Org un-scientific poll >>>>> Obama Care <<<<<

[skydivr]

The real question is do we want to live in a "corporate monarchy" or a true free society. You have to have some form of worker's rights to have freedom because the "owner class" has a natural power over someone who offers their service and then has to figure out how to get paid for it. The problem with a corporate monarchy is that only a few will own and so rule the roost. As owners (corporations) get bigger and bigger they naturally become more and more sociopathic and focus on their bottom lines over all else.

There are things in our lives that are inherently socialist (shared benifit) - roads, defense, air/water quality, etc. No one person or corporation can own these things that are basic requirements and have a society remain free to the individual. Healthcare is one of these things, as it is essential to the well being of the individual and the society (look at how AIDS has devastated many african societies or outbrakes of things like bird flu). We therefore have to have some level of control of healthcare by the people; as total corporate control threatens individual freedom. I would personally like to see a country of all small businesses. As businesses get bigger they begin to rival governments and therefore threaten individual freedom.

Nobody says there doesn't need to be some limits on big corporations. That's what the Anti-trust legislation was supposed to be about. That's why ATT got broken up in the 80's. That's why some of these banks should have never been let to get so big that they became "too big to fail" and got bailed out (along with the car companies). However, taxing their earnings at the personal level is certainly not the answer nor does it put any binders on the big corp. When you get too big, you can now edit how the game is played (thru lobbying).

Some of government intervention is a waste of time however. We just got notice that the State of AL wants to audit us AGAIN for sales tax in their state. This will be the third time in probably 10 years. The have never left here with a penny, yet they like to come back because we are easy to find and we are already on their 'list'. How about going after some of our competitors who we know from our dealings with our customers that they are ignoring the laws?

 

[fallenarch]

I don't think we have ever truely seen laws in this country designed to prevent the increase in corporate power since the late 1800's when the industrialists were figuring out how to take an individual based agrarian society into an industrialized corporate monster.

It will take a voter revolution to break the control of the corporations. and I don't really see that hapening. It is amazing but people will vote against themselves rather than vote against their employers.

As for the audit thing I feel your pain. We have a similar situation and it is very costly to prove you followed the rules every 2-3 years. I don't have an answer on that one and if I did I would be using it myself!

 

[Gpmo]

Nobody says there doesn't need to be some limits on big corporations. That's what the Anti-trust legislation was supposed to be about. That's why ATT got broken up in the 80's. That's why some of these banks should have never been let to get so big that they became "too big to fail" and got bailed out (along with the car companies). However, taxing their earnings at the personal level is certainly not the answer nor does it put any binders on the big corp. When you get too big, you can now edit how the game is played (thru lobbying).

Some of government intervention is a waste of time however. We just got notice that the State of AL wants to audit us AGAIN for sales tax in their state. This will be the third time in probably 10 years. The have never left here with a penny, yet they like to come back because we are easy to find and we are already on their 'list'. How about going after some of our competitors who we know from our dealings with our customers that they are ignoring the laws?

They go after you because they know the bigger corps have better lobby groups to buy our. Politicians .

 

[skydivr]

So true. That's what the anti-trust laws were put into place for.

 

[Gpmo]

So true. That's what the anti-trust laws were put into place for.

And we know how well they are working out right.

 

[skydivr]

Oh, believe me, the Republicans don't get a free ride and there is some stuff I'm ticked off about them too; the Tea Party is gonna make their life hell while we work on fiscal recitude. Regardless, they are still the only bright light in a room full of dim bulbs.

