More R&D from Frank
- Thread starter OB_Bob
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OB_suiciderider
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Nice catch. I look forward to reading more.
Frank Adams
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Bob, This is something that was stumbled on to from sending several Busa cam's out to have Lift added to them. This much I can tell you.
As to why Suzuki made any changes at all I can't tell you. I haven't researched it any further than what I've explained. Yes, I'm sure there is more to find out but knowing the Industry like I do there could be a hundred different explanations as to why it happend at all.
What I know from this and from what everybody else should be taking notice to is the Hp differences. What I'm trying to say is that the secrets to building Hp are in the Cam's. 281 to 295 is not alot but there is a noticeable difference in Hp all because of the Busa head.
There is a Huge amount of Hidden Hp in the Busa motor.
Some are already seeing 205plus and this bike hasn't even been around for a year yet.
Does anyone have any ideal what it cost to build that kind of Hp in a 1127 or a 1075(water pumper)? 9 to 10 thousand would be my answer.
This is just the start!
Wait until builders start playing around with the fuel injection.
I'm ready, but I don't have the resources that my problem.
....Frank
As to why Suzuki made any changes at all I can't tell you. I haven't researched it any further than what I've explained. Yes, I'm sure there is more to find out but knowing the Industry like I do there could be a hundred different explanations as to why it happend at all.
What I know from this and from what everybody else should be taking notice to is the Hp differences. What I'm trying to say is that the secrets to building Hp are in the Cam's. 281 to 295 is not alot but there is a noticeable difference in Hp all because of the Busa head.
There is a Huge amount of Hidden Hp in the Busa motor.
Some are already seeing 205plus and this bike hasn't even been around for a year yet.
Does anyone have any ideal what it cost to build that kind of Hp in a 1127 or a 1075(water pumper)? 9 to 10 thousand would be my answer.
This is just the start!
Wait until builders start playing around with the fuel injection.
I'm ready, but I don't have the resources that my problem.
....Frank
Well done Mr. Adams!
To find out which cam you have will probably be hard at best without using a degree wheel. Duration is all but impossible to measure with a micrometer alone. Any one on the other hand would easily read part numbers.
Frank, are those cams back in the motor yet? If not, a part number would go a long way to help out. Plus, factory cams might be easier to come by. If you can get one out of the bone yard off a waded up one...cheap fix?
To find out which cam you have will probably be hard at best without using a degree wheel. Duration is all but impossible to measure with a micrometer alone. Any one on the other hand would easily read part numbers.
Frank, are those cams back in the motor yet? If not, a part number would go a long way to help out. Plus, factory cams might be easier to come by. If you can get one out of the bone yard off a waded up one...cheap fix?
OB_Cycle Stuff
Registered
I have talked with a turbo mfg. that has the capability to change the ecm in the busa to compensate for timing when the boost comes on. I should be selling his systems in a month or two. And the kicker is it will be cheaper then any other turbo system on the market.
Frank Adams
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Maui: Yea! That would be the ticket if you were intending on replacing your stock cam's for stock cam's
My busa's due to hit the Dyno in 10 to 14 days and were going to be useing Lifts in this range...
Intake- 390's
Exh- 370's
Durations in the 240's
I have a Damn good Head with some big valves.
My Engine Builder is setting it up with Low Compression to start with.
I'm starting to get Excited and Hell I'm sitting here with Snow covered streets!
....Frank
My busa's due to hit the Dyno in 10 to 14 days and were going to be useing Lifts in this range...
Intake- 390's
Exh- 370's
Durations in the 240's
I have a Damn good Head with some big valves.
My Engine Builder is setting it up with Low Compression to start with.
I'm starting to get Excited and Hell I'm sitting here with Snow covered streets!
....Frank
Frank Adams
Registered
There is a pretty good list of things about the Busa motor I'd to share with you Guy's when I finish this current 1360 prodject. But here is something I thought I'd pass along until I get to that point...
Do you know how some guy's were seeing low 150's rwhp on the Dyno and some were seeing around 160 rwhp?
Heres why, Some where along the lines Suzuki made a change in the Intake Cam's. Some Busa's came out with a 281 duration and the others came out with a 295 duration.
Now I don't know how to tell you how you can check yours to see which one you have unless you have the ability to pull off your valve covers and use a mic.
This is one that I thought everybody would like to know now...
....Frank
Do you know how some guy's were seeing low 150's rwhp on the Dyno and some were seeing around 160 rwhp?
Heres why, Some where along the lines Suzuki made a change in the Intake Cam's. Some Busa's came out with a 281 duration and the others came out with a 295 duration.
