Kiwi Rider
Registered
great to hear you are improving!
looking forward to more technical info from you Rob, hows Lucy?
The Lucy turbo build, and testing
- Thread starter Boosted Cycle Perf
- Start date
looking forward to more technical info from you Rob, hows Lucy?
michael parris heuberger
Registered
Hi. I am very glad you are better.
Wonderful news!
Thanks everyone. I’m not home yet. I’ll be out of commission a few more weeks.
With that said, I can’t wait. I have everything to put Lucy together. Two stage 2 ultras to build, blower bking, 1000hp build, two maxxx Ecus to wire after I put the details on two bike that are about ready to go.
Kiwi Rider
Registered
Man you keep yourself busy . . . do you have help or work alone?
Are you still working on the locomotives?
i work alone most the time. Good help is hard to find. One of my helpers just costed me an engine on a customers Bike. He didn’t tighten down the oil pickup. I have to eat that one.
Currently still employed by the railroad. But I’ve decided to leave at the end of the year.
Kiwi Rider
Registered
Apart from the financial loss caused by your helper re that engine, the aggravating factor is the damage to your reputation, sorry to hear that, we all know you do excellent work.
Good to hear you are going to focus on your business now and leave the railroad, it can not be good for your health burning the candle at both ends. It will benefit your bike tuning/building business, I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know lol.
Keep on keeping on buddy, look forward to more of your posts here!
Hope you got your 20 in.....vested and reap the benefits down the road!!
A little update for you guys. I fought Lucy on the dyno for several hours yesterday.
I took the liberty of figuring out how to modify LS3 style Bosch 210lb injectors to fit the top of the rail. When it made the 435hp prior with with 65lb injectors, and the duty cycle was up around 80% on VP X98 fuel.
I spent most the morning trying to be able to make a full pull on wastegate without it breaking up from being too rich. It got to the point where I couldn’t pull anymore fuel out of the 3-5psi range on the boost fuel map.
I ended up having to play with the injector balance table to bring the secondaries in higher in the rpm range, and then also pull fuel out of the TPS map. Even after all that the afr’s were still a bit on the fat side and not as smooth as I would like but it worked. the tuning from 7psi on up was buttery smooth.
While working my way up I noticed a few drops of oil on the ground. Didn’t think much of it as I knew I need to replace the starter cover and stator gaskets.
It wasn’t until after I a made a few pulls at right at 400hp I noticed a slight tick in the top of the engine. When I got off the bike to listen closer I saw a few drips of oil on the compressor cover of the turbo. Then I noticed a more oil on the front of the engine. That’s when I saw the bolt that holds the balance shaft in was backed out and the balance shift itself was sticking out far enough you could see most of the oring. The only reason the bolt and shaft didn’t come out all the is because the bolt stopped when it touched the rubber isolator that goes around the the big main oil line off the front of the engine.
That’s when I payed attention to the oil pressure in the data log from the last run. At 10,700rpm it only had 38psi of oil pressure. Not good. I looked back a few runs prior and the oil pressure was inconsistent run to run.
For those that don’t know, the balance shaft plugs a major oil passage right of the oil pump essentially. The head is the last place to get oil. So maybe the tick will go away when I address the balance shaft. I check the spark plugs quickly, and they look perfect. So I’m pretty sure it’s valve train noise, not melty piston noise.
Lastly, the one screen shows the intake air temp at 196 degrees. I’m unsure how I want to press forward from here. When it made the 435hp pull it was 60 degree and 150ft DA vs the 1600ft and 90 degrees I had yesterday. That will swing HP quite a bit. While it did make 405 on 15psi, a bit on the fat side, it made 435 on 14psi before. I don’t see it picking up 30hp from leaning it out a bit.
Its interesting to me because on wastegate it made 270hp the same as it did before. But at 14-15psi it’s 30hp off. It does have Grand Canyon ring gaps now, but I don’t think that’s it. If I don’t lower the compression (not gonna happen) add meth, or an intercooler I have a feeling that were right on the point of diminishing gains. I have to keep timing out of it because of the compression, and keep it on the fat side to counter intake temps if I want to be able to run it down the track. At 400hp or less I think it would be fine. But I’m determined to get it over 500 for you guys. If I sprayed meth, the denser air would make a lot of power more easily. I have at least another 10psi I could throw at it, and probably more.
What do you guys think? Sorry for the rant.
I took the liberty of figuring out how to modify LS3 style Bosch 210lb injectors to fit the top of the rail. When it made the 435hp prior with with 65lb injectors, and the duty cycle was up around 80% on VP X98 fuel.
I spent most the morning trying to be able to make a full pull on wastegate without it breaking up from being too rich. It got to the point where I couldn’t pull anymore fuel out of the 3-5psi range on the boost fuel map.
