OK, got to get this off my chest...

[mjn]

One more thing...that 12000 vtx? in 2 years it'll sell for.....oh, maybe $8,000.
The 2 year old Wideglide?...it'll bring $13,000. That is 66% for the honda, and 83% for the HD.

Oh, and the "drug adicts" comment.. Your'e pretty close on that one
It isn't a tough job selling a harley.

Maybe I'm unique...( I have been told that before ) But seriously, I like most all 2 wheeled machines. Each fits thier own niche. Different bikes, different riding styles....Not WRONG, or BAD....just different.

I guess that unless you are exposed to it, it is tough to understand.

I was, and I do.

 

[thunder]

between this thread and the other H-D bashing thread, some of You guys need to take a step back and look at things.

1) Quality: You will not find better paint or chrome on any other mass produced motorcycle built. as far as mechanical reliability goes H-D's warranty service is still around 4%. This is not an unreliable motorcycle. the chances are the ones that are broke that you see are usually Highly or improperly modified and owner mantained.

2) Yes the price is high but so is the resale. The quality of the parts (OEM & Screamin Eagle) are top rate.

3) The dealerships. You guys (haters) don't like the lifestyle thing but how would You like to be able to walk into a Suzuki dealership and have a choice of any factory and/or aftermarket part or accessory for Your busa. The H-D guys have this option. B!tch all You want but for the most part MOST H-D dealerships have the best Tech's, knowledgeable parts people, and good sales people.

How do I know this? since 1973 I have owned personaly over 3 dozen Harley's, Owned 2 aftermarket shops, and owned 1 H-D dealership along with working at a H-D dealership for 5 years. I just turned 50 and have been riding since the age of 12. The hating on H-D's is a waste of Your energy the H-D guys don't know that We (sport riders) exist or care. They live in Thier "life style" and could care less what we think of them or thier bikes.

i must disagree. the resale is no longer what it used to be. and the quality isnt all that either, maybe triple plated. where as any good aftermarket chroming company uses 5 plated chroming. as far as being all american, wrong. my father builds bikes()well over 10 years now) because when he started working on his and my mothers fatboys, we noticed all the non american made parts being used.

the traditional all american harley is long gone....

and as far as the quality of squawkin chicken parts... bogus

aftermarket parts are more than readily available to us at the dealership.



i, and many subscribe to the thought of..what ever gets you in the wind


and i believe all the animosity between harley riders and sportbikers was indeed created by the harley crowd

just my opinion

Resale is still quite a bit higher than any other cruiser type bike. You may lose at worst 30% of what you paid for a harley over a 8-10 year period. You will lose 60% of what You paid for an asain cruiser in 5 -7 Years.

Don't know who You buy your aftermarket H-D parts from but all of the import parts from Taiwan CCI, Drag, V-Twin are trash, poor quality, and bad fit. OEM H-D part or acc is quality fit and finish. Never said they were all american but alot of the money generated stays in the pockets of americans. if an earlier generation of american had not been so lazy and greedy/short sighted they would probably still be 100% American. Been building bikes since the 70's I have had features in Iron Horse, Supercycle, outlaw biker, and two best of shows in world of wheels show competition.
I have always been an advocate of the Two wheels of any make is cool with me theroy.
Trust me the animosity between the two camps at least as far as my 38 years of riding started in our camp (jap bikes)but is still being carried on by both camps. in the 60's and 70,s We never gave a sh!t what someone rode as long as they rode. who ever showed up on a given evening or weekend could have been riding Suz,Honda,Yamaha,Kaw, Britt. or H-D We all had each others backs and had alot of fun.

 

[thunder]

Thunder,
I'm not a HD hater by any means, however
1) Japanese companies offer a superior product at a lower price. The ONLY reason to buy a HD is for the name. Fit and finish on HD is not superior to that of any major manufacturer's high end bikes. Ever check out a Rune?
2) The parts are way overpriced, but that's because that's what the market will hold. Due entirely to excellent marketing. I've no idea about the quality, so I'll take your word for it.
3) there are many aftermarket outlets available for all sportbikes, please don't act like we're all riding around on stock bikes here! The techs should be knowledgeable, the technology hasn't changed since the 50's. the sales staff is considered great because it is easy to sell a drug to addicts. they have a captive audience, thanks yet again to the marketing guys.
4) The lifestyle you say? Buying a do-rag, tank top and boots all emblazoned with the logo does not constitute living a lifestyle as far as I am concerned, if 1/2 the people that owned some type of HD gear actually owned a bike, or even knew how to ride I would agree that they were buying into a lifestyle, but the reality is that they are buying into a perception. They want people to think that they are living the outlaw life, but the reality is far from that in most cases.
I don't hate HD riders, but I do think that a higher percentage of those guys/gals would qualify as posers than would sportbike owners. I also dislike the attitude that many of them seem to develop after purchasing one, almost as if they believe all the hype........