 

[ditchdr]

I dont give my opinion here much, however I felt i need to weigh in on this. Now keep in mind i was born a country boy in the middle of Jedburg SC (look it up), My family started out like many dirt poor! my mother worked her butt off to become a lawyer, and my father a pilot. Not once did they ever give us anything, other then the baiscs required for living. When i wanted to go cart as a kid, my dad found one in boxes, I used my money to buy it and I had ot put it together. I wated I Bike, same thing i wanted one I earned money and I bought it. Now with todays society we have a big sector of the population feeling as if they are entilted to what ever they want. The truely sad part of this is that it has reached the white house. Every person up there is so woried about votes that they will promise you the moon if you vote for them. Not a damn one of them has EARNED a vote, they were bought. With welfair running rampid, medicare and medicade given to pretty much anyone who wants it, social security in the toilet, and now the big brother health care, I can see why many folks feel it is easier to to sit back and let unclse Sam take care of them. The most work they do in a month is walk to the mail box pick up their check and bum a ride to the bank to cash it. This once great country has lost its focus. What ever happend to the land of the free? This you are still free under the new HC law? Try going to Mc Donalds and getting a big mac if your over weight. Im pretty sure they will have to refuse service based on guide lines some fat cat in DC made up. Bottom line is we are giving up our freedomes(sp) willingly just bacuse we are to lazy to take care of our selves. Face it folks the only person responable for you is (are ya readsy for this) YOU!!! It is not my responablily to pay for your health care, food, home, elec, or what ever else. I can not count the amount of times I have gone to the local gas and go for something only to wait in line behind some person using food stamps (my money) to buy top shelf items , only to whip out a wad of 20's to buy lottery tickets. What are we teaching our children? That its ok to live on someone elses dime? Like i have said it is sad thiat this has become a way of life for some.

I feel all gov asst programs should come with a time limit. Everyone comes upon hard times. Lord knows i have had my fair run of them, lucky for me I was albe to get my self and family through them with out having to borrow money or depend on others. I can think of one not so long ago. I lost my job on a Monday, no one was hiring, it was not a good time to be with out a job. However i printed up flyers and by Wed of that week I was mowing grass in my neighborhood to pay the bills. I did not give up and run to the DC side and expect to be taken care of, no I pulled my self up by my boot straps and did what i had to do to ensure my family was not with out. Granted it turned into a very large business, but thats not the point.

Bottom line is us as Americans need ( yes NEED) to stop looking to the asshats in DC to make our lives easier, it is time to do it your self with your own money earned by the work YOU produce.

And yes i do understand there are some that truely need the help, but the majorty are in it for the free ride. I could give countless examples of it but we all know what im talking about.

 

[raydog]

You and I are on opposite sides of this issue. The folks that approve of Obama Care has become a minority by a sizeable margin. I am grateful that the american people as a whole have rejected the coolaid.

If you love your kids and want them insured after they have left the nest, by all means keep them insured at YOUR expense. They are your kids and your responsibility. I had no involvement in the conception so please don't pass your responsibilities onto me after your kids are grown.

The federal government cannot effectively run such a massive monstrosity like Obama Care efficiently. Look at the fraud within the medicare system that the government has no idea how to control. Medicare is a walk in the park compared to Obama Care. Insurance companies do a damn good job at rooting out fraud because their existence depends on it.

The health care system needs repair but this boondockle in not the answer. So I understand, a family earning $35K annually will pay around $2,500 in insurance premiums which will be deducted from their check by their employer. They can hardly feed themselves as is, what effect do you suppose this will have on the lower income scale folks.

Your posts make it appear your view is: "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid"? Correct me if I am wrong.

