Rain Braking

[fallenarch]

In my recent long, cold rain rides I realized something about wet braking. When it's wet you don't have the initial bite you get in dry braking. This makes it feel like there is no traction. In fact there is traction and you have to squeeze past that initial "oh sh**t I'm sliding!" feeling and the brakes firm up again as far as slowing you down. Of course using the rear brake is a no no in the wet, as it is generally in the dry.

Is that what I'm feeling? Any of you braking experts have any light to shed on this topic?

 

[RedBusarider]

What I think you are feeling is the front tire is sliding some because the weight of the bike has not transferred to the front at first.
Then when the weight is thrown forward the tire is turning again and then the braking is more effective.

The first thing is that when I have to ride in rain or wet conditions I try to slow down way before a stop sign or red light.

I believe that if you have to hit the brakes hard that you should pull the front brake lever in about half way for a second.
This will let the front forks compress transferring the weight forward, then pull the brake lever hard. Since the weight is
now on the front tire it will slow you down quicker.

This is something that I try to practice to make it an automatic action. Otherwise in an emergency I would just pull it in all the way.
However, I believe that allowing the weight to transfer and then applying hard braking force will stop me faster.

If you have a big parking lot, or a deserted road practice it often so it becomes automatic.

That's my 2 cents worth :2cents:

 

[SKnight]

What I believe you're feeling is the initial scraping the water off the rotors. When I have time to anticipate the stop I'll reach up early and drag the brakes some to squeegee off the water, you can hear the difference between soaked and starting to dry out.

And the rear brake is no more of a nono than it ever is. Just like the front, in wet conditions you have less available traction than before. Modulate the brake pressure to match conditions, front, rear, dry concrete or wet asphalt makes no difference. Effectively using both will stop you faster.

Practice regularly. Practice in different conditions. Practice using both brakes effectively. Practice if nothing else cause it will save your life one day.

 

[kairles]

Why are people scared to use the rear brake? I use my rear brake more in the wet than I do in the dry. If it locks up you may get a little wiggle, then you come off the brake and re-apply.

 

[mr8ball]

I was out in the rain most of the day today. Every time I went to stop I used my back break first. Never had an issue I just applied it lightly to slow and then used both to stop. I have always done it this way mainly because that is how I learned.

 

[cheferman65]

Why are people scared to use the rear brake? I use my rear brake more in the wet than I do in the dry. If it locks up you may get a little wiggle, then you come off the brake and re-apply.

Because of the old wives tales being told but more so it is a technique that is hardly ever practiced.
If your not practicing braking at the speeds you normally ride and emergency braking techniques, shame on you. The last place I want a lesson is in a situation where my life depends on it.

 

[b-dub_sr]

Please correct if i am doing something wrong cuz my life is more precious than my pride or ego. When in wet or abnormal weather and normal cruising speeds and stops, i use the brake only after reaching lower speeds ( not because i have to but because why introduce a chance of sliding when you dont have to) meaning when i am just cruising along at 50 - 80 coming to a light/stop i will gear down until at low speeds, if applicable. These bikes wind down pretty fast with closed throttle.

In an emergency situation, which i practice as often as possible at speeds up to 70-80, i use 80/20 to front brake to back brake ratio.... Works good rear doesnt lock up and stops quickly.

I also lock up the rear often just to get use to getting out of it???

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Forum Runner

 

[Rainbow7]

Of course using the rear brake is a no no in the wet, as it is generally in the dry.

 

[RussellJ]

In my recent long, cold rain rides I realized something about wet braking. When it's wet you don't have the initial bite you get in dry braking. This makes it feel like there is no traction. In fact there is traction and you have to squeeze past that initial "oh sh**t I'm sliding!" feeling and the brakes firm up again as far as slowing you down. Of course using the rear brake is a no no in the wet, as it is generally in the dry.

Is that what I'm feeling? Any of you braking experts have any light to shed on this topic?

It's not that it is a no-no. It is that most have a tendency to stand on the rear brake in an emergency situation because they do not have good braking habits or use the rear brake improperly when cornering, leading to a low side. I watched 4 people crash three weeks ago because one guy low-sided in front of them using the rear brake in a corner... I will tell people to never use the rear brake because #1 keeps them out of the habit of locking the rear because they do not know how to use it right. #2 once they have completely weaned themselves off of using the rear, they can then learn how to use the rear properly because their mind wont depend on slamming the rear in an emergency situation.

And as for rain braking, I have never given a though to my brakes, just my tires. The only difference in braking in wet conditions is knowing your tires abilities and limits. Brakes are of no concern. Tuf should be in on this eventually.