Mr. Brown, just a couple of dissagreements here....

Quality-ie; fit and finish?  I also worked at a multi-line m/c store for a time.  There is no comparison.  Period.  The Rune is a cool bike, no doubt.  But park a SE Fatboy next to it, then tell me that the paint, chrome, controls....(on and on) are of equal quality.
You won't be able to.  There is NO comparison.
Park a 12,000. VTX next to a 15,500. Wideglide...again, absolutely no comparison.

Don't get me wrong..the japenese bikes are largely more reliable....although not by much these days.

You are right, the available aftermarket accessories are a direct reflection of the bikes success...and lets be honest here, the performance of a stocker is....well, not too impressive, so those buyers that ARE performance minded must modify to make themselves happy.
But I can't count how many times a customer told me that they were'nt interested in going 150 mph...didn't really care how quick it was.  Just wanted a comfortable cruiser...one that, in thier minds had more status.  (Yes, marketing at work again

)
Yes, I agree that HD factory accessories are spendy...I also agree that it is partially due to popularity (marketing again!).  It also, however, has to do with the quality.  HD accessories are, without a doubt, the highest quality parts on the market for the HD product.  No exceptions.  
As far as the % of posers....yea, you could be right.  There probably are more posers on HD product than sportbikes....but not nearly as many as most folks think.
I have seen perfectly normal people turn into "barney badass" after the purchase of a new HD.....but I've also seen the same thing happen on import cruisers....
"the technology hasn't changed since the 50's"..Not true.  Although they have tried VERY hard to keep the "Look" the same...marketing again!  By keeping the look similar and yes some of the parts nearly the same..it makes it VERY easy for companies to make accessories for it.  The bars that fit on a '98 softail also fit on a '05 Roadking..

Believe me, I am not incinuating that there are not a fair amount of wannabe bad boys riding Harleys...there are.  But make no mistake, there are a LOT of real, hardcore motorcyle riders that choose the brand because of the ease of maintinence, familiarity,.........and just because they like 'em!

Lets face it, Harley does some cool shiat.  Latest Cycle World shows the new Screamin'Eagle V-Rod dragbike.  Complete with slick and wheelie bar.  175 hp liquid cooled twin.  Pretty dam cool if you ask me.

I guess the bottom line is, there is a lot of truth in what you say.  The Quality issue is not one of them.  Park 'em side by side and you will have to agree.  Otherwise you are blind.  

I still have tons of friends that ride harleys.  None of them have a problem riding with me.  They all shake thier head and wonder if I am sane........(am I?)  but they respect other machines.  I think the "other" type of HD riders is the minority.
Just my .02

well put.

 

[Mr Brown]

Okay,
1) If it's objective go check out a Rune or Goldwing and tell me it's not every bit as high quality as anything H-D puts out.
2) You live in Montana, no big surprise the dealers you went to looking for busa parts didn't carry much. Montana isn't exactly sportbike central.......
and yes, H-D accessories are high priced.
3) how many new motors have H-D introduced since the 50's? We are still dealing with air-cooled single cam motors here. The V-Rod is the only H-D with even close to new technology, and H-D guys bash it as not a "real" Harley........
4) I wear leathers and a helmet because I don't want to die, not because it's part of a popular fad, but that's just me. I don't hate the fact that H-D marketing department is great at what they do, I just stated that is the reason for the success. I could not care less if everyone and their Mom buys a Harley, I won't buy one til they make a bike that is what I want. So far they haven't.