Wow, glad I ckd in on this strand since if I don't respond, the reader is left with the impression that I didn't answer so I must think that "everyone that disagrees with me is stupid". The short answer is, NO, disagreement is a component of critical thinking and is, usually, a healthy form of discourse.
The longer answer is...I am a part of the small minority of progressives on this forum and for some years just bit my lip when reading rank putdowns of liberal thinking. I don't bite my lip anymore, when I see something in the Random section that is contrary to what I have discovered, I speak up. "Stupid"? If you ck back in the political threads you will see that I've been called a "libotard" (clever combination of liberal and retard) and many other terms from people that have no idea what makes me tick. I spill my guts out about a partner/friend I had that died in the streets and I'm told in so many words, "suck it up and don't be thin skinned, a lot of us have combat experiences". These issues grate on me and regarding political issues, I do not apologize for what I think is misinformation.
Sure, I believe some of the Democrats are greedy POS's but when I weigh both sides of this bipolar Country I see one side talks about "death panels", birth certificates, 33 House bills to end the Affordable Care act, accusations that Obama is a "tax raiser" when tax ratios now are lower now than any of the last 4 Republican Presidents. And the big one....climate change, 50 year pics of Mount Killimanjaro in the summers go from snowcap to barren, global ice depth getting thinner yearly, frequency, intensity and duration of tornadoes and hurricanes increasing exponentially, firestorms in wintertime....a political party that pretends this is "a natural cycle" of earthly events and that we can't make a difference is not my party. Am I part of the problem re: lack of compromise? probably, but it's the Repubs that are on record saying, "compromise is a weakness".
So, the overwhelming amount of folks on the right on the org can post rebuttals and why what I say is so wrong....but it's what defines me, I cannot be accused of being on both sides of issues and remember, this is a motorcycle forum. Doyle

 

[BusaWhipped]

There are parts of it that are good. Health care reform should have been limited to making sure insurance companies were competing with each other, not collaborating with each other, and ensuring they don't make it impossible for individuals to get coverage at reasonable rates. Like everything else, the Gov't does, it went way overboard and decided they need to control how private businesses function internally and move to take over the market segment. The Gov'e has failed in every business like venture they have taken on. The bureaucracy and red tape is inefficient and expensive. Why do think the Gov't is all of a sudden going to be good at this business?

 

[masterblaster]

Raydog, you call yourself a liberal, I would not consider you a liberal, I would say you are a socialist. You want to take other peoples money to get things done that you want done against the will of the majority who earn that money.A liberal would dedicate himself to making more money to support causes they believe in. Democrats and Republicans are the same as you, both groups hold the power and respect their party more than they do the US Constitution. They use the power to tax to enslave the people and force them to do things they don't want to do, nowhere is most of what they do covered in the US Constitution. Tell me what part of any daily activity in your life is not regulated directly or indirectly by the Federal government, just give me one example. This is known as oppression, oppression will not stand, has never stood anywhere in the history of man, it breeds resentment and revolt. The Repubs / Democrats divide and conquer the people using the law, racial laws, gender laws, tax laws, as long as they keep the people falsely divided enough they have an easy time pulling the wool over everyone eyes and keeping everyone in line. If you are a true liberal take your own money and commit it to the things you care about, as a true liberal this is what I do. On that note I am very okay with you being a socialist as its your choice. Just remember, Socialism always sinks the whole boat, decimates true hope and aspirations of a population, has been tried many times and has/is failed/failing. Please take off the political blinders and stop besmirching the title of "Liberal".

 

[fallenarch]

I dont give my opinion here much, however I felt i need to weigh in on this. Now keep in mind i was born a country boy in the middle of Jedburg SC (look it up), My family started out like many dirt poor! my mother worked her butt off to become a lawyer, and my father a pilot. Not once did they ever give us anything, other then the baiscs required for living. When i wanted to go cart as a kid, my dad found one in boxes, I used my money to buy it and I had ot put it together. I wated I Bike, same thing i wanted one I earned money and I bought it. Now with todays society we have a big sector of the population feeling as if they are entilted to what ever they want. The truely sad part of this is that it has reached the white house. Every person up there is so woried about votes that they will promise you the moon if you vote for them. Not a damn one of them has EARNED a vote, they were bought. With welfair running rampid, medicare and medicade given to pretty much anyone who wants it, social security in the toilet, and now the big brother health care, I can see why many folks feel it is easier to to sit back and let unclse Sam take care of them. The most work they do in a month is walk to the mail box pick up their check and bum a ride to the bank to cash it. This once great country has lost its focus. What ever happend to the land of the free? This you are still free under the new HC law? Try going to Mc Donalds and getting a big mac if your over weight. Im pretty sure they will have to refuse service based on guide lines some fat cat in DC made up. Bottom line is we are giving up our freedomes(sp) willingly just bacuse we are to lazy to take care of our selves. Face it folks the only person responable for you is (are ya readsy for this) YOU!!! It is not my responablily to pay for your health care, food, home, elec, or what ever else. I can not count the amount of times I have gone to the local gas and go for something only to wait in line behind some person using food stamps (my money) to buy top shelf items , only to whip out a wad of 20's to buy lottery tickets. What are we teaching our children? That its ok to live on someone elses dime? Like i have said it is sad thiat this has become a way of life for some.