Best advice is to go to a short course taught by the California Superbike School or an equivalent. They will teach you tons of things you need to know about the art of cornering and braking. Learn your bike, learn your brakes for all situations. The rear brake doesn't help you when you are braking so hard the rear tire is in the air...

 

[Rainbow7]

^^ Well said, Russell.

CrazyArch, if using the rear brake is as perilous as you seem to think, why do Honda use a linked braking system on many of their bikes?

 

[fallenarch]

^^ Well said, Russell.

CrazyArch, if using the rear brake is as perilous as you seem to think, why do Honda use a linked braking system on many of their bikes?

Because the Honda system monitors what's happening at the wheels far more accurately than most casual riders can. One of the real advantages of ABS is that it can use the additional braking power of the rear brake effectively without causing a loss of control of the bike. Bottom line is that the rear brake is a tool that requires a lot of skill to use and it can be disasterous if not done correctly. In controlled conditions (like a track where you know where you are going to stop) yes the rear brake works well but when someone turns in front of you and you are looking at the wonderful scenery passing by until the last minute that's not a good time to grab a handful (foot full?) of rear brake.

There are 2 things I have read that I have come to believe:

1. The rear brake is more for controlling the bike's attitude than for actually stopping it.
2. Most street braking is front brake dependant and it requires expert skill to use the rear brake effectively anyway in a panic situation. Further, if you are braking at maximum on the front brakes the back is probably almost useless anyway at that point.

Just my opinion but I'm pretty sure this is good advice as I do practice stops and I have a few scratches to prove it.

 

[880jedi]

The fact that the front brakes need a few revolutions to get rid of the wet surface is a good thing. If it works as a rheostat instead of an "All In", you'll be thankful. Riding in the rain should adjust many things, including how and when you brake.

 

[RedBusarider]

I think if you do some more reading or do a test yourself you will find that in most cases using both front and rear brakes will stop you shorter then just using the front brake.

Another thing you could do is set the rear brake up so that it can't lock the back wheel up. I have mine set so that it would take a lot of travel to lock it up.

I believe that 90% of the braking should be done on the front, however using 10% rear brake will still help you stop shorter if needed.

Isn't that the whole idea? To stop in as short of a distance as possible in an emergency.

 

[Tufbusa]

The rear brake is your friend in the wet or any other place where traction is limited.

The rear brake can be evil on dry pavement where the front brake has lots of traction.

Braking is a learned skill. It's the rare street rider that has a good grasp on braking.

 

[Rainbow7]

@CrazyArch - No, I said "linked braking system"; I did not say "ABS". They are completely different things.

 

[bigjack7679]

Why are people scared to use the rear brake? I use my rear brake more in the wet than I do in the dry. If it locks up you may get a little wiggle, then you come off the brake and re-apply.

Exactly, as long as you keep the front tire str8. Its all good

 

[fallenarch]

@CrazyArch - No, I said "linked braking system"; I did not say "ABS". They are completely different things.

Whether ABS or thier older system they still pre-set the proportioning of the brakes - difficult to do in an emergency unless you are very skillful.

[h=1]Linked Braking System on the Bird[/h]

If there is one thing that the media always have a pop at about the Bird when they take one out on a test for their publication is the Linked Brakes, yet many many Bird owners love them and wouldn't be without them. On this page we hope to tell you more about them, so you understand the concept better.....and if you really do not like them - how to get them Unlinked

DCBS (Dual Combined Braking System) is purely based on hydraulics. It is split into three independent systems, so if one fails, the other will continue to function.

THE COMPONENTS The key component is a mechanical link, which uses a reaction movement on the left-hand front brake caliper to activate the secondary master cylinder, mounted on the left fork leg.

CALIPERS The two front and single rear calipers each have three pistons. The two outer pistons of each caliper are operated by one hydraulic system, while the middle pistons are operated by another. .

SECONDARY MASTER-CYLINDER When the lever is applied, the secondary master cylinder is activated by the reaction movement of the left front caliper and the rear caliper’s two outer pistons come on. As pressure to the lever is increased, the secondary master cylinder transmits increased pressure to the rear.

PROPORTIONAL CONTROL VALVE This regulates the amount of pressure within the secondary system that is applied to the rear caliper. The amount of regulation is dependant entirely upon the braking force applied by the rider, coming into play progressively from even distribution on light braking to front-end bias under heavy braking.

DELAY VALVE This delays the pressure to the front calipers’ middle pistons when the pedal is applied, thus minimising fork dive. Positioned between the rear brake’s master cylinder and the centre pistons of the front brake calipers, the delay valve engages the left-hand caliper first. As pressure to the pedal is increased, the valve introduces pressure to the right caliper until both calipers bite with equal force.

