Questions about stage 1 turbo kits quality

[smithabusa]

Gary,

If you haven't looked into it at all, for $180 you can get
ECU Flasher
Pigtail harness that stays on the bike
shift light that gets controlled by the flapper valve circuit

with this you can tune
fuel
ignition
ignition dwell time
have dual maps for boost or nitrous
bump up rev limiters
etc
etc
etc
etc

ECU editor software is available for free to download and check out, and you can build your own hardware or buy ready made, tested stuff that i build in a nice case with professional harness etc.

Greg

 

[rocketgeezer]

velocity has had it fair share of problems....

never heard a single complaint about rcc.

Without getting into a full page or two on which is the better kit, this post hits the nail on the head with a 10lb sledge, personaly, go with the RCC kit, chances are if you buy Velocity you will be extreamly pissed before its all said and done

 

[Dr. M]

Let me post my experience as I am sitting here in my shop fitting the right side body panel around a Velocity Racing Stage 1 w/ adders kit. I procured this system from my local Suzuki dealer who had intended to build a drag bike but the economy changed his mind. The VR kit I have came with a boost controller and a water injection kit. Let me also say I have never installed a turbo before and didn't have a clue what I had gotten myself into.

First, the folks at VR have been nothing but helpful over the phone. If they aren't in the office, they return my calls quickly. They have had patience with me and all my stupid questions. I do have a good mechanical aptitude and engineering education, a well equipped shop, and I can machine simple parts and pieces as needed.

If I had one criticism it would be that the instructions are written more for someone who has done this before. I will also say that some parts of the "kit" could be better thought out or more completely developed. For example, the water injection kit came with only a schematic of how the parts should be layed out, but no brackets were supplied for the water pump or solenoid. That's where my creativity had to come to bear to get the parts all mounted up. Not a big deal, but IMHO it takes these kits out of the beginners range. While you get a water tank, there are no mounts for it. I ended up building a shelf in the trunk for this purpose. Again, several hours of fabricating were required.

The boost controller adds an external waste gate to the kit. The instructions for this were better than the water injection kit. However, no brackets are provided to mount the little parts and pieces. It took me a visit to the TiAL website to figure out how the system was supposed to work.

The instruction manual for the kit was written for the 99-07 bikes with hand written notes for the Gen II bikes. There needs to be a manual specifically for the Gen II bikes as there are differences which must be explained. For example, how does one connect the turbo up-pipe to the intact plenum when the ram air tube is part of the bodywork support structure on the Gen II? While I was told "just cut out the top and bottoms section of the tube to fit," that entails nearly total removal of the front body work to get the tube out. Once you cut it, the assembly is pretty weak so you need to put in a cross-brace through the tube to strengthen it enough to hold the side panel. None of this is covered in the manual and you are on your own. Again, that wasn't a big deal, but if it were explained, I would have saved hours.

Now, don't hear me complaining... anybody install a Brock's clutch cushion kit in a Gen II? Brock's instructions weren't the best, either, and I ended up disassembling my clutch three times to get it correct after two phone calls to them. (note: make sure the thick fiber is the third one in the stack, not the first one against the first steel that is next to the cushion - the instructions don't tell you that).

So, it has taken me two solid weeks to get this kit installed. I have made custom parts for the lower radiator mount, solenoids for the water injection and boost controller, water pump, fuel pressure gauge, and a couple more. Do you have to do this? No, you could just zip tie crap up inside the bodywork, but that isn't for me.

There are no instructions on how to cut the bodywork, which is also proving to be a fun challenge. I have 5-6 hours in the left panel alone. You have to make cuts to clear the up-pipe, air cleaner, and inside to clear the radiator since it is spaced out 3/4" at the bottom. Lots of fun and you are messing with the pretty parts of the bike. My stress level was through the roof (again, that's me).

I've kept a photographic record of this install and will be putting it up on my website in the next few weeks. It will be too long for this forum, but it will add a lot of detail that isn't in the VR manual.

I am pleased with the quality of the parts and pieces that came in the VR kit. I got a PCIII USB with it and it comes with a base turbo map loaded. Since I now own a DynoJet 250, I'm not so concerned about the quality of that map as I will build a custom one for the bike.

Once the kit was all mounted up, I poured in two gallons of fresh Chevron Supreme (no alcohol) and turned on the key to check the fuel pressure. The FMU was set up correctly and 41 psi showed on the gauge. I hit the start button and the engine fired on the third revolution. No leaks, no electrical glitches. It is a bit loud, but it is inside my small shop.