I feel all gov asst programs should come with a time limit. Everyone comes upon hard times. Lord knows i have had my fair run of them, lucky for me I was albe to get my self and family through them with out having to borrow money or depend on others. I can think of one not so long ago. I lost my job on a Monday, no one was hiring, it was not a good time to be with out a job. However i printed up flyers and by Wed of that week I was mowing grass in my neighborhood to pay the bills. I did not give up and run to the DC side and expect to be taken care of, no I pulled my self up by my boot straps and did what i had to do to ensure my family was not with out. Granted it turned into a very large business, but thats not the point.

Bottom line is us as Americans need ( yes NEED) to stop looking to the asshats in DC to make our lives easier, it is time to do it your self with your own money earned by the work YOU produce.

And yes i do understand there are some that truely need the help, but the majorty are in it for the free ride. I could give countless examples of it but we all know what im talking about.

Are you aware that the biggest reason people with jobs and savings lose their houses is health costs? Are you aware that many people are paying nearly $1000/month to cover their family? Are you aware that a heart attack can cost you $500,000? You can talk all the good old American "I stand on my own" crap you like but most people don't make enough money in their entire adult life to pay for an extended fight with cancer. The simple fact of the matter is that no individual that isn't one of the 2% richest makes enough money to have any kind of financial security against a health crisis. Why? Because we don't want to stop the extortion of health corporations that spend 40% of their billings on overhead. I don't see where that was a part of anyone's American dream except the vultures who are bleeding this country dollar by dollar.

There is a big difference between being a simple person and a stupid one. When are we going to stand up for ourselves?

 

[masterblaster]

Arch, if we all had to pay cash for our healthcare and didn't have the Gov direct paying to hospitals I am sure these costs would be very low compared to today. Why cant insurance companies compete across state lines for health care? Why don't we limit Lawyers portion of awards in medical malpractice. Why don't we set up a government hospital system similar to the VA for the poor and indigent. It surely would be cheaper and spur home grown doctors instead of penalizing the docs that we have today, and force us to import half the docs we have today. I personally want nothing to do with Government healthcare even though I can go to the Va at will, I never will, I have seen it in action, not good. That being said it is good at the basic stuff like flu cold broken bones etc etc, heart surgery brain surgery I am going to private doc as long as the law lets them practice. It is fkd up no matter what way you look at it, the down hill slope increases proportional to government involvement.

 

[raydog]

Raydog, you call yourself a liberal, I would not consider you a liberal, I would say you are a socialist. You want to take other peoples money to get things done that you want done against the will of the majority who earn that money.A liberal would dedicate himself to making more money to support causes they believe in. Democrats and Republicans are the same as you, both groups hold the power and respect their party more than they do the US Constitution. They use the power to tax to enslave the people and force them to do things they don't want to do, nowhere is most of what they do covered in the US Constitution. Tell me what part of any daily activity in your life is not regulated directly or indirectly by the Federal government, just give me one example. This is known as oppression, oppression will not stand, has never stood anywhere in the history of man, it breeds resentment and revolt. The Repubs / Democrats divide and conquer the people using the law, racial laws, gender laws, tax laws, as long as they keep the people falsely divided enough they have an easy time pulling the wool over everyone eyes and keeping everyone in line. If you are a true liberal take your own money and commit it to the things you care about, as a true liberal this is what I do. On that note I am very okay with you being a socialist as its your choice. Just remember, Socialism always sinks the whole boat, decimates true hope and aspirations of a population, has been tried many times and has/is failed/failing. Please take off the political blinders and stop besmirching the title of "Liberal".

