "privileges" just furthers the
divide between the folks who need the most guidance (18-24 yo) and the
folks who make policy.

So, what do you think the Ride ANG website should be about? And what
info should be on there? Suggestions to get fewer GI's from killing
themselves on these "two wheeled death machines" (not my words)?

I'm hoping to provide info (via the website). I'm not gonna inject my
vision as I'd rather hear your input as professional motorcycle
educators. Private emails are welcome as are posts to the list.

My inputs are due by 5 Jan.

Ride often and minimize your risks.

Austin in Savannah, GA

 

[Dino]

Please look at and submit input to the website as well as in this thread.

My thoughts:

I don't think there is much you can do with a website that is going to convince these (18-24yo) guys that they are not unbreakable. They need mentoring, the same type of mentoring they get on the job. I have seen many squad leaders take a new kid and work with him in a very positive way to help him learn his job. This same attitude needs to carry over to kids on bikes. Older more expirenced riders need to set up rides and meetings so these kids have positive examples.

I think the military should make gear mandatory on and of base, not just the reflective vest but at a minimum the same as we require for the BRC (helmet, full finger gloves, heavy material pants, over the ankle shoe, full finger gloves, eye protection). To go a step further older military riders need to stop the younger guys and let them know when they are out of line off base.

To save these younger guys you need more than a website, you need positive role models willing to step up to the task of mentoring these guys.

Where I live I see a lot of these young guys on sport bikes many of them are not in the proper gear and drive like fools. Worse is that not many guys will step up and say they are wrong for not being in the proper gear and dress them down for riding like fools.

 

[Dino]

Sorry this might have been better under General Bike Related Topics.

 

[Lycan]

Enforce ATGATT...nuff said

 

[Mr Bogus]

Our meeting in Eureka Springs really touched on a lot of this and it sure looks like no easy answers to me..

Honestly, I think most crashes are simply too much bike, not enough rider.

How to fix that? no idea other than a graduated license program all racing, flying and other highly dangerous activities tend to do that.. Become skilled and competent in a lesser machine and then gain the skills to master the next larger/faster machine.. Instead, some guy gets a new bike at 140hp + and it is right off the deep end...

I would like to see statistics on the fatalities riding time/skills

 

[Commuta_Busa]

Is it the young riders that are the direct cause for the fatalities? Are there any outside influences involved? Regrettably I would say that before someone can figure out a cure or proactive measure you really need to know the facts. I don't know of any unbiased studies into motorcycle fatalities.

I would have to guess the most common cause may be that younger riders lack experience. I don't think that's a cure all answer though. Experience will teach a rider of his limits, the bikes limits, the unpredictability of their ridding environment, respect, control, temperament, and focus while ridding, but there are so many factors.

I think also a big factor is educating the public (cagers) to respect rider and learn to share the roads.

 

[wharthog3]

Coming from a guy that sold bikes in a military town for the last 5 years I can tell you that its a tough situation. The more rules you make for the riders, the less likely they'll be (act) safe IMO.

The issue I see is that these guys want what their buddies ride and don't educate themselves on the right bike for that INDIVIDUAL. I can't tell you the number of guys FRESH BACK FROM DEPLOYMENT that have come in to buy the latest fastest 1k motorcycle with little or no experience.

Bottom line, they never bought those machines from me, but I'm ONE salesperson of 20 at 1 dealership of 9 in 1 military city of hundreds.

Any rule or law you impose on them may happen too late, or be avoided BECAUSE there are too many rules to follow.

These guys spend every last dollar on the bike and then realize, gee I don't have money for gear or insurance, guess I can't take the bike on base because that's a No-No.

So now they're hidden, riding a bike away from the "experienced riders" that COULD teach them a lesson.

Unless you educate the riders BEFORE they ride, you miss the target audience. There are those that crash on the way home. They wouldn't even let us deliver the bike, because they can't take it on base or whatever reason they want to ride their NEW BIKE. Now they have a crashed new bike and would be in trouble because they aren't even licensed yet.