In the end, would I buy again from VR? Sure. Their customer service has been great, but they aren't geared up for the incompetent or inexperienced mechanics.

Hope this is a bit useful.
Steve

 

[POWERHOUSE]

I am going to buy a stage one turbo kit this spring, i've come down to RCC or Velocity racing, and I made a little comparison sheet and was wondering if anyone might know why they have such a big difference.
The RCC kit comes in at $200 higher, and almost all the options are considerably more expensive Clutch springs $80 (velocity $30) BOV $375 (Velocity $350) Full pipe and Carbon can $540 (Velocity is $550) and for the most interesting difference the water injection... RCC charges $795 where Velocity only charges $250.

I've read tons of threads that say RCC has the best tech support, but if the quality of the kits are equal and they both produce the same power with similar warranty's then I don't think it takes a finance major to make the decision.. Does anyone know if Velocity cuts a lot of corners on their product for the considerable price difference? I mean how could the water injection cost $795 for one and $250 for the other?
Thanks for any help

You are comparing apples to oranges, and that is why you are seeing differences in pricing. For instance, no one has addressed your main question: how could one water injection cost $250, and the other $795? Well that is because the cheaper one that Velocity uses is a b.s. tank that is pressurized by boost pressure and squirts water into the plenum. IMHO, its worth about $125, and is a setup we used to use back in 1977 on KZ1000s. RCC, on the other hand, gives you a high pressure AQUAMIST setup with a custom tank - the high pressure electric pump supplies water through a high pressure jet that atomizes the water into a fine mist - when I think of the best water injection setups I have seen, AQUAMIST comes to mind. And the setup that Richard at RCC provides could easily sell for much more.

Quality did not used to be job one at Velocity, but that has changed, and their kits actually fit now, and boost tubes line up with plenums and the welds no longer look like your son did it in high school. So Velocity has come a long way, probably because of the competition.

Velocity's Stage One turbo is not capable of making over 400 RWHP, like the one that comes standard on an RCC kit. This may not be an issue for a Stage One customer, but does become an issue should you have upgrades in mind later on. Both companies make good quality kits, but RCC kits have more range and involve less fabrication. The instructions are better, the support is better, the two year warranty on EVERYTHING - including the fuel pump and turbo unit itself, will give you peace of mind.

In a nutshell, if you are planning on staying at Stage One power, both kits will do the job. Pick your poison, and step into the turbo world - you will never regret it!!

 

[cdhoroho]

you need to also point out the RCC kit comes standard with an external wastegate
and velocity (last i knew) came with an internal wastegate

You are comparing apples to oranges, and that is why you are seeing differences in pricing. For instance, no one has addressed your main question: how could one water injection cost $250, and the other $795? Well that is because the cheaper one that Velocity uses is a b.s. tank that is pressurized by boost pressure and squirts water into the plenum. IMHO, its worth about $125, and is a setup we used to use back in 1977 on KZ1000s. RCC, on the other hand, gives you a high pressure AQUAMIST setup with a custom tank - the high pressure electric pump supplies water through a high pressure jet that atomizes the water into a fine mist - when I think of the best water injection setups I have seen, AQUAMIST comes to mind. And the setup that Richard at RCC provides could easily sell for much more.

Quality did not used to be job one at Velocity, but that has changed, and their kits actually fit now, and boost tubes line up with plenums and the welds no longer look like your son did it in high school. So Velocity has come a long way, probably because of the competition.

Velocity's Stage One turbo is not capable of making over 400 RWHP, like the one that comes standard on an RCC kit. This may not be an issue for a Stage One customer, but does become an issue should you have upgrades in mind later on. Both companies make good quality kits, but RCC kits have more range and involve less fabrication. The instructions are better, the support is better, the two year warranty on EVERYTHING - including the fuel pump and turbo unit itself, will give you peace of mind.

In a nutshell, if you are planning on staying at Stage One power, both kits will do the job. Pick your poison, and step into the turbo world - you will never regret it!!

 

[POWERHOUSE]

you need to also point out the RCC kit comes standard with an external wastegate
and velocity (last i knew) came with an internal wastegate

Thanks, Pinky . . . somebody already did point that out, I didn't want to beat a dead horse . . .