 

[WWJD]

WWJD,
I agree totally with what you said, but it's the image that these guys think the bike gives them that cracks me up. If you are a puss, no bike is gonna make you not a puss, regardless of how much leather you wear or how loud your exhaust is. Women know what they want in men, and the bike doesn't fool them for long.....

women don't know. they are deffened by the growling primal roar of the exhaust and their instinct takes over. it's pretty funny to watch! I've seen it many times. if any guy gets on the bike and puts on the leather it MAKES them into a bad boy in women's subliminal mind [whether she feels that way or not] and that's why it works. true, it won't fool them for long, but long enough to get laid... which, of course was the goal in the first place

WE know those guys are dentist and doctor wussie wannbees, but it works on an instictual level on the woman.

.....Same way money does.

MHO

 

[mjn]

Okay,
1) If it's objective go check out a Rune or Goldwing and tell me it's not every bit as high quality as anything H-D puts out.
2) You live in Montana, no big surprise the dealers you went to looking for busa parts didn't carry much. Montana isn't exactly sportbike central.......
and yes, H-D accessories are high priced.
3) how many new motors have H-D introduced since the 50's? We are still dealing with air-cooled single cam motors here. The V-Rod is the only H-D with even close to new technology, and H-D guys bash it as not a "real" Harley........
4) I wear leathers and a helmet because I don't want to die, not because it's part of a popular fad, but that's just me.  I don't hate the fact that H-D marketing department is great at what they do, I just stated that is the reason for the success. I could not care less if everyone and their Mom buys a Harley, I won't buy one til they make a bike that is what I want. So far they haven't.

No mud slingin' here bud...just talk.

#1.) I have. MANY times. (have you?) Sold the HD quality by doing just that. Numerous times.
#2.) I don't think Montana is anything "central".....oh yea, Log homes! But an awesome place to ride!!!
#3.) Ok, this could take awhile....and I won't get it all right....but here goes. In the 50's we had the panhead. Iron cyl's, alum heads...can't remember the size...like 750cc's? Leaky, weak, not all that great of a motor....but none of the bike engines were all that much back then.
Next came the shovel head. Big improvement over the pan, but still a leaky, weaky, breakin' down prone motor. 1200cc's. This was the era when the brits and japenese bikes were making serious headway. Also the time where the bowlingball company ran the show....into the ground.
Next came the Evo, short for Evolution. BIG improvement. BIG. Still down on power compared to the jap stuff...but nobody seemed to care. It was the early 80's and harley was starting to pick up pace. Thruought the 80's and the 90's...they shook like hell. Leaked oil like crazy...but people bought the hell out of them. It was a love affair for a LOT of people. Oh, evo was 1340cc's
Fastforward to 1999. The new twincam. Totally new motor. Completely. Looked like the old stuff (on purpose) but HUGE leap forward in tech. Huge. 88 ci. now available as large as 103, larger with off brand internals. They balanced the motor in the softails (softails are a rigid mount motor) virtually eliminating vibration.
Then they added the Revolution motor...the V-Rod. Liquid cooled DOHC motor. Very cool powerplant. Bullet proof.
In '04 they finally revamped the sportster, (still had the evo based motor) all new motor, rubbermounted...smooth machine. Suddenly a viable option in the smaller cruiser market. Phew.....hope I got most of that right...Thunder, help me out here...

Anyway Mr. Brown, your comment about the tech not changing since the 50's couldn't be further from the truth. That IS the basic perception of non HD folk....just isn't true.
They design the product to retain the "old" look. But inside, they improve every year.
4.) Dude, I wear my gear all the time too. I think it is just nuts not to. But ya know what? It is thier choice. Thier life. If they want to risk it.....let 'em!

 

[thunder]

Okay,
1) If it's objective go check out a Rune or Goldwing and tell me it's not every bit as high quality as anything H-D puts out.
2) You live in Montana, no big surprise the dealers you went to looking for busa parts didn't carry much. Montana isn't exactly sportbike central.......
and yes, H-D accessories are high priced.
3) how many new motors have H-D introduced since the 50's? We are still dealing with air-cooled single cam motors here. The V-Rod is the only H-D with even close to new technology, and H-D guys bash it as not a "real" Harley........
4) I wear leathers and a helmet because I don't want to die, not because it's part of a popular fad, but that's just me.  I don't hate the fact that H-D marketing department is great at what they do, I just stated that is the reason for the success. I could not care less if everyone and their Mom buys a Harley, I won't buy one til they make a bike that is what I want. So far they haven't.

