Iraq and North Korea

Iraq and North Korea - Can the USA handle both...

  • Wage war against Iraq

    Votes: 25 100.0%
  • Wage war against North Korea

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wage war against both, at the same time

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Try diplomacy longer with Iraq

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Try diplomacy longer with North Korea

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Leave them both alone

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Turn them both in to parking lots

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • What happens is of no concern to me

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

STUNNAH

THE "STUNGUN" IS BACK!&#33
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Was just wondering what you all thought of this crisis...We do have several members that are active military and would be drawn into these conflicts...

Should we be playing the role of Goliath searching for David's?

At some point David may decide to stand against Goliath, what then?

Just curious...

Stunnnah
 

cache

Banned
this is the exact kind of situation that made me join. I want to break out a can of whoop-ass right now too, but cant. good thing, I need to stay home anyway.
mad.gif
 

Narcissus

Hayabusa Immortal
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I am not sure I should even touch this one as I generally meet very strong resistance for not agreeing 100% with what everyone else says. Let me just say this, this nation, as we know it, is crumbling. Some of you will refute this, many will not accept this. This is not a recent problem, it has nothing to do with terrorism, nothing to do with the media, nothing to do with any recent social changes. It is so fundamental and yet so subtle, the root of our problems dates back, most significantly, to 1913. It was an idea that the general public thought was good, but slowly backfired on the very people that wanted it and benefited the very people it was supposed to hurt. It is something that has happened to many societies throughout history and, in effect, it is why we have enemies today. Our historians remember the dates, but have forgotten the lessons and hence the process is repeating.

Give up so soon? Well, I want everyone to do a little thinking on this (and also test the type of responses I get). This is not an over-simplified answer, either. It is merely an event that triggered a chain of other events to happen combined with social habits already in place.

I have been doing a lot of thought lately, not only on this war and the economy, but on my own situation and of those around me. These past few days, it hit me and everything finally became clear. Now, to the obvious question, I think we are in way too deep with the war not to do anything, especially with globalisation. But before I reply any further, I really want to see if anyone can hit on what I just mentioned.
 

Kerberos

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Dawg! Just when I thought I could indeed be in the background and not confrontational, someone has to go and stir the pot and Kirby is compelled. My comments will follow shortly..
 

Kerberos

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I am not sure I should even touch this one as I generally meet very strong resistance for not agreeing 100% with what everyone else says. Let me just say this, this nation, as we know it, is crumbling.
You of course are right on it. Sheep have a very hard time with radical thinking outside the perverbial box.

Is crumbling? more like "has crumbled."

The republic has disintegrated into a ologigarcy with a face of democracy.

I for one am very glad to see the fall of the status quo and welcome the ultimate destruction of it. I say even if I am to be the first destroyed, let it be as long as the rest of the wicked follow.

I will not be the first to judge who is good and who is evil as I did not create either. But i will say that there will be no room for the half-hearted, the luke warm, the wishy washy. Be ye hot or cold I say.

"F" iraq, "F" the U.S. , "F" all that would oppose the truth. The Truth has stood for millienium prior to the U.S. and there have been countless that have fought against the Truth. They have and will crumble in the face of the Truth. Very few of us are awake and can see this. Most are still sleeping and will heretofore defend some fantasy of patriotism that gives them some sense of false security. I say they will "crumble" as the house built upon the sand, as the houses of the past have all fallen, rome, ottoman, jewish, islamic, christian, and secular have all been corrupted and fall short of the glory of YHVH.

I will rejoice in their demise. For it is written "Evey Knee Shall Bow", Mine shall be the first but hardly the last.

YHVH Elohim has given and shall likewise take away.
 

Kento-Moto

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I think your right Narcis, but it not just our country it is worldwide. I believe the pivital year was 1914. The industrial revolution was in full swing, life was suppose to get eaiser & better. Then with the assasination of Arch Duke Ferdinan ( spelling ?)
all hell broke loose... WWI - WWII ... I believe things will eventually get much worse before it gets better - much better. If I say more it is very bibical and I promised this is not the forum for that. If anyone wants to chat about this subject you may e-mail me. Thanx - Kent
 

Big O

Physicist Genii
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I voted leave them both alone. Recent articles say that the U.N. inspectors have found nothing in Iraq. I might tell Hussein, look, last time we left you alive, be nice or be stomped like a grape.