Now I don't know how to tell you how you can check yours to see which one you have unless you have the ability to pull off your valve covers and use a mic.
This is one that I thought everybody would like to know now...
....Frank
OB_c.dolan
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To Cycle Stuff: Does turbo setup you're getting, in a couple of months, use a variable vane turbo ? I would be interested in Busa set. What boost and horsepower would it be designed for ?... ...Have variable vane turbo on Harley. Works great. Much bottom end, no turbo lag, as far as I can tell.
OB_mrabusa_h
Registered
Good info thanks 
Gixx1300R
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I have seen dyno runs on 6 different Busas and mine had the highest horsepower.Some of the bikes dynoed had a lower serial number than mine and some of them had a higher serial number.Did Suzuki randomly change the cams or was I just lucky.What about where the cams are degreed?Are they 106 intake and 99 exhaust?
OB_c.dolan
Registered
To Cycle Stuff: I hope it is variable vane. From what I've seen, it's the way to go. Less, or no turbo lag, smoother transition from low , to high boost, throttle more controllable, easier to adjust fuel mixture consistancy, through the power band. My brother had a hell of a time with earlier turbos, during the 70's and 80's. If it was jetted ok for top end, it would foul plugs, and run ragged on low end. My Harley runs only 80 psi cranking pressure, and 7:1 compression. Boost comes on immediately, so it just feels like a bigger motor. It's up to 5 psi, by the time I cross intersection, on health, but not crazy takeoff. It is at 2 to 4 psi, on steady freeway speed, and will go to 10, very soon, after throttle opened up. If Busa version will perform like that, then 8, or 9:1 compression will be ok to live with, and may even run cooler around town. .................................. ....ps: sent e-mail re: turbo, and price on Akro pipe for 99 Yam R-1. my e-mail address: chrisdolan@webtv.net
OB_cbxchris
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Gixxer, Lori at web told me around 99 for exhaust and 104-106 on intake...don`t know where her info came from. When I degree or check cams I do it at zero clearance...used to put feeler guages betwwen lob and bucket on old shim under bucket engines...you eliminate the problem Brock talked about.On GS engines just run adjuster down on rocker. Lori recommended a 106-108 on thier cams...she said some were running 110-112 but she did not think it would be best for street...lower lob centers usually mean more compression and more bottom end ...high ones mean less compression and higher peak HP with less torque....hope this helps...maybe Brock can shed more light than me..I`m just back yard mechanic....
OB_Johnnycheese
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These are the numbers that I recieved from the factory from a very credible contact.
104 intake
99 exhaust
valve lash set at 0.0 and checked at 1.0mm open and close.
104 intake
99 exhaust
valve lash set at 0.0 and checked at 1.0mm open and close.
OB_Cycle Stuff
Registered
C.dolan you have mail. Frank I tried calling a couple of times this morning.
OB_Cycle Stuff
Registered
The turbo will be a Mitsubishi and it is not the same one MC-Xpress is using. I'm not sure if it is variable vane or not. I will know in a couple of weeks, but I do think it is. The prices will be as followed:
1. stage one is up to 250 hp for $3900 comes with stage one computer.
2. stage two is up to 300 hp for $4200 and comes with injector upgrade and stage 2 computer (recommend compression lowered)
3. stage three is upto 350 hp for $4900 and that includes injectors, curved intercooler, and stage three computer (compression needs to be around 9:1).
1. stage one is up to 250 hp for $3900 comes with stage one computer.
2. stage two is up to 300 hp for $4200 and comes with injector upgrade and stage 2 computer (recommend compression lowered)
3. stage three is upto 350 hp for $4900 and that includes injectors, curved intercooler, and stage three computer (compression needs to be around 9:1).
OB_Brock Davidson
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The camshafts do not have part numbers on them... they only have casting numbers, which tell you nothing about the lift/duration.
The proper way to check this is with a Cam Doctor. This is an expensive tool! Most do not have access.
The typical way to test is with a degree wheel/dial indicator.
I don't know for sure, but I would expect that Franks numbers were obtained using the degree wheel method.
Adjusted valve last would explain the descrpancy between the numbers.
Example: A valve with .011 inch valve lash would have less measured duration (and lift) than a valve with .005 lash.
This is because the cam is in contact with the bucket longer(Less gap... leading and trailing ramp contact sooner/leave later and lift valve higher.)
Additionally, cam duration can be measured in different locations relative to valve lift. Standard is 40 or 50 thousanths off of the valve seat.