There is also a problem with the Military MSF course not FULLY supplying bikes for the course. You're essentially MAKING some riders ride before taking this course. If someone buys a new bike OF COURSE they're going to want to "take it around the block" even if that course is a few weeks off.

I'm sure I can tell you more on the subject but I'm at work, let me know if you want more suggestions/help/advice, from the sales side.

 

[mrninja9]

ok here let me help man i was responsible for a base wide motorcycle meeting once a month. THere was 2 people from every squadron that attended with the base commander.

Here is what you might want to add..

some links to where they can buy gear. maybe the company's will offer discounts. a section on local meetings safety breifs things like that. try to gather up for a group ride. a link to motorcycle safety foundation website. so they can find out more info on tyhat. let them no what is going on in worl news about military riders and tragedies.

if you need some info here is my number we can talk i might look like an idiot but when it comes down to it i am very good at this and what things need to be changed.
i have been on the recieving end of an LOR by my major of op's. when he was done serving me that. he sat me down and we talked for an hour atleast about how the squadron looked up to what i was doing cause i was one of the few peopel who drag raced from the base. i pulled in alot of trophies for my squadron

my number 3093715614

 

[99'busa]

Like Ninja9 said some links to the best deals on gear would be a great idea. I'd have some photos of crash scenes somewhere too. And the no.1 thing I'd try to stress is ATGATT. Good luck I hope you can compile some great ides for them.

 

[outtahand]

As I stated in my profile I am a MSF RiderCoach. A question was posed on the RC forum:

*Subject:* [msfcurriculumlist] Your opinion for a military website...

I've been given the opportunity to provide input to update the Air
National Guard <http://www.rideang.org/> website.

An outside company is contracted for the update/major revision. I was
asked what I'd like to see and supposedly, all things will be considered.

If you don't already know, motorcycle fatalities is a real problem in
the military. Some elements of the DoD have experimented with sending
riders to advanced training like Lee Parks Total Control and Keith
Codes schools but there's no definitive data as to whether this
actually prevented crashes.

Many of the military decision makers are stuck on using an orange
reflective vest (or some variation thereof) as a panacea to the
problem. Some bases also unduly hassle riders (making us show our MSF
card every time we enter the base, walking around our bike for a
visual inspection while other vehicles are waved through, etc.). Many
riders simply stop riding on base.

Some folks have recommended that "bad" incidents should result in loss
of driving privileges but the military cannot revoke the civilian
license and taking away base driving "privileges" just furthers the
divide between the folks who need the most guidance (18-24 yo) and the
folks who make policy.

So, what do you think the Ride ANG website should be about? And what
info should be on there? Suggestions to get fewer GI's from killing
themselves on these "two wheeled death machines" (not my words)?

I'm hoping to provide info (via the website). I'm not gonna inject my
vision as I'd rather hear your input as professional motorcycle
educators. Private emails are welcome as are posts to the list.

My inputs are due by 5 Jan.

Ride often and minimize your risks.

Austin in Savannah, GA

Are you Austin, in Savannah GA? Or are you looking for stuff so that you can answer his request for info? Just wondering...

 

[jch364]

When I was in the Marine Corps in the 80's I took all of the available riding classes in good ole southern cal but still we did have some bad accidents. Harrassment was horrible. Obviously that isnt the way to go but you cant tell those in charge anything like that of course. Reflective vests in my opinion are just retarded. Who gives a crap whether or not my faceshield is down or up or if my sunglasses are impact resistant or whatever.

I think the best you can do is to have manditory riding classes. not videos of accidents or an assembly to tell all the riders that someone is gonna die this year! Offer additional riding classes that are designed to enhance the skill of the rider. Thats about the best you can do I think.

Responsible riding is in the end up to the rider after all. All that can be done is educate....just my 2 cents

 

[mrninja9]

not to thread jack what is atgatt

 

[outtahand]

All The Gear All The Time.
To not ATTGAT is to squid.

 

[mrninja9]

All The Gear All The Time.
To not ATTGAT is to squid.

whatever you say

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

My suggestions (military or not):

1) ATGATT. Period.