As far as North Korea is concerned, well, the South Koreans are not concerned, neither are the Japanese. And one big thing is missing in all this...what does China have to say about us threatening North Korea? They helped them last time. Why wouldn't they help them this time? If China says to leave them alone we will, without a doubt. Just the same way as we did when we jumped up and down about how we would recognize Taiwan as an independent nation in the 60s. China said if you recognize Taiwan, we will invade it, and we backed down. We can not fight a war with China.

Just my thoughts on this.
 

Big O

Physicist Genii
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Sorry still rollin'

Have we learned NOTHING from war? At some point you HAVE to put ground troops in, and some of our boys will die. We will appear to be the aggressor in all of this and our global image is not what it used to be. People like Americans and our technology, but they want us to leave them alone otherwise. I'm not sure it's a good idea to keep telling the world how it should be run. Every "Empire" that Kerb mentioned rose and fell, leave us not make that mistake.

I'm guessing that what Narcissus it talking about is that we started going global in 1913. Militarily.
 

ks-waterbug

Group Buy Guy
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As far as Iraq is concerned this is alot more like William Wallace seeking to remove the opposition in order to keep the peace in his country. Problem is for every one leader we unseat there are a hundred just like him/her waiting to take their place. I personally feel if we wage war it would not be worth the loss of one American life. The gains made by this war would be about as lasting as the one we started in Afganistan.
 

Narcissus

Hayabusa Immortal
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No offense, but you missed it by a mile.
wink.gif


1913 - The 16th Amendment is added to the Constitution, income taxes are made permanent.

Before then taxes were only levied to pay for wars and the rich payed for them. It was the 'Robin Hood' ideal that made people want an income tax, to tax the rich and give to the poor. Initially, this was a tax ONLY for the rich, which is why it became popular and was voted into the Constitutional Law. A good idea.... in theory, but two main problems: 1) The poor and the middle class were not taught financial education, something not taught by schools, only by parents. 2) Government fiscal policy is very inefficient. The government is rewarded for spending all its money. When they get money, they spend it all, hiring more people and building more. The money does not recirculate. Hence, the appetite for money grew. The rich, having financial knowledge, knew how to get out of this loop, through corporations. With the government appetite growing more and more and the rich paying less and less, the tax moved down to the middle class and eventually to the poor.

Now, this is as true today as it was in the 1920s. Let me take a poll: How many here own their own home? If you do is that your largest investment? Do you consider your home an asset or a liability? When you work at your job, are you working for money? When you get a raise, a bonus or get a new, higher paying job, what do you do with the extra money? Do you buy a bigger house, a new car or bike or go shopping? Or do you invest it in real assets, ownings that make money?

Does anyone see a pattern? The majority are taught to get a job, specialise and work for money. The rich, taught by their parents, have money work for them, they make money. You should now see that the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer all the while the government grows and grows. The poor are taxed when they earn, taxed when buy, taxed where they live and taxed when they die. The rich use the biggest loophole ever created, the corporation. They earn, buy and live on pre-tax dollars, investing in money producing assets and pay tax on whatever excess is left. The poor and middle class leave their children debt, while the rich leave their children inheritence. Socialism grows, capitalism dies and the masses are blinded by patriotism.

Income gaps have dissolved the greatest empires, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans on up to more recent history. All of them had a widening gap in income. People wanted more money, which led to higher prices which let to people wanting more money, all to buy liabilities. The poor can no longer afford proper health care, nutrition and general goods and dissent, blaming the rich and/or the government. The rich, not understanding the poor, opress them to gain control and security. The poor begin uprising and outsiders see a golden opportunity to attack. This is how the Roman empire fell. The masses attacked from within while the barbarians came from the north and attacked from the outside.

Now, replace the barbarians of 600AD with the terrorists of today. They see what we, in general, do not: a rich, powerful government spreading itself thinner. For whatever reason, religion, opportunity, land, power, they see the time is right to attack. The fruit has ripened.