I ended up having to play with the injector balance table to bring the secondaries in higher in the rpm range, and then also pull fuel out of the TPS map. Even after all that the afr’s were still a bit on the fat side and not as smooth as I would like but it worked. the tuning from 7psi on up was buttery smooth.
While working my way up I noticed a few drops of oil on the ground. Didn’t think much of it as I knew I need to replace the starter cover and stator gaskets.
It wasn’t until after I a made a few pulls at right at 400hp I noticed a slight tick in the top of the engine. When I got off the bike to listen closer I saw a few drips of oil on the compressor cover of the turbo. Then I noticed a more oil on the front of the engine. That’s when I saw the bolt that holds the balance shaft in was backed out and the balance shift itself was sticking out far enough you could see most of the oring. The only reason the bolt and shaft didn’t come out all the is because the bolt stopped when it touched the rubber isolator that goes around the the big main oil line off the front of the engine.
That’s when I payed attention to the oil pressure in the data log from the last run. At 10,700rpm it only had 38psi of oil pressure. Not good. I looked back a few runs prior and the oil pressure was inconsistent run to run.
For those that don’t know, the balance shaft plugs a major oil passage right of the oil pump essentially. The head is the last place to get oil. So maybe the tick will go away when I address the balance shaft. I check the spark plugs quickly, and they look perfect. So I’m pretty sure it’s valve train noise, not melty piston noise.
Lastly, the one screen shows the intake air temp at 196 degrees. I’m unsure how I want to press forward from here. When it made the 435hp pull it was 60 degree and 150ft DA vs the 1600ft and 90 degrees I had yesterday. That will swing HP quite a bit. While it did make 405 on 15psi, a bit on the fat side, it made 435 on 14psi before. I don’t see it picking up 30hp from leaning it out a bit.
Its interesting to me because on wastegate it made 270hp the same as it did before. But at 14-15psi it’s 30hp off. It does have Grand Canyon ring gaps now, but I don’t think that’s it. If I don’t lower the compression (not gonna happen) add meth, or an intercooler I have a feeling that were right on the point of diminishing gains. I have to keep timing out of it because of the compression, and keep it on the fat side to counter intake temps if I want to be able to run it down the track. At 400hp or less I think it would be fine. But I’m determined to get it over 500 for you guys. If I sprayed meth, the denser air would make a lot of power more easily. I have at least another 10psi I could throw at it, and probably more.
What do you guys think? Sorry for the rant.
Hayabusa Wannabe
Registered
Thanks for posting this. It is not a rant but a good education into techniques that are so often not published but held as super-secret. I appreciate it.
I am somewhat of a naturalist. In this case I appreciate the simpler engine setups. I like the idea of pushing the limit and letting the system tell you what the final number is. But then I am not like many here who have vested interests in racing, who may feel the opposite, like wanting to throw the kitchen sink at it until it hits the predetermined power number.
busakiller
Registered
That’s some intake temp. Wow. Hot hot. I see your logging back pressure that’s pretty cool. Meth would be easy for now. Would be cool to see yea build a intercooler for the bike but I know that will take some time to do. Some interesting data on that log. Do you think the ring gap, weak oil pressure, hotter air and rich afr killed the power from before?
It’s pretty cool to see how changes in the tune effect back pressure.
I’ve been playing around with some air to water designs in cad. It will be awhile before I build one.
After thinking about it, I don’t suspect the big ring gap has anything to do with the power. It made right about the same power on gate as it did before. Only thing the oil pressure would effect is the timing chain tensioner. But I few like that’s an extreme circumstance.
On this fuel, afr doesn’t swing HP much unless it’s like a full point in either direction. I think what I’m up against is losing air density from intake temps, and perhaps running out of octane. I wish I would of remembered to put the EGT bungs in when I had the engine out. That would be some good data. There’s a point to where you can pull too much timing out and do more harm then good. When you pull timing combustion events happen later so there more mixture still burning when the exhaust valves open. This can burn the exhaust valves. Remember I still have stock valves in it too. Another way you can tell you have too much pulled is the boost will be higher because you have more heat and pressure going in to the turbo. But that’s hard to see when using a good boost controller like an ams. It will make adjustments to keep the boost the same. If you’re adjusting boost via open loop duty cycle strategy, bleed style controller, or just using springs is when you typically would see an increase in boost.
Typically on a low compression engine, pump fuel and rcc a2w you see 340-350hp on 15psi. I’m at 405hp @15psi. So I’m still ahead of the curve, but it puts a little perspective on things with my current combo vs a low compression, intercooled pump fuel combo.
If you noticed in the screenshot I’m not even using 40% of my injectors yet. I do have straight M1 I don’t have enough fuel pump for that. The next best bet is VP C16. That’s specifically made for non intercooled high boost stuff. That was the go to fuel back in the day for the pro street class bikes making 5-600hp non intercooled. That stuff just doesn’t care about intake temps.
