The physics of cornering...
- Thread starter Spike
- Start date
One of the instructors at my MSF course called the busa a rubberband... because it's slower than race bikes in turns, but when the turn straightens out.... boom... the busa is gone in a snap!
Keep trying the same turns at higher speeds... and you'll see what works for you. It's been proven the busa will lean very far and you can even drag a knee. But knee-dragging is done to simply get a feel for the road. You don't need to do it on the street... even though it looks cool.
But I don't want to hear how you're not a speed demon or speed freak! BS! You bought a Hayabusa... not a Katana! You got the beast because it will fly!
Keep trying the same turns at higher speeds... and you'll see what works for you. It's been proven the busa will lean very far and you can even drag a knee. But knee-dragging is done to simply get a feel for the road. You don't need to do it on the street... even though it looks cool.
But I don't want to hear how you're not a speed demon or speed freak! BS! You bought a Hayabusa... not a Katana! You got the beast because it will fly!
Try keeping your head in the same place and countersteer the bike only. If you ride familiar roads you can lean the bike further going the exact same speeds as your doing now. For example........Try to sit on the opposite side that the bike is leaning. If your going right move to the left side of the seat and vise versa. This should improve the confidence you have in the bike being able to handle the lean angle. Riding is about confidence in your equipment and yourself.
CorrodedAlien
Registered
... like I said. Let's go out and practice.
First and foremost is throttle control.
Second is being able to look as far forward as you can through a corner. Where you look is where you'll go towards!
Third is body position, and this includes how you countersteer. If you sit upright and are tight in the arms, you have very little chance of being able to effectively countersteer.
If however you lower your upper body, and do the "funky chicken" your arms will be lower in the plane parallel to the ground to enable you to actually countersteer, as less effort is required.
Get all your braking and downchanging done well before a corner.
Be smooth, don't jerk your body around too much when you effect a turn.
Read books as has been mentioned above, do some training, do lots of practice.
This bike is big, compared to say my Aprilia, and defiantely needs simple inputs to punt fast.
Pactice, Practice, & when you think you mastered it, go and do more practice.
Just because you have one of the fastest bikes on the planet, make sure you get your suspension sorted first and foremost, this will allow, in itself a better ride each time you go outr!
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.
Second is being able to look as far forward as you can through a corner. Where you look is where you'll go towards!
Third is body position, and this includes how you countersteer. If you sit upright and are tight in the arms, you have very little chance of being able to effectively countersteer.
If however you lower your upper body, and do the "funky chicken" your arms will be lower in the plane parallel to the ground to enable you to actually countersteer, as less effort is required.
Get all your braking and downchanging done well before a corner.
Be smooth, don't jerk your body around too much when you effect a turn.
Read books as has been mentioned above, do some training, do lots of practice.
This bike is big, compared to say my Aprilia, and defiantely needs simple inputs to punt fast.
Pactice, Practice, & when you think you mastered it, go and do more practice.
Just because you have one of the fastest bikes on the planet, make sure you get your suspension sorted first and foremost, this will allow, in itself a better ride each time you go outr!
Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.
All very good advice, thanks folks.
I read quite a bit last night and then decided to go out and practice quite a bit as well. Both books mentioned in here are fantastic. I recommend them highly for anyone looking to learn about the physics and practical concepts behind street and track riding.
I got several offers from California folks to go riding as well. Thanks guys but maybe when I get a little more comfy with this beast
God I love this bike.
I read quite a bit last night and then decided to go out and practice quite a bit as well. Both books mentioned in here are fantastic. I recommend them highly for anyone looking to learn about the physics and practical concepts behind street and track riding.
I got several offers from California folks to go riding as well. Thanks guys but maybe when I get a little more comfy with this beast
God I love this bike.
Yamahor; now I know how your big azz ran those twisties so fast. Next time we ride I'll expect you to bring the library for me to borrow.
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I've been meaning to come up with a quick "how to" for cornering for a while. I thought some of you might find it usefull. these are just the basics to kind of get you going in the right direction and to have something to think about when you're out riding. there are plenty of books, videos, and classes that go a lot more in depth than this is you want to learn more. i'll try to add/modify this as it get time.
How do you make a motorcycle turn?
3 basic things:
-countersteering
-body positioning
-throttle control
Countersteering:
-this is what makes the bike want to change directions. its very simple. if you want to turn left, then point the front tire to the right, and vice versa. its a very small movement. the more you turn the wheel, the more the bike will lean over. eventually you'll run out of room and start scraping hard parts like exhaust, pegs, etc. That's just an accident waiting to happen and will lift up the back wheel and make you crash. If you are scraping anything besides your knee, you seriously need to work on better body positioning to cut down on lean angle.