The Busas cams are so detuned that a 5 degree diferance in duration would definately make a power change on the dyno and in the real world.(Especially if this were the case on all 16 valves!)
Just a thought,
Brock
ps. DO NOT ADJUST VALVE LASH LESS THAN 5 THOUSANTHS **** EVER ****...CAM DAMAGE CAN RESULT !!
The proper way to check this is with a Cam Doctor. This is an expensive tool! Most do not have access.
The typical way to test is with a degree wheel/dial indicator.
I don't know for sure, but I would expect that Franks numbers were obtained using the degree wheel method.
Adjusted valve last would explain the descrpancy between the numbers.
Example: A valve with .011 inch valve lash would have less measured duration (and lift) than a valve with .005 lash.
This is because the cam is in contact with the bucket longer(Less gap... leading and trailing ramp contact sooner/leave later and lift valve higher.)
Additionally, cam duration can be measured in different locations relative to valve lift. Standard is 40 or 50 thousanths off of the valve seat.
The Busas cams are so detuned that a 5 degree diferance in duration would definately make a power change on the dyno and in the real world.(Especially if this were the case on all 16 valves!)
Just a thought,
Brock
ps. DO NOT ADJUST VALVE LASH LESS THAN 5 THOUSANTHS **** EVER ****...CAM DAMAGE CAN RESULT !!
OB_Brock Davidson
Registered
I have no idea what the factory timing specifications are for the Busa, I have never measured them or asked my Suzuki contacts.
If you spend enough time chasing HP on the dyno, you will eventually realize that the MAXIMUM performance numbers for EVERY engine/application will vary.
As A general rule: lower lobe centers(105 and under) create more cylinder pressure sooner, this increases bottom end/midrange.
Higher numbers(109+) increase upper mid/top.
In reality: if they are close they are fine!
You can not make power with lobe centers... you can only move it!(increased high rpm power comes at the expense of low, and vise-versa.)
The cam specs(lift/duration, but more importantly profile) determine power output.
The number of variables that affect cam timing are overwhelming. There are many more areas that create power,timing,jetting(or mapping),fuel type, exaust, etc.etc.
These variables show up quickly on the dyno in the form of power! Master these first,then fine tune with cam timing for your application.
I have yet to figure out how to measure "Zero lash" a feeler guage won't fit....but the lash could be too tight. Besides an engine does not operate at 0 lash, to me these numbers mean nothing.
You have no choice but to trust the cam mfg.'s
( If you dive deep enough you could find substancial differances between EACH lobe! This has been going on since the first cam....engines still work well!....DON'T SWEAT IT!!!!)
I trust Yosh,Web and Megacycle.
The facory numbers are determined -in part- due to emissions,but they represent the best starting point for the application they were developed for----stock!.
I would start at 105 intake/ 109 exaust for most high speed applications(Busa with pipe,remap,airbox mod,16 tooth front etc). The Gearing will compensate for any small loss of low rpm torque.
Happy tuning,
Brock
If you spend enough time chasing HP on the dyno, you will eventually realize that the MAXIMUM performance numbers for EVERY engine/application will vary.
As A general rule: lower lobe centers(105 and under) create more cylinder pressure sooner, this increases bottom end/midrange.
Higher numbers(109+) increase upper mid/top.
In reality: if they are close they are fine!
You can not make power with lobe centers... you can only move it!(increased high rpm power comes at the expense of low, and vise-versa.)
The cam specs(lift/duration, but more importantly profile) determine power output.
The number of variables that affect cam timing are overwhelming. There are many more areas that create power,timing,jetting(or mapping),fuel type, exaust, etc.etc.
These variables show up quickly on the dyno in the form of power! Master these first,then fine tune with cam timing for your application.
I have yet to figure out how to measure "Zero lash" a feeler guage won't fit....but the lash could be too tight. Besides an engine does not operate at 0 lash, to me these numbers mean nothing.
You have no choice but to trust the cam mfg.'s
( If you dive deep enough you could find substancial differances between EACH lobe! This has been going on since the first cam....engines still work well!....DON'T SWEAT IT!!!!)
I trust Yosh,Web and Megacycle.
The facory numbers are determined -in part- due to emissions,but they represent the best starting point for the application they were developed for----stock!.
I would start at 105 intake/ 109 exaust for most high speed applications(Busa with pipe,remap,airbox mod,16 tooth front etc). The Gearing will compensate for any small loss of low rpm torque.
Happy tuning,
Brock
OB_Brock Davidson
Registered
Ps. Valve lash has NO influence on lobe center numbers! It only effects lift and duration.
Brock
Brock
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