But first things first, fix the oil pressure and hopefully I didn’t harm any bearings. Then I’ll figure out everything else.
sorry for another rant lol.
busakiller
Registered
I did notice the duty cycle. Lots of room left for more power.....
One of my buddies had his bike tuned at win racing and made 450 whp non intercooled on c16. I thought that was crazy but it’s a race bike and never sees street. I didn’t think that was possible to do or safe.
keep up the good work. I like seeing the data and the trial and error. Not many people are trying new things.
Yep, if you’re non intercooled And making good power c16 is the stuff to use.
Thanks! It’s cool to actually have data for things I’ve been repeating for years. Turns out, a lot of it wasn’t the most accurate.
I brought my compression tester home and took a few min to look over Lucy. Here’s the plugs. As always with ethanol fuel it’s hard to really tell much from them. But the main thing is there’s no speckling on them. The electrodes are darker around the corners from me running my dirty fingers across them feeling for any metal transfer.
I couldn’t help but laugh at the results of the compression test. 160psi across all four holes. Which, if my memory serves me right, that’s about the same readings I got when I checked the compression before the turbo was put on.
Spec in the manual is 190-230psi. Yes my readings are low, but what really matters is they’re the same all the way across.
But with that said, I’m really questioning the accuracy of my tester. 160psi was believable given the obvious signs of neglect when I bought the bike. But when it was NA, the power was on par with any other gen 2 with a slip on exhaust.
Remember I’m still using the same stock valves as before. Unless all the valves are bent the exact same amount, I don’t see any other reason the readings could be that low even with the big ring gaps. So the tester is definitely suspect.
I sprayed brake cleaner all over to clean the oil off the oil pan. I grabbed the oil filter just to check it and with ease put a little over a full turn on it. It was for sure leaking a little from the filter. Weird thing is I found the filter loose a few weeks back. I’m wondering if the oil filter stud is backing out? Or maybe some sort of defect in the filter? I’ll inspect the filter stud when I change the oil.
Once I put the plugs back in I started it and didn’t hear that slight tick until it idled at operating temp for a few min. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that once I address the balance shaft issue, and put fresh oil and filter on it that the sound will go away. It seems very likely a result of oil pressure. The oil is very thin and filled with ethanol too which doesn’t help.
I couldn’t help but laugh at the results of the compression test. 160psi across all four holes. Which, if my memory serves me right, that’s about the same readings I got when I checked the compression before the turbo was put on.
Spec in the manual is 190-230psi. Yes my readings are low, but what really matters is they’re the same all the way across.
But with that said, I’m really questioning the accuracy of my tester. 160psi was believable given the obvious signs of neglect when I bought the bike. But when it was NA, the power was on par with any other gen 2 with a slip on exhaust.
Remember I’m still using the same stock valves as before. Unless all the valves are bent the exact same amount, I don’t see any other reason the readings could be that low even with the big ring gaps. So the tester is definitely suspect.
I sprayed brake cleaner all over to clean the oil off the oil pan. I grabbed the oil filter just to check it and with ease put a little over a full turn on it. It was for sure leaking a little from the filter. Weird thing is I found the filter loose a few weeks back. I’m wondering if the oil filter stud is backing out? Or maybe some sort of defect in the filter? I’ll inspect the filter stud when I change the oil.
Once I put the plugs back in I started it and didn’t hear that slight tick until it idled at operating temp for a few min. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that once I address the balance shaft issue, and put fresh oil and filter on it that the sound will go away. It seems very likely a result of oil pressure. The oil is very thin and filled with ethanol too which doesn’t help.
Kiwi Rider
Registered
@Boosted Cycle Perf
Rob, my old ‘99 Busa with 80,000 miles on the untouched motor has 210psi on all 4 cyls.... you might wanna try a different comp. tester lol.
Why are you running thin oil and ethanol fuel? (I’m a Kiwi, we don’t have ethanol fuel here lol, excuse my ignorance)
Why are the porcelain insulators so clean on the plugs... is that because of the ethanol?
Rob, my old ‘99 Busa with 80,000 miles on the untouched motor has 210psi on all 4 cyls.... you might wanna try a different comp. tester lol.
Why are you running thin oil and ethanol fuel? (I’m a Kiwi, we don’t have ethanol fuel here lol, excuse my ignorance)
Why are the porcelain insulators so clean on the plugs... is that because of the ethanol?
I’m not running thin oil. It’s was 15W50 before the ethanol got in it.
And yes. Ethanol burns extremely clean. That’s why I said it’s hard to tell anything from trying to read plugs. If you’re lucky, sometimes you can see the timing mark on the ground strap.
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