Body positioning:
-if you watch the pros, they don't sit on the bike, they hang off the side, leaning forward, with their head down. the idea behind that is to move weight down and to the inside of the bike, which lowers your center of gravity. this allows you to use less lean angle for a given speed. thats why if you go to the track you'll see people that are leaned all the way over on the edge of the tire getting passed like they're standing still by people that are barely leaning the bike at all. leaning the bike right on the edge has a lot of drawbacks, so anything you can do to cut that down is a good thing, especially on the street. it isn't necessary to be that extreme, but 1/2 a butt cheek can make a huge difference on the weight distribution on a 400lb motorcycle. if feels kinda weird at first, but once you get used to it you'll wonder how in the world you ever rode sitting straight up on the bike.
-your feet. you want to keep the balls of your feet on the pegs. as you lean the bike over, the pegs get very close to the ground, and if you have your size 12 foot hanging down there, it can get snagged under the bike and take you down. ankle injuries are never a pretty site.
-relax the hands/arms. you want to keep weight off your hands, and try to weigh the outside peg. propping your outside knee and elbow against the gas tank helps this a lot, and helps support your upper body instead of your hands. you also want to keep your arms bent, and you shouldn't have to fight the handlebars.
-use your head. a lot of people scoot their butt of the seat, but forget to move their upper body. you want to keep your spine parallel to the bike, just offset a little to the side.
Throttle control.
-you have to stay on the gas to hold a bike in a lean. this is called "maintenance throttle". centrifugal force pushes the rider against the bike, much like when you swerve in a car you'll be pushed side to side in your seat. so if you ease off the gas in a turn, the bike will start to slow down, lean more, and start to fall towards the ground since you have less force to hold it up. if you hit the gas, it will do the opposite-try to straighten up, and start to drift wide. as you adjust your throttle position, you have to change your lean angle to compensate. again, these are very small movements, but you need to know they are happening so you can adjust to changes. i'd get used to downshifting enough before the turn so that you keep the rpm in the midrange so you can modulate the throttle and use engine braking to adjust the speed of the bike instead of using the brakes in the turn.
Reasons to cut down on lean angle:
-your tires will slide easier the more you lean the bike. whether its because of too much throttle, a slick road, or too much brakes, its all the same. you have to be much smoother, and less aggressive the farther you lean the bike over.
-ground clearance. anything you can do to keep the exhaust, pegs, shifter/brake pedal off the ground is a good thing. it only takes a little scrap to unload the tire and make you crash.
-Target fixation. where you look is where you go. i'm not sure how exactly it works, but it does. you want to look as far through the turn as you can, and use your peripheral vision to see what is right in front and to the side of you. if you focus on the curb, an oncoming car, debris in the road, the person crashing in front of you, etc., thats right where you're gonna go. its a tough thing to avoid in panic situations, but its very important that you stay focused on where you want to go at all times.
Brakes.
-"squeeze" the brakes, don't grab them or just let off either. picture a bell curve, progressively ease up to 100%, then ease back off to 0. i use 2 fingers on the brake, some use 1, some use all 4. personal preference, do whatever you feel more comfortable with. as with the throttle, the more you lean the bike over, the easier the wheel will lock up and slide. at the track you can get away with a lot more because its a prepped surface, but on the street you need to be cautious and aware of the road conditions, and the available traction. because it can vary quite a bit from one road to another, and even turn to turn, i'd avoid using the brakes in the turn unless its a last resort, and even then be very careful. i don't use the rear brake. why? if you screw up, it locks the back wheel which causes a highside that throws you up in the air in a very awkward and highly dangerous crash. losing the front tire is a guaranteed lowside and normally the easiest way to crash since you only fall about about foot to the ground and immediately start to slide and slow down. just my opinion here, but i don't feel the added risk is worth the extra 5% of braking power i might get if i actually use it correctly.
Be Smoooooooth.
-you never want to "hit" the throttle, slam it shut, or jam on the brakes. everything needs to be smooth or it will upset the bike and you on top of it. all the suspension does is control movements as the bike goes down the road. if you're slamming on the brakes and bottoming the forks, or hitting the gas hard and loading the rear it affects how the bike will handle. that doesn't mean that a panic stop needs to be slow. its still a very quick movement, but its a smooth, fluid, progressive one.
Trusting your tires.
-this is probably one of the hardest things to get used to. just take things slow and as you get used to having the bike leaned over you'll learn to feel when the tires are starting to let go.
I've been meaning to come up with a quick "how to" for cornering for a while. I thought some of you might find it usefull. these are just the basics to kind of get you going in the right direction and to have something to think about when you're out riding. there are plenty of books, videos, and classes that go a lot more in depth than this is you want to learn more. i'll try to add/modify this as it get time.
How do you make a motorcycle turn?