 

[cdhoroho]

Thanks, Pinky . . . somebody already did point that out, I didn't want to beat a dead horse . . .

i realize that
but you posted an update about their quality and i just wasnt sure if they would think that was the only difference

 

[Dr. M]

For instance, no one has addressed your main question: how could one water injection cost $250, and the other $795? Well that is because the cheaper one that Velocity uses is a b.s. tank that is pressurized by boost pressure and squirts water into the plenum. IMHO, its worth about $125, and is a setup we used to use back in 1977 on KZ1000s. RCC, on the other hand, gives you a high pressure AQUAMIST setup with a custom tank - the high pressure electric pump supplies water through a high pressure jet that atomizes the water into a fine mist - when I think of the best water injection setups I have seen, AQUAMIST comes to mind.

Your statement is not true. VR's water injection kit consists of a welded and vented tank, in-line filter, a high pressure water pump, a solenoid to control the opening of the water line to the high pressure water mist jet, and a vacuum/pressure actuator switch that controls when the system is actuated (mine is 5 lbs boost). I have no idea when VR started using this kind of system, but since I just finished installing it, I can say your description of the VR system is not what they are selling today.

Please don't read that I am criticizing you, I am not in a position to do so with my limited experience, but neither is it fair to VR to have inaccurate claims publicized.

Regards-
Steve

 

[cdhoroho]

Your statement is not true. VR's water injection kit consists of a welded and vented tank, in-line filter, a high pressure water pump, a solenoid to control the opening of the water line to the high pressure water mist jet, and a vacuum/pressure actuator switch that controls when the system is actuated (mine is 5 lbs boost). I have no idea when VR started using this kind of system, but since I just finished installing it, I can say your description of the VR system is not what they are selling today.

Please don't read that I am criticizing you, I am not in a position to do so with my limited experience, but neither is it fair to VR to have inaccurate claims publicized.

Regards-
Steve

actually he was being a tad vague about the explanation
he is a dealer of all turbo kits and does know what each come with

 

[bcarpman]

Hello everyone. Thanks for all the great info!!!!

I'm wondering if I can get some feedback on these systems as far as rideability is concerned?

I'm not a newbie to turbo bikes. I built a turbocharged/intercooled/EFI CBR600 back in 1991. It made 202hp at the crank but was a nightmare to ride. Lag was excessive and you could never predict when the power was going to hit. Modulating the throttle through a corner was a nightmare. It was fast as anything built (at the time), but was just too hard to control.

I realize there has been a lot of improvement since then, and there's a huge difference between a 600 and a 1300cc bike.

I'm not saying I'm going racing, but how are these kits in a corner? How is throttle modulation when you're trying to keep the tire hooked up or the front wheel in front of the back wheel?

Are they really a lot faster from a launch? Or are they so hard to launch that they're only faster in a high speed roll on? If you're playing stop light drag racer with a stock Busa will you decimate him, or will he stay even until a certain speed?

Which kit/options/turbo/housing are the best from a rideability standpoint? I'm figuring I'm not really going to care if it's got 250 or 320hp at the wheel. Just want it to be as streetable as possible.

It sounds like you guys have put a lot of work into getting the kinks worked out, and I know we all tend to justify our own projects (I do), but if anyone can give me some reliable feedback, I'd love to hear it.

THanks!!!

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Your statement is not true. VR's water injection kit consists of a welded and vented tank, in-line filter, a high pressure water pump, a solenoid to control the opening of the water line to the high pressure water mist jet, and a vacuum/pressure actuator switch that controls when the system is actuated (mine is 5 lbs boost). I have no idea when VR started using this kind of system, but since I just finished installing it, I can say your description of the VR system is not what they are selling today.

Please don't read that I am criticizing you, I am not in a position to do so with my limited experience, but neither is it fair to VR to have inaccurate claims publicized.

Regards-
Steve

Steve - actually, my statement is true - and so is yours. We have to be careful here and make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Velocity does indeed offer the Aquamist pump setup you are describing - it is not the one that goes for $250 . . .

 

[OZBooster]

Hello everyone. Thanks for all the great info!!!!

I'm wondering if I can get some feedback on these systems as far as rideability is concerned?

I'm not a newbie to turbo bikes. I built a turbocharged/intercooled/EFI CBR600 back in 1991. It made 202hp at the crank but was a nightmare to ride. Lag was excessive and you could never predict when the power was going to hit. Modulating the throttle through a corner was a nightmare. It was fast as anything built (at the time), but was just too hard to control.

I realize there has been a lot of improvement since then, and there's a huge difference between a 600 and a 1300cc bike.

I'm not saying I'm going racing, but how are these kits in a corner? How is throttle modulation when you're trying to keep the tire hooked up or the front wheel in front of the back wheel?

Are they really a lot faster from a launch? Or are they so hard to launch that they're only faster in a high speed roll on? If you're playing stop light drag racer with a stock Busa will you decimate him, or will he stay even until a certain speed?