2) Mandatory Education BEFORE buying/riding. At a minimum, MSF BRC, but I see no reason to not have a second more advanced course that focuses on highway speed control with coached street rides.

3) Tiered licensing. It's mandatory overseas, makes great sense and has loads of value compared to current licensing in the US.

4) MUST be licensed before BUYING!!! Put this one on dealers and sellers. You can't buy until you're licensed. I was pretty surprised when I bought my Hayabusa last month to learn that the dealer was only interested in my license for ID purposes. They were not concerned AT ALL if I had a license to ride, yet they were handing me a Hayabusa with a 30 day tag for me to ride out of the dealer. :WTF: It's NO WONDER there's such an issue with dying riders of new bikes.

There will always be riders that try to ride beyond their limits and take chances that have bad odds, etc., but the industry and the regulation of education and licensing could do a LOT more to put riders in a position of at least being educated and somewhat experienced before they ride on the street so that each rider would at LEAST have an inkling that riding "stupid" could end them.

Best of luck with your work!

 

[Dino]

Thanks very much for the inputs. I'll pass them along. Lots of great ideas.

 

[fasterr]

what's the link to your website?

 

[teamorion22]

Our meeting in Eureka Springs really touched on a lot of this and it sure looks like no easy answers to me..

Honestly, I think most crashes are simply too much bike, not enough rider.

How to fix that? no idea other than a graduated license program all racing, flying and other highly dangerous activities tend to do that.. Become skilled and competent in a lesser machine and then gain the skills to master the next larger/faster machine.. Instead, some guy gets a new bike at 140hp + and it is right off the deep end...

I would like to see statistics on the fatalities riding time/skills

+1.

the only thing i can think of is require rank prior to owning a motorcycle. e2 or whatever. and of course allthegearallthetime. of course this is almost impossible off base but i bet it would help a little

 

[si-lo]

My suggestions (military or not):

1) ATGATT. Period.

I agree and it gets suggested every year however the military loves having their "minimum" requirements, which happens to be the same requirements for MSF + a bright orange or yellow (reflective at night) vest at some installations.

2) Mandatory Education BEFORE buying/riding. At a minimum, MSF BRC, but I see no reason to not have a second more advanced course that focuses on highway speed control with coached street rides.

The problem with education before is the cost. The military finds it necessary to provide the training so in the event of an accident the mil can say that training is provided and no one can use the excuse that they couldn't afford it.

3) Tiered licensing. It's mandatory overseas, makes great sense and has loads of value compared to current licensing in the US.

The problem with tiered licensing is it is just based on CC's, and we all know that a VTX1300 is just a little different than a Busa. I wish it was implemented in a better way.

4) MUST be licensed before BUYING!!! Put this one on dealers and sellers. You can't buy until you're licensed. I was pretty surprised when I bought my Hayabusa last month to learn that the dealer was only interested in my license for ID purposes. They were not concerned AT ALL if I had a license to ride, yet they were handing me a Hayabusa with a 30 day tag for me to ride out of the dealer. :WTF: It's NO WONDER there's such an issue with dying riders of new bikes.

+1 on this one. But then again I don't have to have a driver's license to buy a car either.

There will always be riders that try to ride beyond their limits and take chances that have bad odds, etc., but the industry and the regulation of education and licensing could do a LOT more to put riders in a position of at least being educated and somewhat experienced before they ride on the street so that each rider would at LEAST have an inkling that riding "stupid" could end them.

The classes are out there and the industry does promote it. Unfortunately it's the guys on the floor selling them that have to pass on the info. But even at that I have students in my classes all the time that say they wouldn't be there if the military didn't make them take the course. Mine and Professor's first class had a guy in it with this mentality and we either counseled him out or came real close to it. It's been a while since then.

Best of luck with your work!

Unfortunately the problems with motorcycle safety in the USAF(i can only speak for since that is who I teach for) is that not everyone takes it serious. It is more about implementation than regulation.

But I still gave my input, because I'm confident one day they will listen and do what is best.