Like I said I've been in the business since the 70,s and am not trying to fight with You. The Rune is a nice bike but basically a "one off" a wing is mostly a car nice but a car other than the power issue I would still take a FLTR over a wing for a cross country trip but as a large cruiser goes I'd still take a Harley. New engines 48-64 Panhead, 65-84 Shovelhead (two variations) 83-99 Evo's 99-Present TC's quite a few variations (just so you know TC is for TWIN CAM not ONE CAM) V-Rod is the wave of the future Yes but some of us don't like it but it is here. Do You love everything that Suzuki,Honda,or Yamaha builds in thier line, probably not. Don't know much about Montana, The world record Dyno Hayabusa (701RWHP) is in Great Falls Montana (Hank Booth) some of the fastest bikes and cars on Bonneville come from here. Check out Caifornia timing assc website You will see TEAM BOZEMAN (Montana) Holding a LSR for a Yamaha Warrior. No Montanans Are Not a bunch of stupid sh!t kickin hicks.
My point with being geared up to a cruiser rider looks as stupid to him as he looks to us.
Love My BUSA but in all honesty It's fit and finish isn't up there with My Two Triumphs (1200 Daytona SE, 1200 Trophy) love them to but not up to there with the newer H-D's. Would I buy another Suzuki again after a few small problems on My Busa? Yes. Will I ever buy another H-D? Yes.

 

[moondog]

I sat down on Dixon for a few hours, watching this spectacle, trying to capture the real essence of the event. I came away with one real truth: 95% of harleys run like sh*t. Hard to start, slobbering behemoths backfireing and afterfiring there way up and down the street. And the clones run worse. Is it because they all put the cobra straight pipes on without tuning? I understand cold hearted air-cooled motors but this goes way beyond that...and in the day of 107 reliable hp out of a 600, how can anyone think that 68 hp out of 1450 cc is acceptable?

 

[mjn]

SSHHHIIIAAAT DOG! I got the motor history mostly right!! Dayum......sometimes I just amaze myself...:blush:

 

[mjn]

I sat down on Dixon for a few hours, watching this spectacle, trying to capture the real essence of the event. I came away with one real truth: 95% of harleys run like sh*t. Hard to start, slobbering behemoths backfireing and afterfiring there way up and down the street. And the clones run worse. Is it because they all put the cobra straight pipes on without tuning? I understand cold hearted air-cooled motors but this goes way beyond that...and in the day of 107 reliable hp out of a 600, how can anyone think that 68 hp out of 1450 cc is acceptable?

Buddy, I'm tellin' ya...most of 'em JUST DON'T CARE. They want the "sound"...couldn't care less if it gets out of it's own way or not.
Not all of em, but a fair amount!

and 95%

?

Dammit, I've told you a bazillion times....don't exagerate!!!

 

[thunder]

Okay,
1) If it's objective go check out a Rune or Goldwing and tell me it's not every bit as high quality as anything H-D puts out.
2) You live in Montana, no big surprise the dealers you went to looking for busa parts didn't carry much. Montana isn't exactly sportbike central.......
and yes, H-D accessories are high priced.
3) how many new motors have H-D introduced since the 50's? We are still dealing with air-cooled single cam motors here. The V-Rod is the only H-D with even close to new technology, and H-D guys bash it as not a "real" Harley........
4) I wear leathers and a helmet because I don't want to die, not because it's part of a popular fad, but that's just me.  I don't hate the fact that H-D marketing department is great at what they do, I just stated that is the reason for the success. I could not care less if everyone and their Mom buys a Harley, I won't buy one til they make a bike that is what I want. So far they haven't.

No mud slingin' here bud...just talk.