Which kit/options/turbo/housing are the best from a rideability standpoint? I'm figuring I'm not really going to care if it's got 250 or 320hp at the wheel. Just want it to be as streetable as possible.

It sounds like you guys have put a lot of work into getting the kinks worked out, and I know we all tend to justify our own projects (I do), but if anyone can give me some reliable feedback, I'd love to hear it.

THanks!!!

What boost levels were you running on the 600 ? 200hp is not bad for back then
usability in corners is all about setup, correct turbo size choice, then boost controller choice worst mistake most do is make there bike loose its finesse with too much boost, great if you drag racing with long arm and good tire
.
going around corners with turbo is also a learnt skill, getting to know your bike and how it responds, feeding the power in earlier so it drives out hard

 

[megawatt]

bcarpman - RCC stage 1, stock engine/compression with 6# spring, 4.5" stretch. IMO the rideability is great. I can be in a turn and easily use throttle control to do what I want. I don't have to worry about any hit or rush of power at the wrong time. With only 6# it is a smoooooth power delivery.

Must launch above 6000 rpm if you want boost avaliable from the get go in the case of your "playing stop light drag racer with a stock Busa" scenario. My boost starts at around 5500 with stock gearing. Non turbo & non big cam busas would not be a problem at any speed even from the stoplight. But you do have to spend some time "learning" how to ride the turbo.

 

[bcarpman]

bcarpman - RCC stage 1, stock engine/compression with 6# spring, 4.5" stretch. IMO the rideability is great. I can be in a turn and easily use throttle control to do what I want. I don't have to worry about any hit or rush of power at the wrong time. With only 6# it is a smoooooth power delivery.

Must launch above 6000 rpm if you want boost avaliable from the get go in the case of your "playing stop light drag racer with a stock Busa" scenario. My boost starts at around 5500 with stock gearing. Non turbo & non big cam busas would not be a problem at any speed even from the stoplight. But you do have to spend some time "learning" how to ride the turbo.

Is that you road racing a turbo Busa???

Ozbooster: I think I was running 19-20psi on a highly modified engine. The 200 was at the crank, as at the time, chassis dynos weren't common.

 

[Dr. M]

Steve - actually, my statement is true - and so is yours. We have to be careful here and make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Velocity does indeed offer the Aquamist pump setup you are describing - it is not the one that goes for $250 . . .

A-haaaaa. Thanks for the clarification. I have lots to learn when it comes to these turbo bikes.

Steve

 

[megawatt]

Is that you road racing a turbo Busa???

No, my Busa trackdays was before the turbo and extended swingarm days.

 

[turbojonny]

I just installed RCC's stage one kit on my gen 2. It's seamless in it's power delivery and flawless in it's fitment and function. The up-pipe to plenum fitment looked like N.A.S.A. level quality. It will also make 420 hp when I chose to build the motor to handle it. Richard is always helpful, which is to be expected with a top notch business owner, but more importantly he has always been legitimately concerned with the quality of his kits and the level of service he an his employees provide. In my opinion he is the only affordable quality option.

 

[fscotti875]

Go with RCC, my bike dropped right on exhaust pipe and cracked weld....i mailed it to RCC he fixed it at no charge.

 

[gsx1300rr]

Wow, I started this thread quite some time ago! I am still learning a lot by reading this though. Well for a update! I have since sold the 02 Busa I had originally started this thread for and got a 08. I have it in the shop right now doing a FULL engine/trans build & RCC stge 1 turbo kit. I'm not stretching bike but I am doing 19/40 sprockets. I believe smithabusa mentioned a guy named Rick, if that's the same guy near Livonia I believe he did the trans/motor build. I will post pics/dyno info as soon as I get it back. It should be back in my arms by the end of the month or early March . For a while, the SRP kit entered my options, but after lots all the things I read about SRP,and talking to Jack at RCC sport bike I had to go with Richard.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

kits are not the same....rcc has an external gate...velocity does not. There is your 200 difference.

There other parts can probably be used from velocity...clutch springs you definitely can

Undoubted that Rcc is great, and velocity had it's share of problems when Barry ran the company. But now with Jason as the new owner he has changed velocity for the better. Plus the stage 1 kits have external gates now. There's a local shop in town that pumps out velocity kit fitted bikes on a weekly basis, and have not seen any issues with them. Plus if you already have any velocity, or rpm parts on your bike, let Jason know, and he will cut you a even better deal. I'd say go for it, plus it's made in the U.S. of A!