USING THE BRAKE LEVER When the brake lever is applied, the two outer pistons of the front calipers are activated. As the calipers bite, the left caliper, which is mounted on a swinging bracket, is allowed to move. This activates the mechanical link to compress the secondary master cylinder. The secondary hydraulic system, regulated by the Proportional Control Valve, applies the rear caliper.

USING THE PEDAL The pedal operates the middle pistons of all three calipers on the Blackbird. When the pedal is depressed, the left front caliper moves and activates the secondary system, which is regulated by the Proportional Control Valve that assists braking at the rear. When using both the pedal and the lever, all pistons are applied on all calipers, with the Proportional Control Valve providing the necessary distribution of braking force. ​

USING THE DCBS LINKED BRAKES…Just think of linked brakes as a conventional system, as the DCBS is biased towards the front. If you want to brake reasonably hard, or apply the brakes when entering a bend, just use the lever. This will ensure maximum braking to the front and minimal braking to the rear. If you’re on greasy roads and want to minimise braking to the front, only use the pedal. If you need to haul your ‘mother-ship’ up in an emergency, or wish to brake extremely hard, use both the lever and the pedal for maximum stopping power.

DELINKING DCBS And after all that if you really don't like the linked braking system, the you can de-link them if you want. Jaws motorcycles currently do a delink kit for approx. £100 - (price current August 2007)

 

[SKnight]

Because the Honda system monitors what's happening at the wheels far more accurately than most casual riders can. One of the real advantages of ABS is that it can use the additional braking power of the rear brake effectively without causing a loss of control of the bike. Bottom line is that the rear brake is a tool that requires a lot of skill to use and it can be disasterous if not done correctly. In controlled conditions (like a track where you know where you are going to stop) yes the rear brake works well but when someone turns in front of you and you are looking at the wonderful scenery passing by until the last minute that's not a good time to grab a handful (foot full?) of rear brake.

There are 2 things I have read that I have come to believe:

1. The rear brake is more for controlling the bike's attitude than for actually stopping it.
2. Most street braking is front brake dependant and it requires expert skill to use the rear brake effectively anyway in a panic situation. Further, if you are braking at maximum on the front brakes the back is probably almost useless anyway at that point.

Just my opinion but I'm pretty sure this is good advice as I do practice stops and I have a few scratches to prove it.

Those two lines of thought are your primary problem. Never, ever, ever, grab a hand or foot full of anything. You know why we say practice? So that when instinct takes over you perform like you practice. It's called muscle memory, you automatically do what you need to do, on the brakes faster and harder than normal, but smoothly and methodically. Even ABS or a linked system will put scratches on your helmet if grab a handful. Don't think grab, stop saying it. From now on be in control, train your instincts how to react.

The second line of thought is don't let yourself panic. That's as bad as grabbing a handful of brakes. You panic you start making irrational decisions. Be alert, be aware, don't let yourself panic. Think of it as emergency braking, not panic. You change the way you think you'll be cooler when the time comes.

And if the rear tire is on the ground it can help you stop. If the rear tire is in the air you've lost the vast majority of your directional control. Two irrefutable facts.

Learning to be in total control, even when it seems to be the last thing you have, is what separates the great riders from the good ones. Beyond raw talent what makes the Rossis or Haydens of the world so good? They practice constantly and they are in total control when 99.99% of us would have pulled the parachute and gone home.

 

[fallenarch]

Those two lines of thought are your primary problem. Never, ever, ever, grab a hand or foot full of anything. You know why we say practice? So that when instinct takes over you perform like you practice. It's called muscle memory, you automatically do what you need to do, on the brakes faster and harder than normal, but smoothly and methodically. Even ABS or a linked system will put scratches on your helmet if grab a handful. Don't think grab, stop saying it. From now on be in control, train your instincts how to react.

The second line of thought is don't let yourself panic. That's as bad as grabbing a handful of brakes. You panic you start making irrational decisions. Be alert, be aware, don't let yourself panic. Think of it as emergency braking, not panic. You change the way you think you'll be cooler when the time comes.

And if the rear tire is on the ground it can help you stop. If the rear tire is in the air you've lost the vast majority of your directional control. Two irrefutable facts.

Learning to be in total control, even when it seems to be the last thing you have, is what separates the great riders from the good ones. Beyond raw talent what makes the Rossis or Haydens of the world so good? They practice constantly and they are in total control when 99.99% of us would have pulled the parachute and gone home.

They get paid to ride and to practice, we ride when we're not working.

 

[mracer29]

You know why we say practice? So that when instinct takes over you perform like you practice. It's called muscle memory, you automatically do what you need to do, on the brakes faster and harder than normal, but smoothly and methodically........



Learning to be in total control, even when it seems to be the last thing you have, is what separates the great riders from the good ones.

Agreed!