I do not expect anyone to see this relation even as I have explained it. Most will probably misunderstand, please forgive me as I do not always articulate these points in the most efficient manner. After all, you were taught in school to get an education, to specialise, to work and to spend. As I have seen on other boards, I expect many to be angry and deny these statements. But the truth is as close as the pocket books of yours and mine. It has taken me 26 years of my life to finally put all of the pieces together and just now I am building my financial foundation, trying to squeeze myself out of the mess I made for myself and avoiding the very large mess my own father has made. I feel very fortunate, though. I have friends in their 40s, 50s and 60s who are just starting to realise this. An entire generation of people realising they have nothing but liabilities, ruined health from a lifetime of work savings and social security diminished and debts their children will have to pay.

My apologies if anyone has taken offense to this. I mean not to trivialise the war or insult anyone or prove any point as I am not arguing with any points. I mean only to attempt to reveal the very deep web into which we are entangled. I know I have omitted many points relating to the war itself, but in essence, my view is that the cause is right under our very noses and, in a way, no fault of our own but that of our parents and teachers, their parents and teachers and on down the line. If I can explain this better, please show me how.

thumbs-up.gif
 

Narcissus

Hayabusa Immortal
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I forgot to mention something else. The problem with the majority of corporations of today is that they are run by 'bean counters' not by financially informed. In other words, at the top, they see only profits and destroy the company itself through lay offs and spending cuts. The financial foundation is weak, the value of money diminished and the misery spread.
 

cache

Banned
No offense taken Narcissus... but given the current conditions of our fragile government, economy, and overall morale, revisit the topic and answer this: what would you do? Allow Iraq to continue to ignore the rules set forth for the world and let Sadaam run amuk free to do what he sees fit? Allow North Korea to hide behind their beliefs that they can lie about the weapons they have that can be easily bought by a group like AlKaida?

Face it, no matter what you think is wrong with out country, you live here and you know we enjoy freedom because me, Mark Howlin Mad, Busahigg, your neigbors, etc... believe in our freedom and are willing to do what it takes to preserve it.
Sure, there are plenty of Americans here for the "free ride", but the majority love what they do everyday. You can say what you like about people being content with their lives, but is it all that bad? You make it look like you are not happy with your life. I don't have a bunch of money falling out of my ass to do whatever I want, but the money I make is spent on what I want! Not what my government wants, not what some socialistic communist country wants me to do with it. I am free to use it as I see fit.

Jezus... sorry for that man, but you need to see how lucky you are.
 

Narcissus

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OK, I did not explain it properly or clearly. I am not saying I am unhappy, nor am I saying anything about people getting a 'free ride'. And I do see how very, very lucky I am right now. A month ago I was poor and complaining. Today, I see myself as merely broke and gaping at a world of legitimate possibilities. I am not talking about getting rich or anything like that, either.

I know this, at first, seems completely unrelated to the original question, my apologies for that. So, to your original question, like I said, we are too deep now to simply leave them alone. They want to be left alone, but we see them as a threat. What do you do with a guy that kills his subjects at the slightest sign of disobedience? Personally, with Iraq, I would have to say, use a combination special ops, propaganda and a different approach to diplomacy. We have been facing them too directly. With North Korea, I am not sure.

I have offered my perspective and now I will quietly step back from this thread. I do not want this to turn into a heated debate where everyone starts misreading and fighting each other here. We are all in the same big boat and should be helping each other. I offer my knowledge and findings, free for everyone to take or leave. That is all.

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cache

Banned
I knew this would cause me to say something I don't intend. Narcissus, I did not intend to shun you for straying off-topic.

Peace.
unclesam.gif
<-- pun intended!
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STUNNAH

THE "STUNGUN" IS BACK!&#33
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I guess since I actually started this post it would be fitting to include my perception of the current crisis.

I see the point that all have made in your post and can agree with you all to an extent.

However, I am compelled to agree strongly with Narcissus on his position of the rich getting richer, with Kerberos on the  fragile foundation on which America sits, with Cache on his belief in Patriotism, and Brennanop as to what have we learned from previous wars.

It is somewhat unfortunate that America is considered the only super power that exist in todays world.  I believe it has given us a misplaced mentallity that we can rule the world with our word and strength.  But I then ask how can we as Americans be leaders of "The Free World" and not be capable of dealing with our own domestic issues?  Effective health care, housing, social security etc...  We should first take care of our domestic issues and refer other nations to emulate our successful actions and/or programs.