OMG, what an amazing post you have created. Not only do you say I'm not a liberal but you say you are! I can only measure your positions based on what you state here so that in itself is limited. Conversely, you also are limited in your perception of me and my values. You don't know what causes I help support with both time and money, you don't have the market cornered on the definition of a "true liberal" nor of a "socialist". The fact is, our society includes ALL approaches in it's maintainance of social order and you demonstrate the trait of "jumping on the bandwagon" re: labeling anything that connects the government and humanitarian values as "socialism". The history of socialism is wide, diverse and a global term that when used in these posts, does not do justice to accuracy. Bottom line, it's just a simplistic "label" that is inaccurately and broadly used as a right-winged code word for "bad".
You can feed hungry kids and the elderly by insisting they "learn how to fish". I think we need to get them strong enough to walk to the lake before we hand em a fishing pole. BTW, because I don't agree with you doesn't indicate that "I have blinders on". Raydog the Socialist

 

[fallenarch]

Arch, if we all had to pay cash for our healthcare and didn't have the Gov direct paying to hospitals I am sure these costs would be very low compared to today. Why cant insurance companies compete across state lines for health care? Why don't we limit Lawyers portion of awards in medical malpractice. Why don't we set up a government hospital system similar to the VA for the poor and indigent. It surely would be cheaper and spur home grown doctors instead of penalizing the docs that we have today, and force us to import half the docs we have today. I personally want nothing to do with Government healthcare even though I can go to the Va at will, I never will, I have seen it in action, not good. That being said it is good at the basic stuff like flu cold broken bones etc etc, heart surgery brain surgery I am going to private doc as long as the law lets them practice. It is fkd up no matter what way you look at it, the down hill slope increases proportional to government involvement.

I don't disagree with any of that but something has to be done. RomobamaCare may not be perfect but it is the first time we (the people) have had a place to fight back from, that's why it's important. If we don't fix it and finish it though it will not help anything in the long run.

 

[Gpmo]

Once again if we have the option of staying how we were which wasn't working at all and Obamacare/Romneycare or doing nothing what do we do? I don't see the REpublican party/conservative/teaparty doing jack to make anything better, not one single plan of their own. All i see is a bunch of people who are finger pointing and creating division instead of any kind of unity. So maybe if anyone here has an idea they should get ahold of their local politicians and do something other than talking crap about the other side being this or that.

Personally i wish i had a better way but i can't think of one I don't have a clue how to make it better but if i did well i'd be on the phone or writing a letter or doing something, anything i could. Its a lot better than sitting around and *****ing about them damn socialists.


Btw i don't like government run health care but the industry wasn't changing and any change is better than what we had.

 

[fallenarch]

Raydog, you call yourself a liberal, I would not consider you a liberal, I would say you are a socialist. You want to take other peoples money to get things done that you want done against the will of the majority who earn that money.A liberal would dedicate himself to making more money to support causes they believe in. Democrats and Republicans are the same as you, both groups hold the power and respect their party more than they do the US Constitution. They use the power to tax to enslave the people and force them to do things they don't want to do, nowhere is most of what they do covered in the US Constitution. Tell me what part of any daily activity in your life is not regulated directly or indirectly by the Federal government, just give me one example. This is known as oppression, oppression will not stand, has never stood anywhere in the history of man, it breeds resentment and revolt. The Repubs / Democrats divide and conquer the people using the law, racial laws, gender laws, tax laws, as long as they keep the people falsely divided enough they have an easy time pulling the wool over everyone eyes and keeping everyone in line. If you are a true liberal take your own money and commit it to the things you care about, as a true liberal this is what I do. On that note I am very okay with you being a socialist as its your choice. Just remember, Socialism always sinks the whole boat, decimates true hope and aspirations of a population, has been tried many times and has/is failed/failing. Please take off the political blinders and stop besmirching the title of "Liberal".