#1.)  I have.  MANY times. (have you?)  Sold the HD quality by doing just that.  Numerous times.        
#2.)  I don't think Montana is anything "central".....oh yea, Log homes!  But an awesome place to ride!!!
#3.)  Ok, this could take awhile....and I won't get it all right....but here goes.  In the 50's we had the panhead.  Iron cyl's, alum heads...can't remember the size...like 750cc's?  Leaky, weak, not all that great of a motor....but none of the bike engines were all that much back then.  
Next came the shovel head.  Big improvement over the pan, but still a leaky, weaky, breakin' down prone motor.   1200cc's.  This was the era when the brits and japenese bikes were making serious headway.  Also the time where the bowlingball company ran the show....into the ground.
Next came the Evo, short for Evolution.  BIG improvement.  BIG.  Still down on power compared to the jap stuff...but nobody seemed to care.  It was the early 80's and harley was starting to pick up pace.  Thruought the 80's and the 90's...they shook like hell.  Leaked oil like crazy...but people bought the hell out of them.  It was a love affair for a LOT of people.  Oh, evo was 1340cc's
Fastforward to 1999.  The new twincam.  Totally new motor.  Completely.  Looked like the old stuff (on purpose) but HUGE leap forward in tech.  Huge.  88 ci.  now available as large as 103, larger with off brand internals.  They balanced the motor in the softails (softails are a rigid mount motor)  virtually eliminating vibration.
Then they added the Revolution motor...the V-Rod.  Liquid cooled DOHC motor.  Very cool powerplant.  Bullet proof.
In '04 they finally revamped the sportster, (still had the evo based motor) all new motor, rubbermounted...smooth machine.  Suddenly a viable option in the smaller cruiser market.  Phew.....hope I got most of that right...Thunder, help me out here...

Anyway Mr. Brown, your comment about the tech not changing since the 50's couldn't be further from the truth.  That IS the basic perception of non HD folk....just isn't true.
They design the product to retain the "old" look.  But inside, they improve every year.
4.)  Dude, I wear my gear all the time too.  I think it is just nuts not to.  But ya know what?  It is thier choice.  Thier life.  If they want to risk it.....let 'em!

I'll fix a couple of problems 45 CID is 750cc's, 61 CID is 100 cc's, 74 CID is 1200cc's, 80 CID is 1340 cc's,88 CID is 1450 cc's and 95CID is 1550 cc's. Panheads came out in 61" and 74"
Sportsters 57 up 900 or 1000 cc's.
Shovels 74&80"
Evo's 80"
TC's 88" and factory 95" along with factory 103" engines.

More power out of a Jap cruiser other than a Valk no way. Displacement to displacement they are pretty close usually with H-D having more torque. Last shop I had we did dyno work on all brands ran warriors,intruders and vulcans along with quite a few others.

 

[Mr Brown]

mjn,
I hear what you're saying, maybe all the H-D riders around here have sub-standard bikes, but it seems to me all the big 4 Jap companies put out an equal product in terms of fit/finish and quality. I guess I am blind...LOL
I agree about the resale value, but again that is a product of marketing, not due to any intrinsic higher value. The demand for new and used Harleys is simply greater. I've been riding long enough to remember when you couldn't PAY someone to come pick up a used Harley. In case you forgot when this was, I'll utter the three letters that bring fear to a Harley lover's heart: AMF!
I'm sure there are plenty of true bikers that buy H-D for a variety of legit reasons, I'm not knocking them but the current resurgence that we are seeing is 98% due to marketing.
I don't think that putting training wheels, a slick, a slider, and adding 175cc's just to run 9's is particularly cool, let alone the fact that the bike is over 30 large...
But it is cool to see a major manufacturer making a drag ready bike......

 

[mjn]

Yea, not now anyway...we had a dyno too. Dissapointed many a import owner..... Then we had that nut with a lowrider......bigbore and a bottle. Stinkin thing made 168 HP. to the tire! Now THAT is a grenade waiting to happen!

 

[moondog]

mjn, same thing my wife says......

Before she got her degree in math I had her convinced from here....to here was 12"......

 

[pure_ego]

About the only thing that annoys me about the typical harley guy is that they've never ridden a japanese bike... yet they constantly belittle them..

I have ridden several HD's... I'm allowed to talk #### about em'. lol

Serious though.. a guy here in town has a 2 of the baggers (not sure on the combination of letters.. SUX model maybe.. I dunno) and he has always tried to convince me to sell the 'busa and get a harley.. offered to let me try his out. I said ".. Sure... I'll ride yours for a bit and you can ride mine for a bit so we'll both see what we are missing."

end of discussion.. he wouldn't even get on it to see what the differences were. ..


that in my mind is the most annoying thing... don't talk #### about something you know nothing about.