Policing the world should not be a top priority for us.  Each nation has it's own agenda and that does not mean that their existence is to detroy America.  I also feel that if America continues to bullie these nations that the Davids will awaken and join in toppling the Goliath.

We are over taxed and the corporations have devised a way to defeat the system.  Over 20% of my income goes to taxes and that does not include purchases.  The majority to our tax dollars go to programs that we will never use and/or programs that we have never heard of.  I don't have issue with being taxed to provide for a strong and faithful military, but I do for waste.

I also believe that our country is in the mist of a deep recession, and that history has proven that war will bring the economy back.  But at what cost?

As bad as I hate to admit it I believe that we have placed ourselves (the leaders) in a position that we must wage war on Iraq. This war will be masked by showing Iraq as a bonafied threat against the safety and well being of all Americans, when in actuality it is a conflict between Bush and Hussien. This war will be a show to the world that America is the dominant power and maybe effective at some point in actually securing our country from threat. However, I have not decided my position on North Korea at this time.

We as Americans need a break not to be broken.
 

Big O

Physicist Genii
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Missed by a mile and a half.

I believe another blunder that was made was the creation of the Federal Reserve. How many people know that it is NOT a part of the US govt, that it is actually a corporation?
 

Jester0769

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as much as I hate to say it, I too feel that the U.S. is in a world of hurt. We wage war to fix the smallest of problems and to hide the biggest. Our leaders find a place to hide what thay cant fix and then start something to take our attention off of the problems that could be fixed with a little hard work and affix our eyes on something that we think we can take control of and have an "all mighty power" over being the only super power left and we the sheep feel all warm and safe while the leaders try and hide the bigger problems.

It all falls back to the old saying "the right hand doesnt have a clue on what the left hand is doing".

If the poeple had a true voice within the goverment and thay really listened to what we had to say things would be different. The problem is that to many people feel that what is goin around the world is nothing to worry over. Like it was said before we are tought to just worry over what happens in our own little world, and thats it.

If you go to Euroupe and sit at a streetside cafe you will see and hear people talkin about anything and everything that is happening around the world. Hell, thay know more about whats happening in the states than I do. I hate to say but I dont stay on top of things and I know I should but I too am one of those sheep that just worry about my own little world and nothing else matters. If Im happy then the world is happy. I know thats the wrong outlook but thats just the way I am and I was tought that way. Work hard, buy american, stay in debt and die early to pass your debt on to your kids.

I know it`s wrong but that is the way I was tought, I am trying to change but its harder than I thought it would be. But I am trying to change and pass it on to others. I know that its to little too late but Im trying.

I know that this is a rant and its off topic but its just my thoughts.

as far as war, dont start anything you cant finish and dont wage war when your out numbered like 5000 to 1 (us against china)

Just my two cents.
 

Narcissus

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Just a question, but has anyone here read any books by Robert Kiyosaki? Good reading if anyone has the time. They are not 'get-rich-quick' or 'economic dogma' books, either, just a fresh perspective that many of us never normally see. I have one in audio on my site that I dubbed from the library. If anyone wants to listen, PM or email me and I will send the links. 3 hours, 64 megs. Only ask if you genuinely want to listen to it, though, but I think some will enjoy it and find it useful.
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rgd808

Registered
This is a tough subject to reply without starting a debate..

I feel we have to go to war with Iraq, But we must be delicate enough to strike fast like a cobra with deadly force so quickly that it is over before they know what hit them.

We must keep good ties with all nieghboring countries and hold peace in the rest of the middle east.This is going to be a tough task but attainable.

North Korea I think can be worked with, without war. I believe they are more sensible and more flexible. We will need strong allies in Asia to accomplish this but I think it is also attainable.

My opinion on the US. Is very similar to most of your thoughts. We are feeding corporations and starving the uneducated.
 

rgd808

Registered
Does anyone see a pattern? The majority are taught to get a job, specialise and work for money. The rich, taught by their parents, have money work for them, they make money. You should now see that the rich get richer, while the poor get poorer
You are correct.. And you carry great knowledge that can take you to the highest peaks. If you choose to use it in your favor.

That's what I love about America. We have the oppurtunity to learn, and the Freedom to Achieve anything. There is no Fence to contain you nor a ceiling to hold you in..
 

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