3 basic things:
-countersteering
-body positioning
-throttle control
Countersteering:
-this is what makes the bike want to change directions. its very simple. if you want to turn left, then point the front tire to the right, and vice versa. its a very small movement. the more you turn the wheel, the more the bike will lean over. eventually you'll run out of room and start scraping hard parts like exhaust, pegs, etc. That's just an accident waiting to happen and will lift up the back wheel and make you crash. If you are scraping anything besides your knee, you seriously need to work on better body positioning to cut down on lean angle.
Body positioning:
-if you watch the pros, they don't sit on the bike, they hang off the side, leaning forward, with their head down. the idea behind that is to move weight down and to the inside of the bike, which lowers your center of gravity. this allows you to use less lean angle for a given speed. thats why if you go to the track you'll see people that are leaned all the way over on the edge of the tire getting passed like they're standing still by people that are barely leaning the bike at all. leaning the bike right on the edge has a lot of drawbacks, so anything you can do to cut that down is a good thing, especially on the street. it isn't necessary to be that extreme, but 1/2 a butt cheek can make a huge difference on the weight distribution on a 400lb motorcycle. if feels kinda weird at first, but once you get used to it you'll wonder how in the world you ever rode sitting straight up on the bike.
-your feet. you want to keep the balls of your feet on the pegs. as you lean the bike over, the pegs get very close to the ground, and if you have your size 12 foot hanging down there, it can get snagged under the bike and take you down. ankle injuries are never a pretty site.
-relax the hands/arms. you want to keep weight off your hands, and try to weigh the outside peg. propping your outside knee and elbow against the gas tank helps this a lot, and helps support your upper body instead of your hands. you also want to keep your arms bent, and you shouldn't have to fight the handlebars.
-use your head. a lot of people scoot their butt of the seat, but forget to move their upper body. you want to keep your spine parallel to the bike, just offset a little to the side.
Throttle control.
-you have to stay on the gas to hold a bike in a lean. this is called "maintenance throttle". centrifugal force pushes the rider against the bike, much like when you swerve in a car you'll be pushed side to side in your seat. so if you ease off the gas in a turn, the bike will start to slow down, lean more, and start to fall towards the ground since you have less force to hold it up. if you hit the gas, it will do the opposite-try to straighten up, and start to drift wide. as you adjust your throttle position, you have to change your lean angle to compensate. again, these are very small movements, but you need to know they are happening so you can adjust to changes. i'd get used to downshifting enough before the turn so that you keep the rpm in the midrange so you can modulate the throttle and use engine braking to adjust the speed of the bike instead of using the brakes in the turn.
Reasons to cut down on lean angle:
-your tires will slide easier the more you lean the bike. whether its because of too much throttle, a slick road, or too much brakes, its all the same. you have to be much smoother, and less aggressive the farther you lean the bike over.
-ground clearance. anything you can do to keep the exhaust, pegs, shifter/brake pedal off the ground is a good thing. it only takes a little scrap to unload the tire and make you crash.
-Target fixation. where you look is where you go. i'm not sure how exactly it works, but it does. you want to look as far through the turn as you can, and use your peripheral vision to see what is right in front and to the side of you. if you focus on the curb, an oncoming car, debris in the road, the person crashing in front of you, etc., thats right where you're gonna go. its a tough thing to avoid in panic situations, but its very important that you stay focused on where you want to go at all times.
Brakes.
-"squeeze" the brakes, don't grab them or just let off either. picture a bell curve, progressively ease up to 100%, then ease back off to 0. i use 2 fingers on the brake, some use 1, some use all 4. personal preference, do whatever you feel more comfortable with. as with the throttle, the more you lean the bike over, the easier the wheel will lock up and slide. at the track you can get away with a lot more because its a prepped surface, but on the street you need to be cautious and aware of the road conditions, and the available traction. because it can vary quite a bit from one road to another, and even turn to turn, i'd avoid using the brakes in the turn unless its a last resort, and even then be very careful. i don't use the rear brake. why? if you screw up, it locks the back wheel which causes a highside that throws you up in the air in a very awkward and highly dangerous crash. losing the front tire is a guaranteed lowside and normally the easiest way to crash since you only fall about about foot to the ground and immediately start to slide and slow down. just my opinion here, but i don't feel the added risk is worth the extra 5% of braking power i might get if i actually use it correctly.
Be Smoooooooth.
-you never want to "hit" the throttle, slam it shut, or jam on the brakes. everything needs to be smooth or it will upset the bike and you on top of it. all the suspension does is control movements as the bike goes down the road. if you're slamming on the brakes and bottoming the forks, or hitting the gas hard and loading the rear it affects how the bike will handle. that doesn't mean that a panic stop needs to be slow. its still a very quick movement, but its a smooth, fluid, progressive one.
Trusting your tires.
-this is probably one of the hardest things to get used to. just take things slow and as you get used to having the bike leaned over you'll learn to feel when the tires are starting to let go.
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