 

[Mr Brown]

Okay guys,
You have me on the 50 year old tech issue, but in a world in which the previous generation of a given motor is all but obsolete, H-D seems a tad behind the times. I've ridden sevearl different Harleys, and clones, my brother in law is a dedicated fanatic, and cruisers are cool in their own way. I have never been impressed with anything other than their comfort, and still stand by my assertion that marketing makes them as popular and expensive as they are.
Thunder, I didn't mean to imply that Montana was a hick state, but I'm sur that there is a higher number of bikes per capita in states with longer riding seasons ane less extreme weather....
mjn, I've never had the pleasure of selling H-D's or any other bike brand for that matter, but I am experienced in selling techniques, and know that it ain't hard to sell crackheads crack. The analogy is that the demand is already created, in this case by marketing not addiction, all you have to do is get a decent supply.
Not meaning to come across as bashing Harley, I don't care what or even if anyone else rides, just very tired of the whole "I have a Harley, therefore I am superior" attitude which seems to be prevalent in the bike community, particularly amongst the posers.

 

[mjn]

Mr. Brown said;I guess I am blind...LOL


Dude, you are too young to need cheater glasses!  hell, I was 39 before I needed mine!

Mr. Brown said;But it is cool to see a major manufacturer making a drag ready bike......

thats all I'm sayin' man...just kinda cool.


Ego said; that in my mind is the most annoying thing... don't talk #### about something you know nothing about.

I couldn't agree more....



<!--EDIT|mjn
Reason for Edit: None given...|1128375360 -->

 

[thunder]

About the only thing that annoys me about the typical harley guy is that they've never ridden a japanese bike... yet they constantly belittle them..

I have ridden several HD's... I'm allowed to talk #### about em'. lol

Serious though..  a guy here in town has a 2 of the baggers (not sure on the combination of letters.. SUX model maybe.. I dunno) and he has always tried to convince me to sell the 'busa and get a harley.. offered to let me try his out. I said ".. Sure... I'll ride yours for a bit and you can ride mine for a bit so we'll both see what we are missing."

end of discussion.. he wouldn't even get on it to see what the differences were. ..


that in my mind is the most annoying thing... don't talk #### about something you know nothing about.

PE, got to agree with you on this, that is one of the reasons after 28 Years of H-D ownership i took a break and got out of the business. there are way to many cool rides out there to have to be brand or model loyal. You'll find most of the old timers will ride anything just because It has two wheels. The guy that You know probably was sacred of Your bike as it is quite a change from what he is riding.

 

[mjn]

Mr Brown;

Can't disagree with that man!

hey, on a totally different note...how in the hell do ya take several quotes out of someones post and put it in yours....ya know, the ones I see are highlighted quotes...not the whole post, just part of it.

I can't figger it out and it's startin' ta piss me off!

<!--EDIT|mjn
Reason for Edit: None given...|1128375569 -->

 

[thunder]

Okay guys,
You have me on the 50 year old tech issue, but in a world in which the previous generation of a given motor is all but obsolete, H-D seems a tad behind the times. I've ridden sevearl different Harleys, and clones, my brother in law is a dedicated fanatic, and cruisers are cool in their own way. I have never been impressed with anything other than their comfort, and still stand by my assertion that marketing makes them as popular and expensive as they are.
Thunder, I didn't mean to imply that Montana was a hick state, but I'm sur that there is a higher number of bikes per capita in states with longer riding seasons ane less extreme weather....
mjn, I've never had the pleasure of selling H-D's or any other bike brand for that matter, but I am experienced in selling techniques, and know that it ain't hard to sell crackheads crack. The analogy is that the demand is already created, in this case by marketing not addiction, all you have to do is get a decent supply.
Not meaning to come across as bashing Harley, I don't care what or even if anyone else rides, just very tired of the whole "I have a Harley, therefore I am superior" attitude which seems to be prevalent in the bike community, particularly amongst the posers.

Naw It's all good Bro, I'm just sitting here killing time waiting for the washmachine guy. The 50 yo tech issue is part of the marketing technique as H-D puts it it's evolution. The engine evolves year after year. I think that the new 1900 Yamaha Star is a cool bike and for the money It is nice but You can see where they cut here and there to keep the price point down. I'd give one a chance tho, Hated the first VTX 1800 but they have done some good stuff with it over the last couple of years. I'm in total agreement with you on the V-Rod Destroyer if I was still a dealer I doubt that I would have ordered one, but It's back to your marketing theroy You go over to SBN these idiots think that It's a detuned V&H bike.