"We the People of the United
States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure
domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do
ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Before you go interpreting the constitution maybe you should read it. By the way it also says in there that interpreting the document is to be done by the courts - says nothing about your opinion in there I checked it.

 

[SWJ88]

i think all health insurance companys need to just be wiped out and soley the government provide free healthcare to ever RIGHTFUL citizen. but even now we the tax payers are paying for all these illegal immigrants to have their babys here in america cause of course the doctors wont do it for free!(20gs a pop btw) and we are to kind hearted to just shut the door on them. america made the mistake along time ago by letting immigrants overrun our congress. this place is now total caos. the government nearly gets 50% of our check anyway, the least they can do is give us free healthcare. allls i got to say is if things dont start looking up im headed to thailand. the majority of the population speaks english and you can be filthy rich for a fraction of the price of here. Im no longer proud to be an american . congress is supposed to work for the people but gradually over time they have turned the tables

 

[masterblaster]

Read it many times Arch this is not the welfare you are used to, obviously there is a big difference in someone reading it and someone understanding it. From Wikipedia, easier to read and comprehend.

The United States Constitution contains two references to "the General Welfare", one occurring in the Preamble and the other in the Taxing and Spending Clause. The U.S. Supreme Court has held the mention of the clause in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments."[2][3]

Moreover, the Supreme Court held the understanding of the General Welfare Clause contained in the Taxing and Spending Clause adheres to the construction given it by Associate Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States.[4][5] Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not a grant of general legislative power,[6][4] but a qualification on the taxing power[7][8][4] which includes within it a federal power to spend federal revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government.[9][4][10] The Court described Justice Story's view as the "Hamiltonian position",[4] as Alexander Hamilton had elaborated his view of the taxing and spending powers in his 1791 Report on Manufactures.

As such, these clauses in the U.S. Constitution are an atypical use of a general welfare clause, and are not considered grants of a general legislative power to the federal government.[11]

"We the People of the United
States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure
domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do
ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Before you go interpreting the constitution maybe you should read it. By the way it also says in there that interpreting the document is to be done by the courts - says nothing about your opinion in there I checked it.

 

[fallenarch]

None the less, many of the founders were in favor of public health, and this was what they meant at the time they wrote it. Just as it was common to ban guns in urban areas and store them in armories. There is no denying that the founders saw the power of the people as extending much further than many right-wing historical re-arrangers would like to admit. You could argue that there were many more public health in a pre-industrial America and that our founder's meant addressing polio and scarlet fever, not free dental care for all.

 

[masterblaster]

I am for "Public Health", i.e. CDC, public clinics for all that need them, and don't mind paying for it through my taxes. I don't want to be forced on public health when I already have my own health care covered.If you are poor or indigent I have no problem helping you in time of need, my issue is the government (Federal) making me be subject of that racket which increases the power of the repubs and democrats over the final detail of our existence, our ability to breathe. I think you would be hard pressed to find any American that would be okay with letting anyone die because of lack of medical care, good care or bad care can be argued, but Government care tends to be bad or not as good as private care.
Its a simple issue of freedom, its okay to be free to choose to abort a 6 month old baby but not okay to be free to choose your own medical care?

None the less, many of the founders were in favor of public health, and this was what they meant at the time they wrote it. Just as it was common to ban guns in urban areas and store them in armories. There is no denying that the founders saw the power of the people as extending much further than many right-wing historical re-arrangers would like to admit. You could argue that there were many more public health in a pre-industrial America and that our founder's meant addressing polio and scarlet fever, not free dental care for all.